The most efficient way to run a prison is to have 1 man cells and keep everybody locked down all the time. But there are other problems.KingNothing said:I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.
How can the efficiency be improved?
Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.
Drakkith said:It isn't that simple.
KingNothing said:What isn't that simple? I didn't even propose any ideas. I wasn't saying that we should 'just shoot em'.
Well, nobody knows, as far as I know.lisab said:I think it would be efficient to first identify the sociopaths. They aren't capable of being rehabilitated, so we shouldn't spend money trying. (Withholding treatment because of a mental condition is probably illegal, btw.)
Young offenders who aren't sociopaths - they are probably the best bang for the buck, WRT rehabilitation.
All those in between the sociopaths and the young offenders...sigh. I just don't know.
mege said:(but I do understand drug trade = gangs, violence, etc so it's a fine line
I have to agree. So it seems that a comprehensive program dealing with improving the efficiency of our penal system should start with reforming/revamping the drug laws.Ivan Seeking said:..which result mainly because drugs are illegal in the first place. It is about the money, not the drugs.
The war on the inner cities, our courts, our jails, and even our schools, are a direct result of drug laws. They have broken the system.
ThomasT said:I have to agree. So it seems that a comprehensive program dealing with improving the efficiency of our penal system should start with reforming/revamping the drug laws.
At least, I'd like to see serious conversations about this in the major media. But most politicians are afraid to even talk about it.
KingNothing said:I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.
How can the efficiency be improved?
Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.
The purpose of prison is to warehouse offenders who've been sentenced to a term of imprisonment. We simply don't have the technology to reform people. How would you know if a person's attitudes have changed? People will say and do just about anything to get out of prison.SixNein said:I would like to see a greater effort on reforming and socializing prisoners. When we send someone to prison, they should come out a better person instead of worse. The purpose of prison is to reform prisoners not simply punish.
Ivan Seeking said:..which result mainly because drugs are illegal in the first place. It is about the money, not the drugs.
The war on the inner cities, our courts, our jails, and even our schools, are a direct result of drug laws. They have broken the system.
Proton Soup said:well, we've been in afghanistan for about a decade now, and we haven't killed the poppies. and we occasionally catch the CIA running drugs. the executive branch loves this stuff.
KingNothing said:I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.
How can the efficiency be improved?
Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.
Drakkith said:No, the CIA isn't running the drugs. Individuals are the ones that are doing it, they just belong to the CIA. That's like saying the Military is allowing drug use just because there are always a few members doing it. Plenty get caught, but we have so many new people come in every year that someone will always be doing it somewhere.
256bits said:Oliver North comes to mind - Contras
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Mujaheddin
But back to penal system . . .
Send them all to Australia like the British did.
And give Alkatraz (spelling) a new paint job and open it up.
Would that not be a deterence to commiiting a crime.
Anyways a criminal is only someone who has been caught.
256bits said:Oliver North comes to mind - Contras
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Mujaheddin
TheStatutoryApe said:Legalize marijuana. I don't think many harder drugs should be legalized if any but if we drop it as a crime to do them and only go after the dealers and suppliers there will likely be fewer people in jail. Most people who do drugs have a hard time as it is getting employment. After doing time in jail it probably becomes next to impossible. If they come out of jail with no job and no money they are that much more likely to go back to doing drugs and highly likely to commit crimes in order to make money and get more drugs.
Legalize prostitution. Drugs and prostitution tend to be rather closely linked. If you make the job legal, give them a safe environment, and check them for needle use at the least then you could probably nearly extinguish a whole class of offenders as well as reduce the drug problem to some degree. I understand drugs tend to go with the sex trade legal or otherwise so I am not so optimistic about that end but it could vary well help.
Better education. The vast majority of criminals little to no education which likely contributes in many ways to their becoming criminals and staying criminals. More educational opportunities for people in prison as well and (since I am sure the opportunities do already exist in many prisons) more incentive to take up those opportunities.
Lastly, stop treating policing and prosecution as a business. With our overcrowded prisons here in California it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which officers seem to feel they need to make busts and send people to jail. I am sure that the prosecution has pressure on them to get convictions as well. The necessity for officers and the justification for spending on the police should not be measured by how many people they send to jail. One way or another we need them and they need the money to do their jobs so just give it to them.
TheStatutoryApe said:Legalize marijuana. I don't think many harder drugs should be legalized if any but if we drop it as a crime to do them and only go after the dealers and suppliers there will likely be fewer people in jail. Most people who do drugs have a hard time as it is getting employment. After doing time in jail it probably becomes next to impossible. If they come out of jail with no job and no money they are that much more likely to go back to doing drugs and highly likely to commit crimes in order to make money and get more drugs.
WhoWee said:Australia might not want them - I'd talk to Turkey offer $5,000 per head and they supply medical/dental and food.
