Help with Euler Lagrange equations: neighboring curves of the extremum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Euler-Lagrange equations and the conditions under which the parameter \( u \) can be considered small in the context of Taylor expansions and functional derivatives. Participants explore the implications of this assumption and its necessity for deriving the equations, as well as alternative approaches to understanding the problem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the smallness of \( u \) is sometimes justified by Taylor expansion, while questioning its necessity in the context of specific equations.
  • Another participant argues that neglecting higher-order terms in the Taylor series is only valid if \( u \) is small, emphasizing the need for this condition in deriving the Euler-Lagrange equations.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that the equations should hold regardless of the size of \( u \), proposing that a first-order Taylor expansion is exact and can be used to prove necessary conditions without assuming \( u \) is small.
  • One participant presents an alternative method for finding extrema of functions, detailing the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations through the evaluation of a functional derivative and integration by parts, asserting that this method is easier to understand.
  • Another participant expresses confidence in understanding the alternative method but struggles with the approach presented in their study guide.
  • A later reply questions the validity of a previous participant's proof, suggesting that their calculations implicitly assume the size of \( u \) and thus may not be as independent of this condition as claimed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the necessity of \( u \) being small for the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations. Some argue it is essential, while others believe the equations can be derived without this assumption. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific equations and mathematical formulations, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of \( u \) and the implications of Taylor series truncation. The discussion also highlights varying interpretations of the derivation process and its prerequisites.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and researchers interested in variational calculus, the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations, and the implications of assumptions in mathematical modeling.

Reuben_Leib
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Euler Lagrange equations
I tried writing this out but I think there is a bug or something as its not always displaying the latex, so sorry for the image.
I have gone through various sources and it seems that the reason for u being small varies. Sometimes it is needed because of the taylor expansion, this time (below) is "needed" for equations(2.18) and (2.21). I provided all the information I think you may need. So in this case, why must u be small?

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The unsoken assumption is that you are truncating the taylor series of x(t,u) with respect to u about u = 0: <br /> x(t, u) = x(t,0) + u\left.\frac{\partial x}{\partial u}\right|_{u = 0} + \frac12 u^2 \left.\frac{\partial^2 x}{\partial u^2}\right|_{u = 0} + \dots where here \eta = \left.\frac{\partial x}{\partial u}\right|_{u=0}. The neglect of the higher order terms is only justified if u is small. But really what you are looking for to derive the Euler-Lagrange equations is a functional derivative at x in the direction of \eta, <br /> \delta I = \lim_{u \to 0} \frac{I[x + u\eta] - I[x]}{u} = \left(\left.\frac{d}{du}I[x + u\eta]\right|_{u = 0}\right) <br /> and in this formulation x(t,u) = x(t,0) + u \eta(t) is exact, not approximate.
 
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Thank you pasmith for your reply, From my understanding I believe that equations(2.18) and (2.21) should hold regardless of the size of ##u##? Maybe I am not understanding taylor series correctly, but I thought that for an example a first order taylor expansion: $$I(u) = I(0) + uI'(0) + \frac{I''(\epsilon)}{2}u^2$$ where ##\epsilon \in [0,u]##, is exact?

standardly let: $$I(u) = I(0) + uI'(0) + O(u^2)$$

The I can go on to prove the(the necessary condition) that ##\delta I = 0## :

