High resistance components in low frequency cutoff butterworth

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design of a low-pass Butterworth filter with a cutoff frequency of 50Hz, specifically addressing the challenges posed by the high resistance of inductors used in the circuit. Participants explore various design considerations, including the impact of component resistance on filter performance and potential alternative configurations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the high resistance of the inductors significantly alters the expected output of the filter simulation.
  • Another suggests considering an active filter design, specifically mentioning the Sallen–Key topology, to eliminate the need for inductors.
  • A request for the circuit diagram is made to provide more tailored suggestions, with a mention of possibly replacing resistors with capacitors and inductors with resistors.
  • One participant introduces the concept of pre-distortion as a technique to address the issues caused by the low Q of the inductors, while also suggesting that better inductors may be necessary.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the size of the inductor, with one participant commenting on the implications of using a large inductance value.
  • A recommendation is made to increase capacitance values and reduce inductor values, proposing a redesign to a Pi configuration for cost efficiency.
  • Questions are posed about the choice of inductors and the current requirements of the filter.
  • Discussion includes the importance of matching source and load impedances in filter design, highlighting that impedance values also influence component selection.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on how to address the challenges posed by high resistance components in the filter design. There is no consensus on a single approach, as multiple competing ideas and suggestions are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of using real inductors with high resistance and the potential need for better components. The discussion also reflects uncertainty regarding the feasibility of certain design changes and the implications of impedance matching.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in filter design, particularly those working with low-pass Butterworth filters, as well as those exploring the effects of component resistance on circuit performance.

mehrlin
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I just recently built a low-pass butterworth filter with a cutoff of 50Hz. When I looked to purchase the parts, I noticed that each inductor had a resistance of several hundred ohms. I put this information into my simulator program and the result was something that looks nothing like the expected output.

How would I design a new filter that takes into account the resistances native to each part?
 
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mehrlin said:
I just recently built a low-pass butterworth filter with a cutoff of 50Hz. When I looked to purchase the parts, I noticed that each inductor had a resistance of several hundred ohms. I put this information into my simulator program and the result was something that looks nothing like the expected output.

How would I design a new filter that takes into account the resistances native to each part?

Does the filter have to be non-powered? If not, consider an active filter version; You can even do away with the inductors! Look up the keywords: "Sallen–Key topology Butterworth".
 
If you would be willing to post your circuit we may be able to offer suggestions. For instance, have you considered replacing your resistors with capacitors and your inductors with resistors?
 
Here's a picture. Unfortunately, going active will not be an option because supplying power to the op-amp will not be feasible.

I'm unfamiliar with switching out components like you mentioned. Can you elaborate?The resistor at the end of the circuit is simulating the load, and so can't be changed
 

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Since filters made with real inductors will always have this problem (although typically not as extreme as your problem), a technique is available to deal with it, known as pre-distortion.

A quick search turns up a master's thesis describing a method to pre-distort, and containing many references:

http://etd.auburn.edu/etd/bitstream/handle/10415/2383/Thesis2_1_1.pdf?sequence=2

Your particular inductors have very low Q, and it may not be possible even with pre-distortion to achieve your desired result with those inductors. You may have to get some better inductors.

How large is the signal you are trying to filter? It may be possible to harvest some energy from the signal itself to power a micropower opamp based active filter.
 
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A 250 mH inductor? That's a very large inductance - it must be wound with miles of wire, hence the high resistance. This is usually the case with low freq stuff.
 
Increase the capacitance values by a factor of 10 and reduce the inductor values by the same factor.

Capacitors are cheaper than inductors so you might redesign to use a Pi configuration rather than a T. Then you will only need two inductors and three capacitors.
 
Why did you choose these inductors?
Does your filter have high current requirements?
 
A low pass filter is a matching device. It matches the impedance of the source to the impedance of the load. Your source impedance is 1 ohm and your load impedance is 50 ohm. It is not just the cut-off frequency that determines the component values needed, it is also the terminal impedance values.
Your LPF transforms 1 ohm into 50 ohm. Is that realistic, or could it be changed to minimise inductor costs.
 

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