WhoWee said:Here's an idea -given the US Government owns about 1/3 of the land mostly in the west - why not relocate a few of the older and larger populations to nice large penal reservations - where the inmates can grow their own crops and animals - even sell them on the open market. The facilities could include wind and solar facilities cared for by the inmates and feed the US energy demand. If the inmates had something to do each day (other than engage in gang activity and lawsuits for instance) they might find peace and satisfaction from their experience?
ryan_m_b said:I like this idea. A long time ago I heard of an experimental prison (can't remember where but it was in the EU) where the facility tried to emulate a real society. Prisoners earned money (fake) for tasks and could use them to buy certain things like an hour of free time outside of the cell or a ticket to the cinema room. They were encouraged to socialise with each other through schemes such as doing activity X requires two people. Committing crimes i.e. breaking the rules resulted in a loss of money and privileges. If you break the rules often you live a solidarity life in a small cell on bland food with no entertainment.
I never found a reference to this prison so I have no idea if it really exists. However what the person was telling me still stands, I think the idea of turning prisons into retraining centres which emulate society would be a far better idea than locking up criminals with other criminals so that they can all sit around and become worse criminals.
ThomasT said:WhoWee, ryan_m_b, et al, the idea is to improve the efficiency of the penal system. Just about all the problems in prisons arise from situations where prisoners are in contact with other people. The most expedient and efficient way to deal with this is to keep them locked in their, preferably single person, cells. Some maximum security prisons have been doing this for quite some time now.
By taking the food prep, laundry, etc. duties away from prisoners these jobs can then be given to law abiding people who need work, which would help the economy. Building more prisons and expanding the space of county facilities also provides jobs for law abiding people, which also helps the economy, and also positively affects the efficiency of the criminal justice system in general.
The idea of legalizing recreational drug usage, manufacture and sales, and prostitution, and taking control away from criminals seems like a very good idea.
What is it you're agreeing with? If drugs are legalized in order to take control away from the criminals, then the usual recreational drugs won't be illegal. Things like marijuana, cocaine, and heroin would join alcohol and nicotine as legal, but regulated (and taxed), drugs.WhoWee said:I would agree with one stipulation - anyone testing positive for illegal drugs would not be eligible for Government assistance of any type.
Which sets the stage for lots of the corruption in prisons. And also does nothing to help the addict quit his addiction.turbo-1 said:Instead of counseling and treating addicts, the US often shoves them into the criminal court system and incarcerates them.
Even without the drug-related incarcerations, I have this feeling that the US just has more criminally oriented people than other societies.turbo-1 said:We incarcerate more people than any other country on Earth ...
If you're talking about the inner cities of large urban areas, then these are predominantly populated by blacks, and, increasingly, latinos and hispanics. And since that's where more crime occurs, then it follows that more blacks end up getting arrested.turbo-1 said:... and a disproportionate number of the prisoners are black.
Take the drug manufacturing, distribution and sales out of the hands of criminals by legalizing and regulating it.turbo-1 said:Can anyone think of ways to improve this?
turbo-1 said:Instead of counseling and treating addicts, the US often shoves them into the criminal court system and incarcerates them. We incarcerate more people than any other country on earth, and a disproportionate number of the prisoners are black. Can anyone think of ways to improve this?
A main part of the argument for legalizing drugs is that lots of violent crimes are related to the illegality of drugs.mege said:I think most agree that petty drug offenses are something that need to be treated differently. What happens, however, when you have a violent crime that was likely caused by a drug interaction (either by use or in a transaction).
WhoWee said:There are always unintended consequences. The one I predict would be everyone smoking pot on a daily basis would then be eligible for Social Security Disability because they smoke too much - thereby shifting the cost of prisons to the welfare state.
A quick look found a couple links with interesting information.mege said:I wonder if there's any data comparing the overall crime rate in states/localities where prostitution is legal and not in the US.
I would not suggest that people who lack education should be let off the hook for their crimes. I am only suggesting a potential means of reducing the number of criminals and repeat offenders.Mege said:Re: Education. I'm reminded of an episode of House, MD where their patient is a Deathrow inmate (multiple violent murders) whom has some health issues before being put to death. They find that he has a condition which causes adrenaline to increase significantly when his heart rate reaches a certain threshold. The inmate always comments on his murders 'I just don't remember doing it' indicating that he's raging. They're able to repair the condition and then question if it's any worth to make an appeals case for him to not be on death row any more as they may have 'solved' his aggressive behavior. Dr. House then responds, "What about every other person with this condition that learned to live with it and not kill people?" Point being: how much can you give someone the benefit of the doubt for their 'condition' (social, health, racial, whatever it may be) when there's lots of examples of others overcoming those same hurdles and living productive, non-criminal lives?
I would disagree. People who smoke marijuana are not necessarily any less productive than any other member of society. In the area where I live there are plenty of people of all sorts that smoke marijuana, most of them have jobs, and many are fairly successful individuals. Most of the really successful people I have met say that meth and cocaine are common in those circles, so maybe the pot smokers should switch to stimulants?WhoWee said:There are always unintended consequences. The one I predict would be everyone smoking pot on a daily basis would then be eligible for Social Security Disability because they smoke too much - thereby shifting the cost of prisons to the welfare state.
