High-heeled shoes and evolution theory.

[Jimmy Snyder]

Scientists don't do research on fashion, AFAIK.

A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown.

 

[Andre]

LOL, you expect a peer reviewed scientific journal to have research on high heels?

Morris, P.H, J. White, E. R. Morrison, K. Fisher, 2013; High heels as supernormal stimuli: How wearing high heels affects judgements of female attractiveness, Evolution & Human Behavior, PII: S1090-5138(12)00122-5 doi:10.1016/j.evolhumbehav.2012.11.006

 

[BobG]

What we need is a peer reviewed article comparing the length of the 2nd finger to the 4th finger for high heel wearers to high heel non-wearers. That should provide some insight into the motivation to wear high heels.

While we have peer reviewed articles for high heels and peer reviewed articles for what the 2D/4D ratio means, no one has addressed how 2D/4D ratio affects the tendency to wear high heels.

 

[D H]

LOL, you expect a peer reviewed scientific journal to have research on high heels?

Social scientists study all kinds of weird stuff. High heels? Open toed shoes? Falsies? They're all fair game in the weird world of the social sciences.High heels aid in attracting a good mate.
E.O. Smith (1999). High Heels and evolution: natural selection, sexual selection, and high heels. Psychology, Evolution, and Gender, 1 (3), 245-277.

While it is unlikely that there is a gene for wearing high heels, the tendency to wear high heels under certain social conditions may be a manifestation of a larger pattern of behavior associated with mate attraction.​

High heels help women get help from men.
M.B.Harris and G.Bails (1973). Altruism and sex roles. Psychological Reports, 32, 1002.

It appears that the likelihood of an altruistic response is indeed affected by sex-role stereotypes. Women wearing feminine attire [ruffled blouse, high heels, and curly hair] are more likely to be helped, particularly if they make a feminine request for help ["My shopping cart is stuck. Can you help me?"]​

Related: Falsies also help women get help from men.
N.Guéguen (2007). Bust size and hitchhiking: a field study. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 105 (3), 1294-1298.

To test the effect of a woman's bust size on the rate of help offered, 1200 male and female French motorists were tested in a hitchhiking situation. A 20-yr.-old female confederate wore a bra which permitted variation in the size of cup to vary her breast size. She stood by the side of a road frequented by hitchhikers and held out her thumb to catch a ride. Increasing the bra-size of the female-hitchhiker was significantly associated with an increase in number of male drivers, but not female drivers, who stopped to offer a ride.​

Or maybe women wear high heels because foot fetishes are safe sex?
A.J.Giannini et al. (1998). Sexualization of the female foot as a response to sexually transmitted epidemics: a preliminary study. Psychological Reports, 83 (2), 491-498.

The authors reviewed historical literature and hypothesized a relationship between epidemics of sexually transmitted diseases and foot fetishism. They tested this hypothesis by quantifying foot-fetish depictions in the mass-circulation pornographic literature during a 30-yr. interval. An exponential increase was noted during the period of the current AIDS epidemic. The authors offer reasons for this possible relationship.​

 

[zoobyshoe]

;4270841length of the 2nd finger to the 4th finger

Hehe. That paper's incendiary. I'm going to be checking out people's finger lengths from now on.

 

[Evo]

Social scientists study all kinds of weird stuff. High heels? Open toed shoes? Falsies? They're all fair game in the weird world of the social sciences.

For some reason, I never think about "social sciences". Thanks DH!

 

[jim hardy]

History of high heels according to the BBC.

Given title of this thread I'm surprised nobdy pounced on these from Ibix's link:

Biology Dr Helen Fischer, a biological anthropologist at Rutgers University, says that heels force women into a "natural courting pose" found amongst mammals, with an arched back and protruding buttocks

That sounds taboo to me.

But taboos are great producers of revenue.

