News Health Care Reform - almost a done deal? DONE

[WhoWee]

Link to which part?

Would it be adequate if I provided links that showed that Sarah Palin's family went to Canada to get medical treatment?

Please do - and don't forget to explain the circumstances.

 

[calculusrocks]

Please do - and don't forget to explain the circumstances.

Didn't know it'd take more than a couple hours to use wikipedia.

 

[Office_Shredder]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/palin-crossed-border-for_n_490080.html

Referring to when she was a child:

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system.

"We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?"

 

[calculusrocks]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/palin-crossed-border-for_n_490080.html

Referring to when she was a child:

Huff. Post huh? Gee, I'm a little skeptical.

 

[calculusrocks]

So even taking it at face value, did she go to Canada for critical treatments such as heart surgery? Like my original question asked?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Huff. Post huh? Gee, I'm a little skeptical.

Seriously. Then why don't you look on google and find out yourself? This isn't hard. Just search for 'sarah palin went to Canada for healthcare'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000152-503544.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/03/sarah-palin-canadian-health-care.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/sarah-palin/7409555/Sarah-Palins-family-sought-health-care-in-Canada.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/palin-says-she-used-canadian-h.html
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2010/03/08/palin_went_to_canada_for_health_care.html

So even taking it at face value, did she go to Canada for critical treatments such as heart surgery? Like my original question asked?

When she was a kid, the nearest city was a Canadian city, so when they had health issues they went there for health care. She specifically cites when her brother burned his ankle and they had to rush him onto a train that was going to Canada.

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

...
When she was a kid, the nearest city was a Canadian city, so when they had health issues they went there for health care. She specifically cites when her brother burned his ankle and they had to rush him onto a train that was going to Canada.

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

How about the fact that more then 10 min without oxygen brain damage is very likely and irreversible [218]. Also that if her brother was 5 or younger, or the burn was a critical/moderate burn the risk of Shock is incredibly high [715-718]. Given these two facts the decision to transport across the border to the nearest hospital facilities was the best idea and most logical. Also even ALS services are not as good as getting someone to an ER. Paramedics are trained in stabilization, not in treatment [4-5]. Finlay when the option arises to drive X or Y amounts and X is much greater than Y you goto Y, even if it is across the Canadian border.

Information came from:
Emergency Care and treatment of the sick and injured. Ninth edition. Series Editor, Andrew N. Pollak, MD, FAAOS. Copyright 2005.

 

[Al68]

The Republican party has made its platform into the "Party of No".

Too little too late. They should have been shouting no to these kinds of attacks on liberty much louder, and much more consistently.

Republicans are the ones I blame for this. Blaming Democrats is like blaming a wolf for eating a sheep instead of blaming the shepherd for sleeping on the job.

I may be a libertarian, but I'm not so married to my ideology that I cannot make an exception.

Your position on this issue is anti-libertarian, as you know. Your positions on other issues are irrelevant to this thread.

As far the implication that anyone should be ashamed of being "married" to libertarianism, that's just silly. Libertarianism is more like a best friend with benefits. :!)

 

[Al68]

That is hardly fallacious. Countries with higher levels of centralized, governmental control of health care tend to have longer average lifespans and lower rates of infant mortality. I am eager to see how this correlation does not imply causation.

Google "logical fallacies". This is one of the most famous ones in history, that a correlation like this implies a causal relationship.

Socialist policies are not socialism.

LOL. Yep, that's why you called them socialist policies. Because they're nothing like socialism. Gotcha.

 

[calculusrocks]

Too little too late. They should have been shouting no to these kinds of attacks on liberty much louder, and much more consistently.

Republicans are the ones I blame for this. Blaming Democrats is like blaming a wolf for eating a sheep instead of blaming the shepherd for sleeping on the job.Your position on this issue is anti-libertarian, as you know. Your positions on other issues are irrelevant to this thread.

As far the implication that anyone should be ashamed of being "married" to libertarianism, that's just silly. Libertarianism is more like a best friend with benefits. :!)

Republicans hasn't exactly done very much for the liberty conscious. I'm shocked they were even able to mount a filibuster. That being said, I don't know why republicans are what come up in this debate. The democrats own congress. They own the presidency. They had 60 senators, filibuster proof majority, and yet they still blame republicans for not helping democrats trample over individual liberty.

 

[WhoWee]

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

Actually, this is an example of how a system can be abused by illegals.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I won't be able to tune in today so the anticipation will be killing me, but it looks like the Dems have the votes. YAY!

Responding to Russ's comments earlier regaring amendments, as I told him in person, no doubt we will be tweeking this for decades; and we would be no matter what passes. What matters most is that after 70 years of trying, we finally get over the hump.

