Help on Electromagnetic Induction concept

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of electromagnetic induction, specifically the relationship between electric and magnetic fields as perceived by different observers in relative motion. Participants explore the implications of these concepts in the context of a thought experiment involving two observers measuring forces on a charged particle.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how an observer, Jill, can conclude that there is an electric force acting on a charge that appears stationary in her frame of reference.
  • Another participant explains that since Jill measures a force on the charge and it is not moving relative to her, she deduces that the force must be electric, attributing it to the time-varying magnetic field caused by the moving source.
  • A different participant comments on the complexity of the concepts being taught, suggesting that the relationship between electric and magnetic fields is a relatively advanced topic.
  • Another participant critiques the textbook's explanation, suggesting that it misrepresents the physics involved and recommends alternative texts for better understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity and accuracy of the textbook's explanation of electromagnetic induction. There is no consensus on the effectiveness of the teaching material, and participants have varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts discussed.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the challenges in understanding the relativistic nature of electric and magnetic fields, particularly in the context of different reference frames. Some assumptions about the nature of forces and fields may not be explicitly stated, leading to confusion.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in the nuances of electromagnetic theory, particularly those studying physics at an advanced level or seeking clarification on the relationship between electric and magnetic fields in different reference frames.

darkwhite87
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This is the material i read from textbook, and it doesn't make any sense to me! can somebody please help me out if they can understand the concept:

To understand electromagnetic induction, we need to reconsider the concepts of electric
and magnetic fields.

A dc current I flowing through a stationary contour C in a coordinate system
(x, y, z) produces a magnetic flux density field B. Let us look at a charged particle Q
moving at a velocity v with respect to contour C. We add a second coordinate system
(x', y', z') that moves together with the charge Q, that is, with respect to which Q is
stationary.

In our thought experiment we have two observers (electrical engineers or physicists,
of course), one stationary in (x, y, z), and the other in (xf, yf, z'). They are interested
in measuring the electric and magnetic forces acting on the charged particle

Let Jack be in the first coordinate system. His instruments record a force acting
on a moving particle. He concludes that the charge is experiencing a magnetic force
F = Qv x B, since it is moving in a time-invariant magnetic field. If the charge stops,
there is no force. Therefore, Jack's conclusion is that in his system there is no electric
field.

Jill, in the second coordinate system, comes to a different conclusion. She also
measures a force, proportional to Q, acting on the charge. However, for her the charge
is not moving. Therefore, she concludes that the force she measured is an electric one,
F = QE. She notices, of course, that this force is time-varying. She also notices that in
her system there is a time-varying magnetic field (since the source I of the magnetic
field is moving with respect to her coordinate system). Thus, Jill's conclusion is that in
her coordinate system both a time-varying electric field and a time-varying magnetic
field exist.

Let us rephrase the important conclusion we reached: a time-varying magnetic
field is accompanied by a time-varying electric field. We found this to be true in the
case of motion of the observer with respect to the source of a time-invariant magnetic
field. We shall now argue that a time-varying magnetic field is always accompanied
by a time-varying electric field, no matter what the cause of the variation of the field
is.


In red is the part which i don't get, if the charge is not moving with respect to her, how can she conclude there is a electric force??
 
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That's how she concludes. Since it's not moving (to her) and there IS a force, and since only motion causes forces on charges in magnetic fields, it MUST be an electric field.

The next line says: " she notices, of course, that this force is time-varying. She also notices that in her system there is a time-varying magnetic field (since the source I of the magnetic field is moving with ..." So, the moving source of I is the cause of the electric field that Jill concludes must be there.



They sure make you guys jump through hoops in school these days.
 
Paulanddiw said:
They sure make you guys jump through hoops in school these days.
That a magnetic field is just a relativistic view of an electric field is a fairly advanced concept.
 
Wow!

The measurement of either electricity or magnetism depending on relative velocity is, of course, well known. But, I have to point out that the person who wrote this textbook has done physics a great disservice. May I suggest either Jackson or Lorrain and Corson? Or, of course, the good old book, Feynman Lecures II.
 

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