How does life not violate conservation of entropy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between life and the concept of entropy, particularly questioning how life processes do not seem to violate the principles associated with entropy, especially in the context of the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore theoretical implications, definitions, and the nature of systems in relation to entropy.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant argues that plants organize minerals and energy into specific structures, raising the question of how this organization does not violate entropy conservation.
  • Another participant states that there is no concept of "conservation of entropy," suggesting a misunderstanding of the term.
  • It is noted that in isolated systems, entropy generally increases, and a reference is made to Schrödinger's book "What is Life?" for further exploration of the topic.
  • A participant points out that the disorder of a nearby star contributes to the ordering of chlorophyll molecules on Earth, implying a broader context for understanding entropy in life processes.
  • One participant clarifies that the second law of thermodynamics indicates entropy increases or remains the same in isolated systems, emphasizing that Earth is not isolated.
  • Another participant reinforces the idea that there is no conservation of entropy, arguing that life processes are regulated and involve controlled interactions rather than spontaneous assembly.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the concept of conservation of entropy, with some asserting it does not exist while others discuss its implications in the context of the second law of thermodynamics. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on the relationship between life and entropy.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of defining systems as isolated or non-isolated when discussing entropy. There is an acknowledgment of the complexity of life processes and their regulation, which may influence interpretations of entropy in these contexts.

mrspeedybob
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A plant for example absorbs minerals and moisture from the soil and radiation from the sun. There is a huge variety of ways that these components can be arranged, but the plant organizes them into very specific structures such as proteins, cells, leaves, stem, roots, etc.

There are far more ways to arrange the matter and energy in a non-living way then there are to arrange it into a life form so how is it that life itself is not a violation of conservation of entropy?
 
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There is no such thing as "conservation of entropy".
 
In an isolated system, entropy generally increases, so it is not conserved. In the case of what you're writing, there is a book titled "What is Life?" by Erwin Schrödinger, in which he discusses the sort of thing you are considering.
 
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And anyway - think how disordered a certain nearby star gets in order for a few little chlorophyl molecules to get a bit better ordered on earth.
 
Conservation of entropy? There is no conservation of entropy law. I presume you are talking about the second law of thermodynamics, which says that for an isolated system, dS/dt >= 0. In other words, entropy increases or remains the same for an isolated system.

The Earth is not an isolated system.
 
There is in no way a conservation of entropy, given that it contradicts itself. Also an interaction that is regulated, such as life, has limiters that keep very close control on the reactions that take place. Sunlight is not just absorbed and arranged on spot. The structures do not assemble themselves, they are put through processes. I agree that Earth is in no way an isolated system, nor is that plant you gave reference to. It is a controlled environment.
 

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