Grad School or Industry: Trying to Secure My Financial Future

[twofish-quant]

Six programmers
Four engineers of other stripes
Two defense analysts
One consultant
One technician/facilities manager at a national lab
One active duty military

Also a lot of the people that went into programming did so because of the internet boom of the 1990's. When I started university, I'd never heard of the internet, and neither had 99% of the people in the world. I *couldn't* take any classes on web programming, because the web hadn't been invented.

One exercise would be to put yourself in 1987, and try to give career advice for the next thirty years out to 2017. You'll realize what an impossible task this is. Think of every historical event that happened between 1987 and 2012 and all of them radically changed the job outlook.

And, by the way, teaching high school generally requires an additional credential, but not another degree, and for high-demand subjects some states and private schools will let one pick up that creditional after being conditionally hired.

One problem with being a high school teacher is that if you are bitter about science, then it's probably better for everyone involved if you don't take the job. Also, if you are mainly concerned about money (and there is nothing wrong with that), then it's also probably better if you don't take the job.

 

[Rika]

I bet it isn't.

For instance, it could be paid for through taxation.

Ofc it is but you need to pay taxes anyway. Ppl in Us also pay taxes and yet they are in massive debt because they need to pay like 100k $ extra for their higher education.

If you want to do hobby which cost you 100k you must be very rich, otherwise it's stupid to put yourself into massive debt only to do some hobby. Especially when you have internet full of physics knowledge - books, online lectures etc.

Most ppl aren't "life - smart" enough to put their physics degree into good use. They don't have any good plan for their life either. In this situation "trade school degree" such as cs, medicine, law, engineering or being plumber is much better for them because they will end up in mcjob or IT anyway.

 

[Locrian]

Ofc it is but you need to pay taxes anyway.

Yes, but not the same amount.

So, just to be clear, the education is not free.

 

[Rika]

Yes, but not the same amount.

So, just to be clear, the education is not free.

Ok it's not free but not as expensive as in US. For me it's better to pay taxes rather than being in debt.

Which makes me wonder - if you pay low taxes you should have huge amount of money to save. If that's the case why your parents don't save for your education? 17 years is enough to collect 100k (it's like 500$ monthly).

Sorry for OT.

 

[Locrian]

By the way, I know of one example where government services were actually free, or near it – in North Korea in the late 90’s a great deal of government services were truly free. A great read with examples is the book “Nothing to Envy”, which interviews North Koreans who fled to South Korea.

One of them is a doctor. For over a year, she was not paid for her services (no food rations, etc.), though she still worked. As with many other N Koreans, she learned to eat various grasses and herbs and to maintain her own clothes and apartment. She was near death when she managed to escape to China. During that time in NK the healthcare she provided was very near free. Not exactly free, I suppose - she was still provided with housing, of sorts - but very close.

So the distinction is important. Finland does not have a free university system. The US public schools are not free. Canada and the UK do not have free healthcare (raise your hand if you’ve actually calculated the per-household cost of England’s health care).

There’s actually an acronym for this. ;)

 

[Locrian]

Ok it's not free but not as expensive as in US. For me it's better to pay taxes rather than being in debt.

Which makes me wonder - if you pay low taxes you should have huge amount of money to save. If that's the case why your parents don't save for your education? 17 years is enough to collect 100k (it's like 500$ monthly).

Well I went through the US sytem, didn't spend anywhere near 100k and the only (very small) debt I left with was related to my living standards and not my education.

So yea, if you pay lower taxes you can have the money to not go into debt.

Sorry for OT.

Me too! But the "xxxx is free in yyyyy" myths have to be vigorously stomped out.

 

[Mépris]

Okay, but is "consulting" a route that any Physics graduate (i.e, only a bachelor's degree) can look into or only Physics graduates from top 20 universities/colleges? What of oil and gas?

I understand that one could find a way into finance jobs by doing an MS degree which has good placement but I may be wrong. Thoughts on this?

Me too! But the "xxxx is free in yyyyy" myths have to be vigorously stomped out.

What if one studies in a public university in a country like France? There are minimal tuition fees, something like 200 euros per year. I'm not so sure how all these universities are run (i.e, where they get their funding) but there, uni is for everyone who passed out of high school...
Granted, it's not actually free, but it's quite close to being free.