Association Elizabeth Semmelhack believes that high heels began to be seen as erotic footwear when they came back into fashion in the late 19th Century - the nude models on French postcards were often wearing them

I'm not that old. My memory spans roughly Bettie Page to Dita Von Teese.I would observe we Americans have in recent decades perfected the art(?) of exaggeration.
Here's a sweet picture of ( i think) Lady Gaga in high heels:

courtesy these folks: http://popcrush.com/lady-gaga-craziest-heels-picture-picture-perfect/

You know, they just don't make nostalgia like they used to.

 

[Drakkith]

I counter that exaggeration with my simple style Jimmy. I call it "Pants? Not at home."

 

[lisab]

Not being male, I don't understand the attraction. But hey, whatever decreases μ for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfMO2R7u44

 

[Astronuc]

Not being male, I don't understand the attraction.

Being male, I don't understand the attraction.

That video is hideous.

http://omg.yahoo.com/photos/what-were-they-thinking-2013-slideshow/
The high healed shoes in the first image are just plain absurd.
Need I say more.

 

[Evo]

http://omg.yahoo.com/photos/what-were-they-thinking-2013-slideshow/
The high healed shoes in the first image are just plain absurd.
Need I say more.

Not only are the shoes ugly, they're not the right size and her feet are REALLY ugly.

 

[Drakkith]

You know, I read somewhere, perhaps on this very forum, that Women don't dress up for Men, they dress up for other Women.

 

[jim hardy]

...

http://omg.yahoo.com/photos/what-were-they-thinking-2013-slideshow/
The high healed shoes in the first image are just plain absurd.
...

Au contraire, they're quite practical.
She could kill a cockroach in a corner.

 

[Evo]

Au contraire, they're quite practical.
She could kill a cockroach in a corner.

And afterward, she can pick her teeth.

 

[drizzle]

Not being male, I don't understand the attraction. But hey, whatever decreases μ for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfMO2R7u44

... Is it made for a horror/zombie movie?

And afterward, she can pick her teeth.

 

[Astronuc]

He's a lumberjack, and he's OK; he wears "high heels, suspenders, and a bra"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo

 

[WannabeNewton]

He's a lumberjack, and he's OK; he wears "high heels, suspenders, and a bra"

Oh god I remember when I first saw this Monty Python masterpiece I couldn't stop laughing until my stomach got knotted up and it started hurting. We need a Monty Python subforum!

 

[NemoReally]

Not being male, I don't understand the attraction. But hey, whatever decreases μ for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfMO2R7u44

Hence proving there is no idea that somebody, somewhere cannot extend beyond the bounds of rationality, practicality or stupidity.

LOL, you expect a peer reviewed scientific journal to have research on high heels?

Actually, I did. Apart from, as did you, noting that there is bound to have been the odd social "scientist" writing papers on such things, I wondered if somebody in the fashion industry had thought of seeing if science could provide an improved ROI. There's a lot of money involved and trimming a few euros off the budget by targeting design appeal parameters could be worth it.

Scientists don't do research on fashion, AFAIK. Peer reviewed sicentific journals are needed if you are referring to a scientific study, or something that should be.

Just to add to the other sources, I give you ...
Fashion Theory - "A fine addition to academic institutions with cultural studies programs; essential for those with special collections in fashion and costume.": http://www.bergpublishers.com/bergjournals/fashiontheory/tabid/524/default.aspx

http://www.bergpublishers.com/BergJournals/FashionPractice/tabid/3730/Default.aspx

Catwalk: The Journal of Fashion, Beauty, and Style, part of the Global Interdisciplinary Research Studies series, is an externally peer reviewed inter- and trans-disciplinary journal, published twice a year (with an optional 'special edition' some years). Catwalk publishes articles focused on the historical, social, cultural, psychological, political, business, media, technology, performance, representational, and artistic dimensions of fashion, beauty, and style. Our starting point is that fashion, beauty, and style lie at the very heart of persons, their sense of identity and individual expressiveness, and that all three influence the communities and world in which they live. Core themes explored by the journal include: the dressed and undressed body; adulated, marginal, and deviant bodies; beauty standards; fashion and style trends; and performance and self-fashioning through dress and body modification. Other topics Catwalk examines include the fashion-beauty-style industrial consumer complex; the social construction of glamour and icons; and the influence of race, ethnicity, nation, class, age, sexuality on discourses about, representations of, and the identity construction of fashion-beauty-style. We are interested in the roles of fashion, beauty, and style in the formation of identities, subcultures, communities, cities, and nations; and their influence in art, pop culture, celebrity culture, film, multi-media internet games, and the blogosphere. :http://www.interdisciplinarypress.net/index2.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=71&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=28