This is truly an historic day.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Regarding popular opposition, when people discover that they no longer have lifetime caps; when their insurance can't be canceled because they got sick or pregnant; when they can't be refused insurance due to a preexisting condition, just as was true with the prescription drug plan, all of the Republican-created furor will fade away. Americans want what is in this bill.

I was struck by objections that while this may reduce the deficit, the overall cost of health care will increase. Given that 30 million people who have no insurance will now have coverage, of course it will cost more. The complaint seems to be that 30 million people should have no coverage if they can't afford it; that we have a $trillion to fight wars but not to protect American citizens from a corrupt, greedy, and inhumane insurance system. And perhaps that is what sours me on the Republicans more than anything: We always seem to have the money for wars but not for Americans.

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

 

[WhoWee]

Regarding popular opposition, when people discover that they no longer have lifetime caps; when their insurance can't be canceled because they got sick or pregnant; when they can't be refused insurance due to a preexisting condition, just as was true with the prescription drug plan, all of the Republican-created furor will fade away. Americans want what is in this bill.

I was struck by objections that while this may reduce the deficit, the overall cost of health care will increase. Given that 30 million people who have no insurance will now have coverage, of course it will cost more. The complaint seems to be that 30 million people should have no coverage if they can't afford it; that we have a $trillion to fight wars but not to protect American citizens from a corrupt, greedy, and inhumane insurance system. And perhaps that is what sours me on the Republicans more than anything: We always seem to have the money for wars but not for Americans.

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

How much are YOU willing to pay per year to house, feed, educate, nurture and care for others from cradle to grave Ivan? How about in YOUR lifetime - how much do you feel YOU OWE to your fellow citizen?

I assume that you (like everyone else on the PF) intend to work and contribute their "fair share" - and not sit at home and collect.

Also, how do you feel about giving more power to the IRS to enforce these mandates - and the student loan program aspects that are being included?

 

[Alfi]

how much do you feel YOU OWE to your fellow citizen?

Everything?
Individuals are an evolutionary dead end in this collective society age.

 

[mheslep]

My source is Wikipedia. My point is that the claim that "If one controls life span for these causes of death, the US is close to or at the the top" is inaccurate.

Edit: A couple of references if you are interested:

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers

See especially Table 1-3 for causes of death other than health care related, and Table 1-5 for corrected numbers.
http://www.aei.org/docLib/20061017_OhsfeldtSchneiderPresentation.pdf

Table 1-5 again, same researchers in html online
http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/09/natural-life-expectancy-in-united.html

 

[calculusrocks]

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

That is suppose to make me feel better? That my elected officials have turned me into a thief, moocher, and a child for life?

 

[calculusrocks]

Barack Obama is the [STRIKE]Commander in Chief[/STRIKE] Lollypop Distributor in Chief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8sZcmQr6KY

 

[spacemanspiff]

I guess I don't understand why people who don't have health insurance can't get it? It took me all of 30 seconds to hop on ehealthinsurance.com and find dozens of plans for under $100/m. What is the problem? The pre-existing illness is a problem and maybe we can try to cut pill costs, but we need a 2400 page new bill for that?

 

[MotoH]

Has the middle class been charged 40% more for insurance yet, or are the votes still coming in?

 

[Count Iblis]

The Third World health insurance system will finally be changed to a First World one.

 

[MotoH]

The Third World health insurance system will finally be changed to a First World one.

I didn't know first world nations turned middle class citizens into poor people.

 

[turbo]

I didn't know first world nations turned middle class citizens into poor people.

The US system turns middle-class citizens into poor citizens with every catastrophic illness. The insurance companies dump you when you get sick, and you lose everything to bankruptcy when you can't pay for care or you die. When you are older and more experienced you will gain an appreciation for this. I hope you never develop a debilitating disease, but if you do, you will gain an appreciation for this health-care bill. My wife and I both have some chronic pre-existing conditions, and if she loses her job (and her health insurance), we will never be able to buy health insurance again, at least a rates that won't bankrupt us AND with ruinous caps. So many opponents of health-care reform wave the flag and talk about how the bill is socialism. Funny, it's only socialism if it benefits somebody else.

European countries manage to provide almost universal health-care coverage at about 1/2 the cost per capita of what we spend. If the US cannot do the same, our system deserves to fail.

 

[WhoWee]

Someone just explained to me that Obama needed to include student loan reform in the health care Bill because he's going to need to train a lot of new doctors (that will work for a lot less).

 

[MotoH]

I never said the insurance system should stay they way it is. There are problems with it, and that can be fixed. But now I am paying not only for every low life piece of ****s food stamps and welfare, but their health insurance too! Where is the justice in that?