 

[pi-r8]

Since I like data (something I picked up during my graduate school years that were, according to certain embittered individuals on this site, otherwise wasted), I checked my undergrad alma mater's alumni directory for the years around my own graduation. I looked for people who majored only in physics (no CS or engineering double majors), who had reported on their employment, and who didn't have any other degrees reported (generally people who update their profile with jobs will also update their further education). I also did a quick Google search to try to make sure (generally via LinkedIn profiles) that they had no other degree; plus I knew most of these people and whether they went to grad school (immediately out of undergrad, at least).

I found 15 people, whose most recently reported jobs break down as:

Six programmers
Four engineers of other stripes
Two defense analysts
One consultant
One technician/facilities manager at a national lab
One active duty military


And, by the way, teaching high school generally requires an additional credential, but not another degree, and for high-demand subjects some states and private schools will let one pick up that creditional after being conditionally hired.

Of course I'm not saying that no one with a physics major as ever gotten a job as an engineer or whatever. I'm saying that the physics education itself is quite unhelpful for getting jobs. Anyone with a degree in hard science is self-selected to be intelligent, hard-working, and probably from a wealthier-than-average family. All of those things are great for your career prospects, and none of them were caused by learning about quantum mechanics or how to integrate spherical coordinates.

As far as data goes, I posted this in another thread and i still think it's the best data I've seen since it avoids the self-reporting bias. It reports that physical science majors should expect to make only $20,000 after graduation, which is less than 2/3 of what computer science majors make, and probably for work that is less interesting as well.

The real question is- how many people enter physics because they want to be physicists, and how many actually achieve that goal? (and likewise for other sciences). Right now I would guess maybe 5%. Perhaps another 5% if you include people who become researchers in a different branch of science. But realistically, a teenager with a dream of becoming a physicist is about as naive as one who wants to run off to hollywood to become a movie star.

 

[pi-r8]

I know people that are working in carbon sequestration and ethanol production.

Ironically these might be the most dangerous jobs of all, because they allow the fossil fuels industry to paint itself with a thin green veneer, lulling people into a false sense of safety and stealing government funding that could have been better used for renewable energy.

Ethics becomes complicated once you realize that surrender is a bad policy. Would you rather than Iran have the ability to produce nuclear weapons while the US doesn't? I know lots of people in the military, and soldiers hate war more than most people. I happen to believe that you can't have peace unless you prepare for war. Some people disagree, but there is no need to get insulting about it.

Not trying to be insulting. But really, how many physics students do you know who really wanted to design weapons after they graduated? I guess there's a few, but most people just wanted to explore the mysteries of the universe. Of course everyone needs to do whatever is necessary to put food on the table, but it's just another sign that something is deeply wrong with the system.

Some of us were involved in keeping a bad situation from getting a lot worse. Also, I know a lot of people that are working on risk analysis and trying to figure out what happened and how to keep from having it happen again.

Of course then there are traders who are able to exploit known flaws in those risk models to boost their sharpe ratio and earn huge bonuses...

What the heck have you done? What do you want?

Of course I haven't done anything. I have plenty of ideas for how to make the world better, but no power, the power is concentrated in the hands of men who are either evil or stupid and like the world just like it is. So yes I'm frustrated and bitter, it seems there's no way to help myself without hurting someone else. I'd still like to be a scientist, and I'm sure I'd make a damn good one too, but I've given up hope that I'll ever be able to get that job. But at the very least I can try to encourage bright teenagers to make realistic plans instead of naive dreams.

Sometimes in my darker moments I think that the best thing I can do for society would be to take out as many loans as possible and spend it all, so that someone else can get a real job earning my newly-created debt money, and then get myself arrested so that a third person can get a job being my prison guard...

 

[twofish-quant]

I'm saying that the physics education itself is quite unhelpful for getting jobs. Anyone with a degree in hard science is self-selected to be intelligent, hard-working, and probably from a wealthier-than-average family. All of those things are great for your career prospects, and none of them were caused by learning about quantum mechanics or how to integrate spherical coordinates.

There are jobs out there that require you to do math similar to quantum mechanics or integrating spherical coordinates. The logic behind the physics curriculum is that you need to learn A, B, and C. If you learn A, then you can figure out B and C on your own.

As far as data goes, I posted this in another thread and i still think it's the best data I've seen since it avoids the self-reporting bias.

Those numbers seem wildly off, and a lot depends on how they count people that go to graduate school. If they are counting graduate students stipends in those statistics it's going to throw things wildly off.