Au contraire, they're quite practical.
She could kill a cockroach in a corner.

I believe such a style has been popular throughout the ages for winkle-picking as well

You know, I read somewhere, perhaps on this very forum, that Women don't dress up for Men, they dress up for other Women.

I did a quick straw poll amongst the wives in my household. 100 % of them answered that women dress up for both.

I also did a quick survey amongst the wives and 12-year old daughters in my household. Both of them agreed that "subservient" is not a word that they would associate with the wearing of high heels. In fact, my daughter positively grinned with delight as she put on a pair of quite low heels and looked me in the eye (yes, she's quite tall for her age and she likes her ballet points for the same reason).

 

[HeLiXe]

And afterward, she can pick her teeth.

 

[hxtasy]

King Louis had invented high heels for himeself because he was so short.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France

he also looked Fabbbbbuuloooussss

and evolutionary wise, women do the peacocking not the males, which is different than majority of animals.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

and evolutionary wise, women do the peacocking not the males, which is different than majority of animals.

Sexual dimorphism in the animal world is not comparable to human cultural rituals and fashion. For obvious reasons all human behaviours are far more complicated and we should be careful when drawing straight comparisons to animals.

 

[I like Serena]

Sexual dimorphism in the animal world is not comparable to human cultural rituals and fashion. For obvious reasons all human behaviours are far more complicated and we should be careful when drawing straight comparisons to animals.

I tend to disagree. I do believe that humans are generally more distant from there instincts.
But those instincts are there! And they have far more influence than you may acknowledge.
In the end we aren't above those animals that you disparage so easily.
And those complications that you mention are more of illusions that hide what is really going on.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I tend to disagree. I do believe that humans are generally more distant from there instincts.
But those instincts are there! And they have far more influence than you may acknowledge.
In the end we aren't above those animals that you disparage so easily.
And those complications that you mention are more of illusions that hide what is really going on.

You've missed my point and seem to have made one up that I didn't say. I was specifically referring to direct comparisons like the peacock one above to human fashion and behaviour. The wearing of any clothing item is not comparable to biological features whose purpose is mate attraction.

 

[I like Serena]

You've missed my point and seem to have made one up that I didn't say. I was specifically referring to direct comparisons like the peacock one above to human fashion and behaviour. The wearing of any clothing item is not comparable to biological features whose purpose is mate attraction.

My point is that I believe we can draw straight comparisons and I believe it applies just as much to human fashion and behavior.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Does a peacock pluck its own feathers and replace them with fake ones in order to attract a female?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

My point is that I believe we can draw straight comparisons and I believe it applies just as much to human fashion and behavior.

Make your case. How does fashion, a social construct with a variety of purposes, directly compare to sexually selected sexual dimorphism?

 

[dlgoff]

Does a peacock pluck its own feathers and replace them with fake ones in order to attract a female?

Someone does.

 

[jim hardy]

Go into a jumpin' bar around eleven PM. It's like watching a nature show.

You'll see dominant males looking to fight.
You'll see hyenas swiping people's drinks.
You'll see predators looking for easy prey.
You'll see fearful critters hiding behind mirrored shades..
You'll see busy bees buzzing around looking for a flower to pollenate.
You'll see flowers looking to get pollenated.

It's in 'Closing Time', by Leonard Cohen...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Someone does.

That's what I meant. People do that. We hide our natural appearance and replace it with an unnatural one in order to attract the opposite sex. Are there other examples of that in other species.