Suppose $I(0)$ is the extremum is a minimum, then proof by contradiction: let $I'(0) > 0$.
Let ##C## be chosen so that ##C \geq \frac{I''(\epsilon)}{2}## for all ##u \in [-U,U]##, thus we get ##Cu^2 \geq \frac{I''(\epsilon)}{2}u^2 = O(u^2)##.
Now we can get ##|I(u)-I(0)-uI'(0)| = O(u^2) \leq Cu^2##
Now let ##u<0##
As ##I'(0)## is a constant(not dependent on ##u##),chose ##u## such that ##C|u|=\frac{I'(0)}{4} < \frac{I'(0)}{2}##
Letting ##C|u| \leq \frac{I'(0)}{2}##, thus ##-\frac{I'(0)}{2}\leq Cu \leq \frac{I'(0)}{2}##, thus ##-u\frac{I'(0)}{2}\geq Cu^2 \geq \frac{I'(0)}{2}u##, because ##u<0##.
Now as ##|I(u) -I(0) - uI'(0)|\leq Cu^2##, thus ##-Cu^2\leq I(u) -I(0) - uI'(0)\leq Cu^2##. Taking ##I(u)\leq I(0) + uI'(0)+Cu^2##. and ##Cu^2\leq-u\frac{I'(0)}{2}## we get:##I(u)\leq I(0) + uI'(0)+Cu^2\leq f(0) + u\frac{I'(0)}{2}< I(0)##
Thus ##I(0)## can't be minimum, hence ##I'(0) \leq 0##, similar to prove for maximum ##I'(0) \geq 0##, thus ##I'(0) = 0##
So this proves that ##I'(0) = 0##.

So from this I believe that I proved then necessary condition without the use of ##u## being small?
 
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It's much easier to argue just with the finding of extrema of functions of a real variable. You simply define
$$F(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d} t [L(\vec{x} + u \vec{\eta},\dot{\vec{x}}+u \dot{\vec{\eta}}].$$
Then for this to get extremal at ##\eta=0## you must have
$$F'(u)|_{u=0}=0.$$
Evaluate the derivative
$$F'(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d}t \left [\vec{\eta} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}} + \dot{\vec{\eta}} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}} \right].$$
Next you use that in the Hamilton principle (in Lagrangian form) the endpoints of the trajectories under consideration are held fixed, i.e., you have ##\vec{\eta}(t_1)=\vec{\eta}(t_2)=0##. Then you can integrate the 2nd contribution by parts and get
$$F'(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d}t \vec{\eta} \cdot \left [\frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}} - \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}} \right].$$
Now set ##u## to 0 and then, because ##F'(u=0)=0## must hold for all trajectories ##\vec{\eta}(t)##, the bracket in the integral must vanish (this is known as the "fundamental theorem of variational calculus"), which leads to the Euler-Lagrange equations,
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}}.$$
 
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vanhees71 said:
It's much easier to argue just with the finding of extrema of functions of a real variable. You simply define
$$F(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d} t [L(\vec{x} + u \vec{\eta},\dot{\vec{x}}+u \dot{\vec{\eta}}].$$
Then for this to get extremal at ##\eta=0## you must have
$$F'(u)|_{u=0}=0.$$
Evaluate the derivative
$$F'(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d}t \left [\vec{\eta} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}} + \dot{\vec{\eta}} \cdot \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}} \right].$$
Next you use that in the Hamilton principle (in Lagrangian form) the endpoints of the trajectories under consideration are held fixed, i.e., you have ##\vec{\eta}(t_1)=\vec{\eta}(t_2)=0##. Then you can integrate the 2nd contribution by parts and get
$$F'(u)=\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \mathrm{d}t \vec{\eta} \cdot \left [\frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}} - \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}} \right].$$
Now set ##u## to 0 and then, because ##F'(u=0)=0## must hold for all trajectories ##\vec{\eta}(t)##, the bracket in the integral must vanish (this is known as the "fundamental theorem of variational calculus"), which leads to the Euler-Lagrange equations,
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\partial L}{ \partial \dot{\vec{x}}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \vec{x}}.$$
This is the problem I have, I 100% understand this method(also the one from wikipedia), but the one my studyguide gives me I can't understand.
 
Reuben_Leib said:
So from this I believe that I proved then necessary condition without the use of ##u## being small?
Sure? I don't follow your calculation in detail, but you set
$$
\dfrac{I'(0)}{2}\geq C\cdot |u| \geq \dfrac{I''(\varepsilon )}{2}|u|\text{ and so } \dfrac{I'(0)}{I''(\varepsilon }\geq |u|>0
$$
so you already assumed the size of ##u##.
 

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