Hobbit" Human Ancestor Found in Asia - National Geographic News

[baywax]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8036396.stm

How many old legends are now called into question as potentially legitimate, in principle?

One really wild story comes from one of the original researchers on this who claimed to have seen a living hobbit, on Flores!

I hadn't thought of that Ivan, this sub-species of human could easily have started a number of myths and legends.

If trade was relatively well established around the world much earlier than is currently reported (as it is beginning to look like), these little guys could easily have been brought along as trading trinkets or just as "branding" novelties that promoted the trader who brought them. Some could just as easily have escaped and stayed in regions from where "the little people" stories have harkened. Take Ireland for example.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I hadn't thought of that Ivan, this sub-species of human could easily have started a number of myths and legends.

If trade was relatively well established around the world much earlier than is currently reported (as it is beginning to look like), these little guys could easily have been brought along as trading trinkets or just as "branding" novelties that promoted the trader who brought them. Some could just as easily have escaped and stayed in regions from where "the little people" stories have harkened. Take Ireland for example.

A couple of years ago I was discussing the idea that myths and legends often have a basis in truth, with a friend from Ireland. He laughed and demanded that I show him the little people, so I directed him to "Homo Floresiensis" as a possible explanation. The smile on his face suddenly disappeared.

When this story first broke, I started a thread about some of the legends and myths.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50855

 

[baywax]

A couple of years ago I was discussing the idea that myths and legends often have a basis in truth, with a friend from Ireland. He laughed and demanded that I show him the little people, so I directed him to "Homo Floresiensis" as a possible explanation. The smile on his face suddenly disappeared.

When this story first broke, I started a thread about some of the legends and myths.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50855

I think I smiled bigger when I heard the news.

The existence and occurrence of the Indonesian "homosapien minimus" (not a real name) holds a lot of promise in uncovering the origin of many stories that have lasted 1000s of years in various human folklore. The stories are not passed along with a date, no copyright, so when we find possible, probable or definite sources of their content this helps to date the story and perhaps the era of that story.

For instance, there is a version of the Santa Claus tale from northwestern europe about Cinder Claus and his little black elf. Cinder Claus would reward any good children and the little black elf would stuff the bad ones into Cinder Claus' bag and beat them with hammers... er... or like a broom or something (maybe a dash of waterboarding). Then they'd be abducted by the ruthless pair.

Looking at this tale with the knowledge of this Indonesian version of humans and with our knowledge of very early trading practices between Turkey and Scandinavia, (as early if not earlier than 300 AD after Scandinavians navigated the Dneiper River system through Russia to Istanbul) we can see that there may be a connection between the little black hellion and our Indonesian cousins. This is because once the Scandinavians got to Istanbul, they became privy to all of the blunders of the Turkish Empire and its outstandingly accurate navigational charts. On these charts are the Indonesian islands and their booty could have well included curious little "black" people that were perhaps collected and kept to breed during the previous millennia of Turkish history (of 23,000 yrs).

Thanks!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For instance, there is a version of the Santa Claus tale from northwestern europe about Cinder Claus and his little black elf. Cinder Claus would reward any good children and the little black elf would stuff the bad ones into Cinder Claus' bag and beat them with hammers... er... or like a broom or something (maybe a dash of waterboarding). Then they'd be abducted by the ruthless pair.

The final chapter from the local lore on Flores tells of an "Ebu Gogo" that came into the village and stole a child [a baby, IIRC]. The villagers then attacked and ran the Ebu Gogo out of their cave, with fire [not sure if they killed them or just ran them off]. Less the rare anecdotal reports, they were never seen again.

All very interesting, Baywax!

Btw, did you mean to say "plunders" instead of "blunders"?

Late edit: Abu changed to Ebu.

 

[baywax]

The final chapter from the local lore on Flores tells of an "Abu Gogo" that came into the village and stole a child [a baby, IIRC]. The villagers then attacked and ran the Abu Gogo out of their cave, with fire [not sure if they killed them or just ran them off]. Less the rare anecdotal reports, they were never seen again.

All very interesting, Baywax!

Btw, did you mean to say "plunders" instead of "blunders"?

It would be a lot more interesting if I had some more concrete evidence to back it all up.
The Vikings had a tremendous influence on Kiev and the Slavic people during the use of their this trade route. Many blundering plunders and oppression took place, as would suit the times.

Thanks Ivan!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It would be a lot more interesting if I had some more concrete evidence to back it all up.

Sure, for now it is all speculation, but it is tantalizing and one has to wonder. It will be interesting to see if we find any distinctively similar bones in other locations - not on Flores. At this point I have to wonder if we don't already have other misidentified examples.

 

[baywax]

Sure, for now it is all speculation, but it is tantalizing and one has to wonder. It will be interesting to see if we find any distinctively similar bones in other locations - not on Flores. At this point I have to wonder if we don't already have other misidentified examples.

Is there no way to extract DNA from the specimens? There has been some, limited success getting it from Neanderthal remains. That would help.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Given all of the controversy, I've been wondering about that myself.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is an old interview in which the local legends are discussed a bit.

