How does friction affect a car's ability to turn at high speeds?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the effects of friction on a car's ability to turn at high speeds, particularly in the context of modeling the dynamics of a car navigating a corner. Participants explore concepts related to lateral friction forces, the role of driving and non-driving wheels, and the impact of drag during cornering.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether lateral friction forces oppose the inertial 'centrifugal' force when turning, suggesting they act towards the center of curvature.
  • Another participant confirms that the centripetal friction force is perpendicular to the velocity of the car when speed is constant.
  • Concerns are raised about the effect of friction resisting the direction of travel, with one participant noting that air resistance and internal resistance are minimal in this context.
  • Discussion includes the clarification that friction on a non-driven wheel prevents slipping but does not impede forward movement, while friction on a driving wheel provides forward acceleration.
  • A later contribution introduces the concept of drag induced during cornering, mentioning the need for throttle application to maintain speed due to the slip angle of the tires.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the role of lateral friction forces and the mechanics of driving versus non-driving wheels, but there are nuances regarding the effects of drag and the implications of tire slip angles that remain open for further exploration.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the conditions of the car's motion, such as the effects of speed changes and external forces like air resistance that are not fully resolved in the discussion.

paton51
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Im trying to model a car going round a corner and the speed at which it will overturn (assuming no slip)
Is it correct that when turning there are lateral friction forces that oppose the inertial 'centrifugal' force? i.e. towards the centre of curvature
When the front (driving) wheel are turned at an angle does this force still act perpendicular to the direction of the wheel?
Also, how much effect would there be from friction resisting the direction of travel?
and i know that the friction on a 'non driven' wheel opposes the direction of travel but, is it opposite for a 'driving' wheel?

Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
 
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Welcome to PF!

Hi paton51! Welcome to PF! :smile:
paton51 said:
Im trying to model a car going round a corner and the speed at which it will overturn (assuming no slip)
Is it correct that when turning there are lateral friction forces that oppose the inertial 'centrifugal' force? i.e. towards the centre of curvature

Yes. :smile:
When the front (driving) wheel are turned at an angle does this force still act perpendicular to the direction of the wheel?

If the car is not changing speed (as distinct from direction), then the centripetal friction force is always perpendicular to the velocity of the car.
Also, how much effect would there be from friction resisting the direction of travel?

Almost none … that's air resistance, and the internal resistance of the bearings etc inside the car.
and i know that the friction on a 'non driven' wheel opposes the direction of travel

No … friction from the ground (on a 'non driven' wheel) only stops the wheel from slipping … it doesn't impede the forward movement.
but, is it opposite for a 'driving' wheel?

Friction from the ground again stops the wheel from slipping, but also provides forward acceleration. :smile:
 
Paton51, in the real world there is a significant amount of drag induced when the car is cornering. The tire operates at a slip angle, which means that the wheel must be turned more than the path of the tire would seem to indicate. The resultant drag is enough to partially substitute for braking, and needs to be countered with the application of throttle during cornering in order to maintain a set speed.
 
Ok thaks guys, i'll see how i get on now with this info :)
 

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