How Close Must You Be to Double the Sound Intensity in Decibels?

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves determining the distance required to double the sound intensity measured in decibels (dB) when starting from a distance of 10 meters from a sound source. The context is related to sound intensity and its logarithmic representation in decibels.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the relationship between sound intensity and distance, noting that intensity is proportional to 1/r^2. There are attempts to set up equations involving ratios of intensities and logarithmic expressions. Some participants express confusion about the implications of doubling intensity in dB.

Discussion Status

There is ongoing exploration of the mathematical relationships involved, with some participants questioning the validity of the problem statement regarding doubling intensity in dB. Guidance has been offered to reconsider the problem's phrasing and the underlying assumptions about sound intensity and decibel calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that doubling a dB value is not a common practice and that practical implications of such a request may not align with standard sound intensity measurements. There is mention of needing additional details to fully address the problem, such as the specific sound intensity at the initial distance.

05holtel
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Homework Statement



You are 10m away from a sound source. If you want the intensity in DB to double, you must move to a distance...?

Homework Equations



Idb = 10log(I/I0)
I is proportional to 1/r^2

The Attempt at a Solution



I know the answer is 1m and I know that in order to make the sound louder, you need to get closer
Not sure how to get 1m though

Thanks
 
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I'll get you started. What you want to do, as with anything where you are comparing two quantities, is either take a ratio or subtraction. In this case, what do you think you want to do?
 


Take a ratio.
I2/I1 = 2

Now what
 


So...

2=\frac{I_2}{I_1}=\frac{10log(I_2/I_0)}{10log(I_1/I_0)}
 


But how do you relate it to I being proportional to 1/r^2.
I am not sure how to get 1m
 


From here it's all algebra, right? Try it out for a bit and let me know where you get stuck.
 


I2/I1 = 2 = (1/1/r2^2) / (1/r1^2) = square root (100/2) =7
stuck
 


Logs don't quite work like that. If you want to undo a log you have to exponent it.
 


I am very confused
 
  • #10


05holtel said:
You are 10m away from a sound source. If you want the intensity in DB to double, you must move to a distance...?
Hello 05holtel,

Could you just double check your problem statement, and make sure you copied it over correctly?

I ask because it's very strange for anyone to want something to double in dB. It's just something that doesn't happen often, if at all. As a matter of fact, depending on how you look at it doesn't even make sense.

It's very common to want the power, energy, or power flux, etc., to double (in non-dB terms such as Watts, Joules, Watts/(square meter), etc.), But in terms of dB, you do that by adding 3 dB.

For examples of dB respresentation, you could represent a power in dB in reference to 1 Watt.

P_{dBW} = 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \frac{P}{1 \ \mbox{W}} \right)

You could also represent a power in terms of milliwatts.

P_{dBm} = 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \frac{P}{1 \ \mbox{mW}} \right)

(Both of these concepts are used widely in engineering professions, by the way.)

So let's make a very specific example, and calculate 1 Watt, in terms of P_{dBW} and P_{dBm}.

P_{dBW} = 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \frac{1 \ \mbox{W}}{1 \ \mbox{W}} \right) = 0 \ \mbox{dBW}

P_{dBm} = 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \frac{1000 \ \mbox{mW}}{1 \ \mbox{mW}} \right) = 30 \ \mbox{dBm}

Keep in mind that 1 Watt, 0 dBW, and 30 dBm are all equal. They are all the same thing!

But if we were to double our 1 Watt power example, in terms of dBW, it wouldn't change the actual intensity at all. How can you double 0? It's still 0.

If we were to double the value in terms of dBm, we get 60 dBm. Doing a reverse calculation, that corresponds to 1000 Watts!

My point of all of this is that it just doesn't make practical sense for wanting a value in dB to double. In terms of dB, adding 3 dB doubles the power intensity. Subtracting 3 dB halves the power intensity. But multiplying a dB value by something isn't so common.

Being specific to this problem, in terms of sound pressure level, suppose the intensity of the sound source was at the human auditory threshold (just barely audible). In that case, the sound intensity is measured to be 0 dB. There's no way to double that! Or suppose the sound intensity was just below the human threshold of hearing. In that case, the person would have to move backwards (to a distance greater than 10 m) to double it!

What I fear is that your instructor is trying to get you to recognize that

2 \times 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \frac{I}{I_0} \right) = 10 \ \mbox{log} \left( \left[\frac{I}{I_0} \right]^2 \right)

and somehow relate that to the sound intensity being proportional to 1/r2. This can be done (although I have no clue as to why anybody would ever want to), but there needs to be more problems details to do it, such as the specific sound intensity at 10 m for example. (And even though such things are possible to do mathematically, in practice, situations don't come up where somebody would ever really want to do that.)

So I just want to be sure that the problem statement is phrased correctly.
 
Last edited:

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