Yeah you know what, it is me first. And that is how the game of life is played. I've got enough bills to pay for already, and when I need to pay 40% more for someone who sits on their *** all day, gets a cough and goes to the doctor, it brings ME into the hole.

 

[turbo]

Someone just explained to me that Obama needed to include student loan reform in the health care Bill because he's going to need to train a lot of new doctors (that will work for a lot less).

As long as the AMA keeps throttling the graduation/residency rate, we will have shortages of doctors. Maine has a particular problem in this regard. We need general practitioners and family doctors in rural areas. Canada has similar problems, which results in Canadians in rural provinces traveling to the US for specialized care, which the Canadian health care system pays for.

 

[WhoWee]

The US system turns middle-class citizens into poor citizens with every catastrophic illness. The insurance companies dump you when you get sick, and you lose everything to bankruptcy when you can't pay for care or you die. When you are older and more experienced you will gain an appreciation for this. I hope you never develop a debilitating disease, but if you do, you will gain an appreciation for this health-care bill. My wife and I both have some chronic pre-existing conditions, and if she loses her job (and her health insurance), we will never be able to buy health insurance again, at least a rates that won't bankrupt us AND with ruinous caps. So many opponents of health-care reform wave the flag and talk about how the bill is socialism. Funny, it's only socialism if it benefits somebody else.

European countries manage to provide almost universal health-care coverage at about 1/2 the cost per capita of what we spend. If the US cannot do the same, our system deserves to fail.

I'm afraid this Bill is not going to live up to your expectations My Friend. IMO, this Bill will double the cost of health care to working people who don't qualify for public assistance.

Again, the cost per person (to the Government) for Medicare is $850 per month. Also, the Bill does not say that pre-existing conditions can't be rated. What are YOU going to do if you HAVE to purchase a Government plan and they tell you the cost is $2,500/month - or the IRS will come to visit YOU?

I am very concerned this evening.

 

[MotoH]

I'm afraid this Bill is not going to live up to your expectations My Friend. IMO, this Bill will double the cost of health care to working people who don't qualify for public assistance.

Again, the cost per person (to the Government) for Medicare is $850 per month. Also, the Bill does not say that pre-existing conditions can't be rated. What are YOU going to do if you HAVE to purchase a Government plan and they tell you the cost is $2,500/month - or the IRS will come to visit YOU?

I am very concerned this evening.

From what I have heard from my state, if the health care bill passes, for the current plan we have the rates will double, forcing us to move to a cheaper plan which covers less.

 

[WhoWee]

As long as the AMA keeps throttling the graduation/residency rate, we will have shortages of doctors. Maine has a particular problem in this regard. We need general practitioners and family doctors in rural areas. Canada has similar problems, which results in Canadians in rural provinces traveling to the US for specialized care, which the Canadian health care system pays for.

I spoke with someone last week that needs to find a new doctor.

She is on Medicare and her doctor is tired of fighting to get paid. He joined a group of "VIP Providers" who will now require their patients to pay a "VIP Fee" of $1,500 per year to join - or they will no longer be treated.

She's been with the doctor for about 12 years.

 

[MotoH]

Well I guess I should start saving up now to be able to pay for this when I graduate from college.

 

[Office_Shredder]

intrade.com says that the healthcare bill will be passed

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2010/Senate/Maps/Mar21-s.html#1

 

[WhoWee]

It's over - close the thread and turn off the lights (please).

 

[MotoH]

Tough luck. There will be immediate benefits, but as soon as 2016 (not sure if right year) rolls around, we will be paying through the nose for this.

 

[WhoWee]

Tough luck. There will be immediate benefits, but as soon as 2016 (not sure if right year) rolls around, we will be paying through the nose for this.

What "immediate benefits" do you think will be forthcoming - other than tax increases for the next 4 years? Are you referring to the tens of thousands of jobs due to Government expansion?

 

[MotoH]

What "immediate benefits" do you think will be forthcoming - other than tax increases for the next 4 years? Are you referring to the tens of thousands of jobs due to Government expansion?

I was in such a fluster, I put them in the wrong way :/ All sorts of lovely taxes and the like.

 

[Nebula815]

The Democrats just permanently destroyed the country financially. They also just brought the IRS into our lives in a new way, unless the SCOTUS can maybe overturn the mandate (I don't know). But otherwise, the debt is going to explode. IMO, the American people made a terrible mistake in their election of President Obama.

 

[MotoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp069Y_P-9M

Sheep will always follow.

