How Do Filter Transfer Functions Determine Attenuation and Gain?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between filter transfer functions and their effects on attenuation and gain, particularly in the context of high-frequency behavior and DC gain. Participants explore the mathematical underpinnings of these concepts, including the roles of poles and zeros in determining gain and attenuation rates.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a transfer function and asks how to calculate the rate of attenuation increase in dB per decade at high frequency, as well as the gain at DC.
  • Another participant claims that each zero increases gain by 10 dB per decade and each pole causes attenuation of 10 dB per decade, concluding that the given function will have an attenuation of 20 dB per decade due to 2 zeros and 4 poles.
  • Several participants question the basis for the assertion that poles and zeros cause attenuation/gain by a factor of 10, with one participant requesting a proof.
  • A later reply provides a mathematical derivation for the gain at low and high frequencies for a system with a single pole, illustrating how the gain decreases by 10 dB per decade at high frequencies.
  • The reasoning for zeros is mentioned as being the inverse of that for poles, though no further details are provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the foundational claims about poles and zeros, with multiple viewpoints on the need for proof and clarification of these concepts. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the underlying principles.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference classroom learning as the source of their understanding, but the discussion lacks formal proofs or universally accepted definitions, leading to varying interpretations of the effects of poles and zeros.

david90
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given

t(s)= [2(s^2+9.32)] / [s^4+1.322s^3+0.976s^2+.750s+1]

how do you calculate the reate of attenuation increase in db per decade at high frequency?

Determine the gain in db at dc. To do this, just replace s=0 and then do 10log(result) right?

Also, at which freq is the attenation infinite? Is it when the denominator = 0?


Thanks:-p
 
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Each zero increases the gain by a factor of 10 dB per decade. Each pole causes an attenuation of 10 dB per decade.
Since you have 2 zeros and 4 poles, the attenuation at high frequency will be 20 dB per dacade.
 
how do you know poles/zeros cause attenuation/gain by a factor of 10?
 
david90 said:
how do you know poles/zeros cause attenuation/gain by a factor of 10?
We learned it from the class that you are taking now.
 
I'm looking for a proof.:smile:
 
david90 said:
how do you know poles/zeros cause attenuation/gain by a factor of 10?
Consider a system with a single pole:
[tex]G(s) = \frac{A}{s+a}[/tex]
the gain in low frequency is obtained making s = 0.
[tex]Gain_{dB}=10log_{10}\frac{A}{a}[/tex]
The gain at a frequency [tex]\omega[/tex] is:
[tex]Gain_{dB}=10log_{10}\frac{A}{|j\omega+a|} = 10log_{10}A - 10log_{10}|j\omega+a|[/tex]
At a frequency [tex]\omega_1 >> a[/tex] the gain may be approximated by:
[tex]Gain_{dB}=10log_{10}\frac{A}{|j\omega+a|} = <br /> 10log_{10}A - 10log_{10}\omega_1[/tex]
At a frequency [tex]\omega_2 = 10|omega_1[/tex] the gain will be:
[tex]Gain_{dB}=10log_{10}\frac{A}{|j\omega+a|} = 10log_{10}A - 10log_{10}\10omega_1 = 10log_{10}\frac{A}{|j\omega+a|} = 10log_{10}A - 10log_{10}\omega_1 - 10log_{10}10 = 10log_{10}A - 10log_{10}\omega_1 - 10[/tex]
So, you have a loss of 10dB in one decade.
The reasoning for zeros is the inverse.
 

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