The real question is- how many people enter physics because they want to be physicists, and how many actually achieve that goal? (and likewise for other sciences).

Everybody that goes to graduate school and gets a physics Ph.D. has done research.

Right now I would guess maybe 5%. Perhaps another 5% if you include people who become researchers in a different branch of science. But realistically, a teenager with a dream of becoming a physicist is about as naive as one who wants to run off to hollywood to become a movie star.

If you get to graduate school and write something publishable, then you are a physicist. I did astrophysics for a few years, and now my plan is to make a ton of money so that I can retire and do it for the rest of my life.

Also, the consolation prizes aren't that bad. OK, I'm not doing astrophysics, but someone is paying me frighteningly large sums of cash to do astrophysics-like things. Woe is me.

 

[Mépris]

One thing that's different about those fields is that basically all the students there know that the job hunt will be tough for them, so they'll spend a lot of time as undergrads specifically searching for jobs. Science students tend to assume that they'll find a job easily- even if it's "just" an engineering job- and throw themselves 100% into their studies, then get a nasty shock when they graduate and realize how impractical all the stuff they've learned really is.

Then there are not just the three routes you listed for people with a Physics BS. One could try get an internship somewhere, which is what the humanities and social science majors (apparently) do. If H&SS majors can get creative and find work not directly related to their degree, science majors can and should do the same.

http://careers.jpmorgan.com/student/jpmorgan/careers/europe/internship

On another part of their website, it is mentioned that students studying for *any* degree can apply, whether it is economics or French literature.

I'm sure there's other things graduates can do.

 

[twofish-quant]

Ironically these might be the most dangerous jobs of all, because they allow the fossil fuels industry to paint itself with a thin green veneer, lulling people into a false sense of safety and stealing government funding that could have been better used for renewable energy.

The cheap oil is gone, and the expensive oil is getting harder and harder to get. Everyone in the oil industry has realized that things are going to change, and the major oil companies are re-branding themselves as energy companies so that they can make money from whatever the new system is. Big oil is eventually become big solar or big wind.

For the most part, it's not the oil companies that are against carbon taxes or renewable energy. Having those things really doesn't hurt profits. The other thing is that it's fun to blame big oil, but big oil isn't responsible for people's driving or energy consumption habits.

But really, how many physics students do you know who really wanted to design weapons after they graduated?

If you are smart enough to do physics, then you should be smart enough to figure out *why* the government is spending a ton of money on physicists. Better bombs and toasters.

Also as far as nuclear weapons development, there is no real need right now to design new nuclear weapons and the major declared powers have agreed to freeze nuclear technology at the current levels. The big thing that people are worried about is that the US will forget how to build them. That would be bad.

I guess there's a few, but most people just wanted to explore the mysteries of the universe.

This is one of those be careful what you wish for types of things. Many of the mysteries of the universe involve things that could wreck the planet. It's really not a big planet.

Of course everyone needs to do whatever is necessary to put food on the table, but it's just another sign that something is deeply wrong with the system.

Much of the system is working as designed. One reason the United States spends so much on science and technology, is to maintain US preeminence in the world. If North Korea or Iran could build nuclear bombs and the US couldn't, the world would be very, very different, and it would be a lot worse than the current one.

If the problem with the system is lack of jobs, then pulling people out of defense, energy, and finance seems like a suicidal thing to do. Iran takes over the Middle East. You don't have the people to do domestic oil production, and then the financial system collapses from the shock.

Doesn't seem like that would leave much time for this exploring the universe thing.

Of course then there are traders who are able to exploit known flaws in those risk models to boost their sharpe ratio and earn huge bonuses...

Sure. Which is why the regulators are forcing banks to restructure themselves and put smart people in risk and then back them politically. Since 2008, the people in risk are the people that have the power since they talk to "God" (i.e. the regulators).

Will it work? No clue really.

I have plenty of ideas for how to make the world better, but no power, the power is concentrated in the hands of men who are either evil or stupid and like the world just like it is.

You have more power than you think.

Also it's not true that power is concentrated in evil or stupid people. The scary thing is that the world is run by human beings that are subject to the same good and bad aspects as any human. Also, the people that run things have no clue what to do. It's not as if there is some grand solution that evil people are keeping secret. The truth is that the people in positions of power as just as confused as everyone else.

So yes I'm frustrated and bitter, it seems there's no way to help myself without hurting someone else. I'd still like to be a scientist, and I'm sure I'd make a damn good one too, but I've given up hope that I'll ever be able to get that job.

