Gradient of a Simple Surface at a point (without knowledge of derivative)

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the definition of the gradient of a function F at a point in the context of a simple surface, specifically without using derivatives. The original poster seeks to explore the implications of this definition and its relation to continuity.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to break down the definition of the gradient and prove its implications for continuity without resorting to derivatives. They express confusion regarding the role of the positive number c and the term ε in the definition. Other participants engage by discussing the meaning of the definition and its relation to linear approximations.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively exploring the definition and its components, with some providing insights and clarifications. There is a focus on understanding the rationale behind specific choices in the definition, such as letting y equal v, and the implications of the relationship between p and the partial derivative of F with respect to x.

Contextual Notes

The original poster references a specific source for the definition, indicating a desire to understand the material without relying on derivative concepts. This context suggests a constraint in their approach to the problem.

mathnovice1
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Homework Statement



The statement that the simple surface F has gradient at the ordered pair ((x,y),F(x,y)) of F means that there exists only one ordered number pair (p,q) such that if c is a positive number then there exists a rectangular segment , S, containing (x,y) such that, if (u,v) is in S and in the domain of F then
F(u,v) - F(x,y) = (u-x)p + (v-y)q + ε|(u,v)-(x,y)|
where ε is a number between -c and c

Homework Equations



none

The Attempt at a Solution



I realize that this is not a 'problem' per se, however I am simply trying to make sense of the definition of gradient without resorting to derivatives. I would like to prove that if F has gradient at a point then it is continuous at the point, again without using any notion of derivative, just the definition provided. But I would like to attempt to prove the implication of continuity myself.

I am simply looking for anyone to assist me to break down the definition of gradient given and understand it a little better. I have been staring at it for a few days and I am just not getting anywhere. I don't understand where the positive number c comes into play and therefore the ε as well.

Any assistance/insight/guidance would be appreciated, thanks!
 
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mathnovice1 said:

Homework Statement



The statement that the simple surface F has gradient at the ordered pair ((x,y),F(x,y)) of F means that there exists only one ordered number pair (p,q) such that if c is a positive number then there exists a rectangular segment , S, containing (x,y) such that, if (u,v) is in S and in the domain of F then
F(u,v) - F(x,y) = (u-x)p + (v-y)q + ε|(u,v)-(x,y)|
where ε is a number between -c and c

Homework Equations



none

The Attempt at a Solution



I realize that this is not a 'problem' per se, however I am simply trying to make sense of the definition of gradient without resorting to derivatives. I would like to prove that if F has gradient at a point then it is continuous at the point, again without using any notion of derivative, just the definition provided. But I would like to attempt to prove the implication of continuity myself.

I am simply looking for anyone to assist me to break down the definition of gradient given and understand it a little better. I have been staring at it for a few days and I am just not getting anywhere. I don't understand where the positive number c comes into play and therefore the ε as well.

Any assistance/insight/guidance would be appreciated, thanks!

P.S. I am getting the definition from CreativeMathematics by HS Wall on page 94

Essentially, it claims that the pair (p,q) is the gradient. Note that if you take y=v and let u → x you get F(u,y)-F(x,y) = p(u-x) + ε|u-x|. Presumably, the 'c' referred to can be any chosen positive number (and after choosing c, we get to specify the 'rectangle'). If that is what the author meant, then, of course, p will just be the partial derivative ∂F(x,y)/∂x, because [tex]\frac{F(u,y)-F(x,y)}{u-x} = p + \epsilon \frac{|u-x|}{u-x} \rightarrow p[/tex] as [itex]u \rightarrow x.[/itex] This holds because for any positive number c we have
[tex]\left|\frac{F(u,y)-F(x,y)}{u-x} -p\right| \leq |\epsilon| \leq c[/tex] for any u sufficiently near x.

RGV
 
It basically means that for any desired degree of "accuracy", which is denoted by c, the difference from any point close enough to (x, y) can be approximated by a linear function of the displacement. Which is very similar to the differential concept, except that the differential deal with infinitesimal displacements.
 
RGV - thanks for the quick reply. Your response is very helpful to me.

Can you elaborate a bit on the rationale behind letting y=v as well as how we know that the following is true:

Ray Vickson said:
This holds because for any positive number c we have
[tex]\left|\frac{F(u,y)-F(x,y)}{u-x} -p\right| \leq |\epsilon| \leq c[/tex] for any u sufficiently near x.
 
mathnovice1 said:
RGV - thanks for the quick reply. Your response is very helpful to me.

Can you elaborate a bit on the rationale behind letting y=v as well as how we know that the following is true:

I want to know if p is ∂F(x,y)/∂x, which is the x-derivative with y held fixed. So I don't want to change y to v ≠ y; I just want to change x by itself. Certainly the horizontal line segment from (x,y) to (u,y) is in the rectangle S, so I am allowed to write the first equation.

The second equation is obtained from the first one by dividing through by u-x (assuming u ≠ x, which I neglected to say).

RGV
 

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