Help understanding proof involving Maxwell equation

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    Maxwell Proof
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding a proof involving Maxwell's equations, specifically focusing on a step in the derivation that relates to the curl of the electric field and its time derivative. Participants explore the mathematical reasoning behind the proof and clarify the conditions under which certain operations are valid.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on a step in the proof that involves the equality of the time derivative of the curl of the electric field and the curl of the time derivative of the electric field.
  • Another participant asserts that time derivatives commute with the curl, suggesting that this can be verified through direct calculation.
  • A third participant provides additional context by restating the wave equation and the relationships between the curl of the magnetic field and the electric field, emphasizing the zero divergence of the magnetic field.
  • A fourth participant references Clairaut's theorem to support the claim that continuous partial derivatives commute, which is relevant to the discussion of the proof.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical principles involved, such as the commutation of partial derivatives. However, the initial participant's uncertainty about the validity of a specific step in the proof indicates that the discussion remains unresolved regarding that particular aspect.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on the assumptions of continuity and differentiability of the functions involved, as well as the specific conditions under which the mathematical operations are applied.

U.Renko
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help understanding "proof" involving Maxwell equation

I'm currently taking a course on mathematical methods for physics.
(Like always I'm a bit confused about where exactly I should post these questions, should it go to the homework forum? )


anyway as I was reading the lecture notes I found this demonstration that if [itex]\vec{J} = 0[/itex] in Maxwell-Ampere's law satisfies the wave equation: [itex]\left( \frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial t^2} - \nabla^2 \right)\vec B = \vec 0[/itex] :

There is one small step I'm not sure why/how he did it.

he took the curl of [itex]\nabla \times\vec B[/itex], that is, [itex]\nabla\times\left(\nabla\times\vec B \right) = \nabla\left(\nabla\cdot\vec B\right) - \nabla^2\vec B[/itex]

then since [itex]\nabla\cdot\vec B = 0[/itex] and [itex]\nabla\times\vec B = \mu_0\epsilon_0\frac{\partial\vec E}{\partial t}[/itex] he says [itex]\nabla\times\left(\nabla\times\vec B \right) = \nabla\left(\mu_0\epsilon_0\frac{\partial\vec E}{\partial t}\right) = \mu_0\epsilon_0\left(\nabla\times\frac{\partial\vec E}{\partial t}\right)[/itex]

so far I understand everything, but now he says:
[itex]\mu_0\epsilon_0\left(\nabla\times\frac{\partial\vec E}{\partial t}\right) = \mu_0\epsilon_0\frac{\partial\left(\nabla\times\vec E\right)}{\partial t}[/itex] and it is this very last step that I'm not sure if it's allowed. And if is, why it is?

the rest of the demonstration follows easily, supposing this last step is correct.
 
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That step just says that time derivatives commute with the curl. You should try this out for yourself and see that it is so. (Basically it's true simply because partial derivatives commute and the basis vectors are not time-dependent.)

Just write out the curl of E, take the time derivative. Then write out the curl of the time derivative of E and they are identical.
 
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You missed one:
$$ \left( \frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial t^2}-\nabla^2 \right)\vec B = 0\\
\implies \frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial t^2}\vec B =\nabla^2\vec B\\
\implies \frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial t^2}\vec B = \nabla(\nabla\cdot\vec B)-\nabla\times (\nabla\times \vec B)$$

Note:
$$\nabla\cdot\vec B = 0\\
\nabla\times \vec B = \mu_0\epsilon_0\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec E\\
\nabla\times \vec E = -\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec B$$

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=m...0j5j0j69i60.3357j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
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By Cairault's theorem [see http://calculus.subwiki.org/wiki/Clairaut's_theorem_on_equality_of_mixed_partials] continuous partial derivatives commute.
 
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