I haven't given up. One thing that I learned was that if you don't like the rules of the game, then change the rules. If you don't like the system, then change it. If the world is run by a few powerful people, find out who they are and see if you can make friends with them. Do whatever it is that you have to do to get whatever it is that you want.

It's worked out pretty well so far. One reason that I haven't given up is that the journey is more important than the destination. Even if I don't make it to where I'm trying to go, getting there is an interesting way of spending my time on this planet.

But at the very least I can try to encourage bright teenagers to make realistic plans instead of naive dreams.

Plan for what?

If you want to do research, then get yourself into graduate school. If you go through graduate school, and you end up selling shoes at the end, then you've at least done research for a few years.

Sometimes in my darker moments I think that the best thing I can do for society would be to take out as many loans as possible and spend it all, so that someone else can get a real job earning my newly-created debt money, and then get myself arrested so that a third person can get a job being my prison guard...

If you can do nothing else, then find a nice person, get married, settle down, and raise a family. There's this obsession with career and getting a job that's unhealthy. People seem to have forgotten that you should work to live and not live to work.

 

[twofish-quant]

About the CDS story

1) One part that it was missing was that the buyers of the CDS were German banks that could use CDS as reserves because of obscure issues in German banking law
2) I doubt that anyone counted on AIG being bailed out (Freddie and Fannie were a different story) because AIG came damned close to not being bailed out.
3) exotic CDS is a dead market.

The other thing was that in 2005, we were in a "markets good, regulation bad" frame of mind, so the idea was that markets would self-correct and government regulation was unnecessary. That's not the situation we are in today, and what happens is that the risk departments of the major banks are taking orders from the banking regulators, so a lot of the games that people played in 2005 are not possible (and that's assuming that the people playing those games are still in business). One thing that's become a regulatory requirement is that anytime someone changes a production pricing model that someone in risk has to sign off. This means a lot of extra paperwork, but it also means jobs for science Ph.D.'s.

Also "huge bonuses" are something of a thing of the past. What's happened over the last few years is that bonuses have been moved to salary, and the pay in finance has gone down (and a lot of this is because of regulatory pressure). It's still good, but it's not totally insane, and the annoying part is the age at which I'll quit and do astrophysics is getting much further out than it seemed a few years ago. The good news is that the magic age of 59.5 is still there.

Personally, I'm a bit worried about the future. If things stabilize the way they are now it's not too bad, but if something unexpected happens and people go into "kill the bankers" mode, then it gets bad for me. Now if I'm out of a job and someone gives me something else to do, I won't mind. If blowing up the banks in fact helps society, then I'll figure out something. However, if the banks get blown up and it turns out that it doesn't improve things or things get worse, then it's sort of pointless.

Over the last few years, I've been involved in some lobbying (usually calling Congressmen when a bill comes up). There is a need for regulation, but some of the bills that came up were so draconian that it was more an emotional lynch mob reaction and not anyone thinking things through. In at least two instances, politicians came up with "punch the bankers" bills obviously in an effort to get re-elected. Curiously, I didn't mind being used as a human pinata. If a politician has to punch bankers to get elected, that it his job, and getting hit in the face is part of the result of living in a democracy. What seriously annoyed me was that in both cases, they punched the bankers, and ***didn't*** get reelected. (Thank you Blanche Lincoln and Gordon Brown).

A lot of politics is a big show. It's a lot like professional wrestling. But sometimes something unexpected happens. There was one incident a few years back right after the crisis in which some politicians put on a "let's punch the bankers" show. But things went unexpected, and rather than the usual "show" in which people punch each other in places that it won't do permanent damage, there was enough raw public anger that it got dangerous, since people wanted to see real blood. At that point the politicians toned things down.

One of the things that I learned out of this is that Congress-critters *will* listen to people if they are organized. If you have an idea, it's possible to be part of the political process. Personally, I thought it was a good thing when people were organizing for the "occupy Wall Street" protests, and it's a bit of a shame that they have died down. One basic problem with OWS is that they were based on a false premise that there was some magic "fix everything" button, so all you had to do was to scream loud enough and someone would press it. However, it doesn't work this way, and once it was obvious that OWS didn't have any specific plans then things died down. One irony here is that there are basically no major banks in Wall Street, and everyone has moved to Jersey City or Midtown.