I was thinking at least some form of work. The society idea is interesting.WhoWee said:Here's an idea -given the US Government owns about 1/3 of the land mostly in the west - why not relocate a few of the older and larger populations to nice large penal reservations - where the inmates can grow their own crops and animals - even sell them on the open market. The facilities could include wind and solar facilities cared for by the inmates and feed the US energy demand. If the inmates had something to do each day (other than engage in gang activity and lawsuits for instance) they might find peace and satisfaction from their experience?
ThomasT said:What is it you're agreeing with? If drugs are legalized in order to take control away from the criminals, then the usual recreational drugs won't be illegal. Things like marijuana, cocaine, and heroin would join alcohol and nicotine as legal, but regulated (and taxed), drugs.
So, who would be ineligible for government assistance on account of their drug use?
TheStatutoryApe said:I would disagree. People who smoke marijuana are not necessarily any less productive than any other member of society. In the area where I live there are plenty of people of all sorts that smoke marijuana, most of them have jobs, and many are fairly successful individuals. Most of the really successful people I have met say that meth and cocaine are common in those circles, so maybe the pot smokers should switch to stimulants?
Insofar as it's used to get high, then it's a recreational drug.WhoWee said:I didn't realize heroin was a recreational drug.
ThomasT said:Insofar as it's used to get high, then it's a recreational drug.
The idea is to take the control of drugs away from criminals. I know that legalizing methamphetamine and heroin seems drastic, but the problems caused by their illegality seem to outweigh the problems that legalizing them would entail.WhoWee said:I think you need to draw the line somewhere. If pot and powder cocaine were legal - why would that not be adequate? Anyone who has spent time on the streets knows that heroin, crack, crank and all the meth are bad news - and should not be legal.
TylerH said:Aside from law reform, I think we would benefit from running prisons more like businesses with all-powerful bosses. Everyone who is capable should be forced to work and, in the process, learn a marketable skill. There's a prison in my state, NC, that does something similar. Everything that they need and can be grown in our area, they grow, rather than buy. There's no reason every prison couldn't produce at least what they use, if not surplus to sell.
The current method of just locking people up for x amount of years does nothing to or for people who have no reason to want to be on the outside. Teaching them a skill gives them a way to live on the outside, where before they had none.
Obviously, there are security concerns to be addressed. These could be addressed by assigning a quota, and only focusing searches on those who don't meet it (as they weren't doing on their job, so they must have been doing something). Along with increased inspection of conspicuous people, everyone would still go through metal detectors etc.
mege said:While I'm not in the 'legalize drugs!' crowd, I feel that there are far too many inherently non-dangerous offenders that get locked away (but I do understand drug trade = gangs, violence, etc so it's a fine line). I think one of our major issues is that we're using jail as a purely punative measure for some with a hope of rehabilitation rather than as a 'seperation' measure to keep dangerous folks out of society.
I think there's better punative measures that can be employed - community service, humiliation rituals (breadboard corner-stands), etc.
Do rapists, murderers and child abusers need to be locked away? Absolutely. In fact, I think we're too soft in some of these cases (esspecially with child abuse)
Do small white-collar crimes, pot-smokers and jaywalkers need to be imprisioned? Likely not.
SamRoss said:It sounds like you are part of the 'legalize drugs' crowd, and that's a good thing. You mention that drug trade = gangs, violence, etc. Well, those things would go away if drugs were legalized, just like the alcohol related gangs went away after prohibition. Keep in mind both the percentage of the population that is in jail for non-violent crimes as well as actual drug use has gone up since the war on drugs. The war on drugs is not actually designed to make America safer, it's designed to keep the prison workers union happy and to allow politicians to prove how tough they can be on "crime". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs
turbo said:There is a synthetic drug floating around under the name "bath salts" and many other aliases. It has gotten a lot of coverage in this state due to hallucinations, psychosis, etc that its users experience. There was a proposal by some Democrats to criminalize this new drug which was turned down by the Republicans in power. Now, the state GOP has come up with their own proposed legislation that will make the possession of "bath salts" a felony. Just what we need - our jails are full to bursting already.
I would love to see the state acknowledge the existence of this drug, and suppress the distribution and sale of such, without making instant felons of every young person that tries it.WhoWee said:What would you like to see them do about this specific synthetic drug?
turbo said:I would love to see the state acknowledge the existence of this drug, and suppress the distribution and sale of such, without making instant felons of every young person that tries it.
At some point, the "war on drugs" has to be weighed against its failures. And the failures are numerous and severe, IMO. The "war on drugs" has solidified the hold that gangs and cartels have on our society, and empowered them with more and more funding as "illegal" drugs get more expensive. Wm F Buckley Jr was well aware of this problem over 40 years ago, and his warnings went unheeded. We could use a few Buckley conservatives today.