 

[dlgoff]

That's what I meant. People do that. We hide our natural appearance and replace it with an unnatural one in order to attract the opposite sex.

Exactly.

 

[g.lemaitre]

I thought you weren't allowed to discuss evolution theory on this forum

 

[dlgoff]

Go into a jumpin' bar around eleven PM. It's like watching a nature show.

You'll see dominant males looking to fight.
You'll see hyenas swiping people's drinks.
You'll see predators looking for easy prey.
You'll see fearful critters hiding behind mirrored shades..
You'll see busy bees buzzing around looking for a flower to pollenate.
You'll see flowers looking to get pollenated.

It's in 'Closing Time', by Leonard Cohen...

Jim. High heels don't matter there.

http://www.planetperplex.com/img/6beers.gif http://www.planetperplex.com/img/6beers_expl.gif

 

[Containment]

It's a justifiable reason to have an extra 200 pair of shoes.

 

[lisab]

I thought you weren't allowed to discuss evolution theory on this forum

Evolution is open - creationism is not.

But we're talking shoes. For some reason.

 

[lisab]

Jim. High heels don't matter there.

http://www.planetperplex.com/img/6beers.gif http://www.planetperplex.com/img/6beers_expl.gif

Hmm, linkies don't work for me.

 

[dlgoff]

Hmm, linkies don't work for me.

Probably just as well. I figured a mentor must have removed them.

 

[g.lemaitre]

Evolution is open - creationism is not.

.

What do you mean by open? Is true the same thing as open?

 

[lisab]

What do you mean by open? Is true the same thing as open?

Open means it's open for discussion. Of course the Biology forum is the place for those discussions. And I strongly suggest you read this first :

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=543950

 

[zoobyshoe]

Not being male, I don't understand the attraction. But hey, whatever decreases μ for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfMO2R7u44

Being male, I don't understand the attraction.

That video is hideous.

Hence proving there is no idea that somebody, somewhere cannot extend beyond the bounds of rationality, practicality or stupidity.

I have to check because it's not clear to me: you guys all realize those shoes in the video aren't intended to be attractive, right, that they're meant to be hideous?

 

[NemoReally]

Hence proving there is no idea that somebody, somewhere cannot extend beyond the bounds of rationality, practicality or stupidity.

I have to check because it's not clear to me: you guys all realize those shoes in the video aren't intended to be attractive, right, that they're meant to be hideous?

Umm .. just a few observations

1. My quote doesn't really care whether the idea is teasingly or unknowingly extended beyond said bounds. However, Murphy's Law guarantees somebody, somewhere will actually think it's a good idea.
2. They're not really high heels so much as ballet points with a shin-connected balancing mechanism.
3. They look a little too well designed otherwise to be deliberately hideous, although that could part of the intent ...
4. Comments about the shoe from this link: http://www.designboom.com/design/leanie-van-der-vyver-scary-beautiful/

leanie van der vyver: scary beautiful
Oct 06, 2012

cape town-based designer leanie van der vyver has conceived and collaborated with dutch designer and shoe fabricator rené van den berg to execute 'scary beautiful', a pair of shoes for women which reverses the expected location of the heels and insole. the user must point their foot to insert into the shoe's modified vamp which is inclined forward and tapers down to the toebox. the foot rests upon a platformed toebox and is stabilized within the glove-like shoe with a brace which wraps the ankle and is secured with buckles. Spreading up the front of the shin, an angled heel projects from a tract of suede to support the individual. these 'high-toed' pumps instead position the leather sole to cover the arch of the foot.

'humans are playing God by physically and metaphorically perfecting themselves. beauty is currently at an all time climax, allowing this project to explore what lies beyond perfection. scary beautiful challenges current beauty ideals by inflicting an unexpected new beauty standard.' -leanie van der vyver

The problem I often have is distinguishing in such cases between somebody's tongue being firmly in their cheek and it being "real" - I refer back to my original point!