Villagers speak of the small, hairy Ebu Gogo
Richard Roberts, discoverer of the Hobbit, says local tales suggest the species could still exist

When I was back in Flores earlier this month we heard the most amazing tales of little, hairy people, whom they called Ebu Gogo - Ebu meaning grandmother and Gogo meaning 'he who eats anything'. The tales contained the most fabulous details - so detailed that you'd imagine there had to be a grain of truth in them...

http://www.primates.co.uk/ebu-gogo/index.html

 

[baywax]

This is an old interview in which the local legends are discussed a bit.


http://www.primates.co.uk/ebu-gogo/index.html

I don't know if this is appropriate for this thread but I just found a legend about the little people of the Northern Rockies who were dark skinned and under 3 feet high and who ate everything including people (First Nation people of the period of the legend)

http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZKG...n4GPAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Please feel free to post any potentially related legends or myths in the S&D thread. It is appropriate there to discuss any anecdotal evidence.
A History of Hobbits?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50855

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...LB1 stood at least a meter tall and displays primitive-looking skeletal traits from head to toe, Jungers says. H. floresiensis must have evolved from a species that was older, smaller and anatomically more primitive than Asian H. erectus, perhaps 2.4-million-year-old Homo habilis in Africa, Jungers proposes. An evolutionary transition from H. habilis to hobbits would have required little or no reduction in body size, in his view.

This proposal clashes with earlier interpretations of other hobbit fossils, also from the Indonesian island of Flores, that suggest a large-bodied H. erectus population from southeastern Asia evolved into H. floresiensis. H. erectus lived in southeastern Asia by 90,000 years ago, when hobbits first inhabited Flores. And other animals are known to have evolved into small species on islands, a process known as island dwarfing...

http://www.usnews.com/articles/scie...ot-hippo-skulls-deepen-ancestral-mystery.html

 

[baywax]

And other animals are known to have evolved into small species on islands, a process known as island dwarfing...

Komodo Dragon not included.

http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/komodo-dragon-731086.jpg

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Komodo Dragon not included.

http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_images/komodo-dragon-731086.jpg

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Apparently Komodo dragons were twice their current size in the day of the hobbit.

 

[Phrak]

i'd thought that subsequent cranial cavity evidence supported the theory that the specimen was human. Or maybe I'm recalling a different investigation.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You might want to view the latest pbs special linked, if you haven't already. As I understand it, in order to be human they would have had an entire colony of microcephalics living for thousands of years. This is apparently extremely unlikely. Much of the original controvesy was based on only one skeleton. There are other distinctive features cited that suggest a parallel species, rather than mutant humans.

 

[baywax]

Apparently Komodo dragons were twice their current size in the day of the hobbit.

Holy §•ø©.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Holy §•ø©.

No kidding! I'm not sure where I heard that. It was in one of the sources linked earlier in this thread, but this seems to addess the same subject.

The Biogeography of the Komodo Dragon...

Evolution:
They share a common past with dinosaurs but are not direct descendants. Both dinosaurs and monitor lizards belong to the subclass Diapsida (Ciofi, 1999). The earliest fossils from this subclass go back to the late Carboniferous period, about 300 million years ago. Monitor lizards are related to Lepidsauria which emerged from Diapsida, about 250 million years ago at the end of the Paleozoic era. About 100 million years ago, during the Cretaceous era, a species related to contemporary varanids appear in the fossil records of central Asia. Marine lizards from this species went extinct, along with dinosaurs, about 65 million years ago. During the Eocene, 50 million years ago, land monitors spread throughout Europe and South Asia. The Varanus genus appeared and evolved about 40 and 25 million years ago in Asia. Varanids made it to Australia about 15 million years ago when Australia collided with southeast Asia. Then 2 million years later a second lineage differentiated and moved throughout Australia and the Indonesian archipelago when the two were much closer. Lower sea levels allowed the dragons to reach their destination. Varanus komodoensis differentiated from its earliest Australian relative about 4 million years ago (Ciofi, 1999). Komodos migrated to the islands of Flores, Rinca and Gila Motang, which were joined about 10,000 years ago. The island of Komodo joined the other islands around 20,000 years ago during the last Ice Age.

Fossil evidence supports the idea that Komodo dragons may be relics of a larger distribution, stretching as far as the eastern portion of Flores to Timor. Fossils from pygmy elephants, stegodont, found on both Timor and Flores suggest that the two islands may have been close enough to allow migration during the Pleistocene era. The existence of large mammals provided an adequate supply of food to feed lizards as large as Komodo dragons and possibly larger. Megalania prisca, a varanid, could have reached lengths up to 23 feet and weighed up to a ton due to the existence of stegodonts or pygmy elephants (Diamond, 1992). These enormous varanids, that have been extinct for 25,000 years, may explain how Komodo dragons evolved to be such large carnivores in an ecosystem that has a limited amount of resources...

http://www.sfsu.edu/~geog/bholzman/courses/316projects/komodo.htm