 

[mheslep]

The US system turns middle-class citizens into poor citizens with every catastrophic illness. The insurance companies dump you when you get sick, and you lose everything to bankruptcy when you can't pay for care or you die. When you are older and more experienced you will gain an appreciation for this. I hope you never develop a debilitating disease, but if you do, you will gain an appreciation for this health-care bill. My wife and I both have some chronic pre-existing conditions, and if she loses her job (and her health insurance), we will never be able to buy health insurance again, at least a rates that won't bankrupt us AND with ruinous caps. So many opponents of health-care reform wave the flag and talk about how the bill is socialism. Funny, it's only socialism if it benefits somebody else.

European countries manage to provide almost universal health-care coverage at about 1/2 the cost per capita of what we spend. If the US cannot do the same, our system deserves to fail.

Why not spend some effort to see what would happen to you with exactly those chronic conditions under a European system. Step 1: rough out your lifetime income up until you became disabled and jack up the tax rates on both you and your wife's income over that time. Add a big VAT tax on any major items - house,farm,car. Then add in some downtime for http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=fr&v=74" That period where you were self-employed, acted as your own contractor - 50/50 chance it never happens. Step 2: Pick a country and check out exactly what happens for your illness. Wait-times, etc.

 

[MotoH]

Oh by the way, How do you PhD students plan on paying for health care once you get past 26?

 

[Office_Shredder]

mheslep, have you actually been to Europe? You're making it sound like the average lifestyle there is third world compared to the glorious bounty we have in America. That's simply false. Also, your random 10% unemployment stat is ridiculous: it's not true for many European nations with universal healthcare (UK, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, just to name a few from browsing that website)

MotoH, my school already provides insurance for its grad students. If you're poor enough to not be able to afford health insurance the government is supposed to help cover it under the new bill

 

[zomgwtf]

I never said the insurance system should stay they way it is. There are problems with it, and that can be fixed. But now I am paying not only for every low life piece of ****s food stamps and welfare, but their health insurance too! Where is the justice in that?

Yeah you know what, it is me first. And that is how the game of life is played. I've got enough bills to pay for already, and when I need to pay 40% more for someone who sits on their *** all day, gets a cough and goes to the doctor, it brings ME into the hole.

I live in Canada, and because I pay for health care I certainly am not in any sort of hole. In fact I don't think my life is any different from an Americans life... unless I am understanding the system wrong?

 

[MotoH]

We will be paying way more than what you are zomg.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Why do you say that?

 

[spacemanspiff]

It seems backwards that the CBO estimates the fees from people not buying coverage would raise $17 billion over 10 years. So they are expecting a bunch of money from the people they are supposed to be helping? wtf!

They are also demanding small business to provide coverage for their employees? Isn't this what got us into trouble in the first place? When people rely on companies then they feel entitled and if they get fired then they are screwed. If we get people into their own plans then they don't have to worry when they are fired. This will also free up companies with tons of extra cash.

 

[rootX]

We will be paying way more than what you are zomg.

Why do you say that?

Canada health costs are far below American (in terms of GDP %) IIRC. American Healthcare is entirely different from Canadian and cannot be addressed similarly.

 

[rootX]

Also, your random 10% unemployment stat is ridiculous: it's not true for many European nations with universal healthcare (UK, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, just to name a few from browsing that website)

What you mean by random? It's unemployment is always close to 10% which is worse than US. It has many regulations and unions.

 

[Office_Shredder]

But the entire idea behind the bill is to lower the average cost of healthcare. The system is inefficient (compared to other countries in % GDP) so the whole point is the change the system to drop the costs

root, that was for France. There are countries other than France. Go back to the website that you posted, and look up the countries that I mentioned. Their unemployment rate is no worse than the US, and in some cases far better over the period they graph

 

[calculusrocks]

But the entire idea behind the bill is to lower the average cost of healthcare. The system is inefficient (compared to other countries in % GDP) so the whole point is the change the system to drop the costs

root, that was for France. There are countries other than France. Go back to the website that you posted, and look up the countries that I mentioned. Their unemployment rate is no worse than the US, and in some cases far better over the period they graph

And the whole idea of social security was to take care of a just few years of retirement for the elderly. And the whole idea of the DMV is to process motor related forms efficiently. And the whole idea of the Post Office is... well you get the point.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Does social security NOT help pay for retirees anymore? Has the post office stopped delivering mail?

DMVs are run by state governments (which is what currently regulate health insurance), so you're hurting your point by criticizing them.

 

[calculusrocks]

The point was that government doesn't run anything efficiently by the standards of a free market. Social Security started out as a modest government program and has balooned well beyond its stated charted, and now is facing bankruptcy within a decade or two.

The post office is so badly run that it simply encourages us to use email.

The DMV is so badly run that I had to wait 4 hours in line to get license plates.

After all of the government failures, what makes people think that government control of health care is remotely a good idea?