5. I bet 'elf and safety would have burst even major artery in their collective bodies for the filming but wouldn't bat an eyelid if your local shoe shop started stocking them. Lawyers, OTOH, would be licking their collective lips like cats given the keys to the creamery waiting for the first stumble.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

That's what I meant. People do that. We hide our natural appearance and replace it with an unnatural one in order to attract the opposite sex. Are there other examples of that in other species.

There's a huge common fallacy here: that the primary or sole purpose of fashion is mate attraction. Just thinking about it for a short while is enough to show that's not true. Fashion has many purposes related to human social interaction separate from mate attraction. We dress in certain ways for social admiration, comformity, self expression and to look attractive even if we don't want to attract anyone (for example many of my friends dress up beautifully when we go out even though they aren't single and aren't looking to attract anyone).

I'm always concerned when conversation about fashion draws straight line comparisons to animal behaviour because the conclusion that certain items of clothing are mainly worn to attract mates sounds subtly sinister and reminiscent of many rape culture apologetics.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

That doesn't answer my question. After all, the fallacy that mate attraction is never the purpose of fashion is by no means a common one.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

That doesn't answer my question.

I wasn't attempting to answer one. What was your question?

After all, the fallacy that mate attraction is never the purpose of fashion is by no means a common one.

I didn't say fashion never plays a role in attracting someone, I said that it is not the primary or sole purpose of fashion. This is a very important distinction when trying to compare sexual dimorphism for mate attraction and specifics of human fashion.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I wasn't attempting to answer one. What was your question?

You quoted it yourself.

That's what I meant. People do that. We hide our natural appearance and replace it with an unnatural one in order to attract the opposite sex. Are there other examples of that in other species.

I find no evidence of the fallacy you mentioned.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I wonder, how does one find clothing attractive? The only way I could see it being attractive is if it covers up the faces of people who put on 10 pounds of make - up *shudders*.

 

[zoobyshoe]

1. My quote doesn't really care whether the idea is teasingly or unknowingly extended beyond said bounds. However, Murphy's Law guarantees somebody, somewhere will actually think it's a good idea...
...The problem I often have is distinguishing in such cases between somebody's tongue being firmly in their cheek and it being "real" - I refer back to my original point!

I think you're jumping the gun, though, running ahead to predict some second party's reaction to the shoes. I'm simply concerned whether the people here watching it understood that the maker of the video was presenting a sort of mockery, or caricature, and was absolutely not endorsing the shoes. That was extremely clear to me from the laborious exploration of the model's discomfiture walking in them. The person(s) who planned and shot this film were obviously not trying to sell people on the idea of these shoes.

Whether some fringe group might go on to adopt them for their own reasons (masochism?) is a separate issue.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Just thinking about it for a short while is enough to show that's not true. Fashion has many purposes related to human social interaction separate from mate attraction. We dress in certain ways for social admiration, comformity, self expression and to look attractive even if we don't want to attract anyone (for example many of my friends dress up beautifully when we go out even though they aren't single and aren't looking to attract anyone).

It could be argued, though, that this is a long term mate attraction strategy as opposed to an occasional one. If you have a mate, you'd want to sustain their interest by reinforcing your attractiveness and status when the opportunity arises, and, by extention, constantly maintain your attractiveness in the event you ever need to find a new mate, for whatever reason. "Just thinking about it for a short while is enough to show" this makes sense.

 

[mheslep]

Apropos. Little or no connection to male attraction here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LVptO7o4L8

 

[Norman]

Having been gone from PF for a while, seeing this high heel thread felt like deja vu (all over again ). I could swear I had seen this discussion before on here so I did a little digging:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=357515&highlight=high+heels

The cycles of PF...

 

[InvalidID]

Having been gone from PF for a while, seeing this high heel thread felt like deja vu (all over again ). I could swear I had seen this discussion before on here so I did a little digging:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=357515&highlight=high+heels

The cycles of PF...

It's irritating since this isn't the only thread that is recycled.