B How does output voltage of an electric guitar work?

[Xenon02]

Well it may be stupid to someone but I wouldn't say from my perspective or yours it's a stupid question. Do you have a guitar? If so, do some experiments.

I don't have the guitar but if I had I don't have anything good to church the voltages etc.

Where is your math for this and are you assuming peak amplitude or RMS?

The number comes from the link from the first post so I used them as a reference to my geogebra version of these graphs.

What I took out of this lesson is that no matter the phase shift or the frequency. All signals with different frequencies while adding up will meet at some point where all peaks will add up resulting in high peak.

So I research alot and many sites shows the same graphs as mine which is the orange one. They did not use units so I interpreted them as an input signal. So input signal had peak of "4" what will the pickup do to this signal ? It won't cut it creating distortion so ??? Input is signal like my orange signal what is the output ? Reduced to 0.6V peak version ?

If yes then there is no logic in between input signal peaks with output voltage because the peak could have value "10" so what pickup will do ? What value he will give to this peak ?

BUT look at the table I gave in post #47 the higher notes we get from the guitar the bigger the amplitude or maybe the lower notes ?? I dunno the sound on the bridge. But yea, so there is some conclusion I can take from this picture BUT how does the input to the guitar looks like ? Why if I have 6 signals with 0.3V adding up did not exceed 1V ? Dunno. There is in the table that possibility and the chord gave only 0.3V output having individual strings with 0.3V peak. And we know signal with different frequencies all meet their peaks at some point so 0.3*6. Why am I confident they must meet ? My geogebra example.

That is irrational. If two produce 300 mV peak, then one produces 150 mV peak and six produce 900 mV peak. That is less than one volt peak, not more.

Individual string have this much the table I've provided doesn't lie. Plus what if you pull the string harder then maybe the amplitude rises. But maybe not because the frequency of the sound is the same just how high the bouncing is increased. So it should have any impact. I think so reading what Averagesuperman has said in post #41

This is an electric guitar. If you hit every string at once, you would complain if it did not clip and distort.

Clipping and distortion should the circuit do and not the pickup I assume.
And if randomly pulling the string makes distortion then playing on the guitar the same way will result randomly in distortion which doesn't make sense.

But you can agree that signal with different frequencies must meet at some point all their peaks must add up at some point like in my orange graph example right ? Resulting in high peak moment. So like how does the input looks like. Why the 6 string sound peak wasn't above 1V knowing from the table that strings have 0.3V or even 0.8V at some example.

So how does the input look like and why pickup with these signals amplitude didn't exceed 1V. Weird and interesting

 

[Xenon02]

PS

If pickup output can be max 1V and the input vibration signal it's peak can be "3", "10" etc. Then pick up must reduce it into 1V so hard clipping resulting in distortion. Which doesn't make sense because randomly playing will give distortion.

So how the Input looks like ? What is the unit of those input peaks because websites only shows the graphs with high peaks. Check them out. I am just recreating a simple example to them. So pickup receives these "4","10" etc peaks.

Lastly, the table it shows how big are the amplitudes for specific Playstyle ? Dunno. But it shows that strings can have 0.3 or even 0.8V while pickup can have max 1V so what if I add all 6 strings ? It must exceed 1 V because different frequencies peaks must all add up at some point

0.8V in all Strings will result in like more than 4V
... But that's how the table says so I believe it that individual string can have 0.8V because pickup can make maks 1V

 

[Baluncore]

If pickup output can be max 1V and the input vibration signal it's peak can be "3", "10" etc. Then pick up must reduce it into 1V so hard clipping resulting in distortion. Which doesn't make sense because randomly playing will give distortion.

What do you mean by "which doesn't make sense"? Randomly playing a few strings will not give distortion.

If you want loud and perfect sound without distortion, you will be playing more gently, but turning up the gain of the amplifier. If you put all your energy into shredding your fingers, you deserve all the distortion you can get. It is not the pickup, but the input to the amplifier, that will distort when exceeding the one volt envelope.

The player knows, and is in control of, their equipment. They know what they are doing, and how to stay within the one volt envelope, when that is wanted.

 

[Xenon02]

What do you mean by "which doesn't make sense"? Randomly playing a few strings will not give distortion.

If you want loud and perfect sound without distortion, you will be playing more gently, but turning up the gain of the amplifier. If you put all your energy into shredding your fingers, you deserve all the distortion you can get. It is not the pickup, but the input to the amplifier, that will distort when exceeding the one volt envelope.

The player knows, and is in control of, their equipment. They know what they are doing, and how to stay within the one volt envelope, when that is wanted.

But here I was talking about pick up and not what op amp amplifies. Op amp amplifies what he gets from the pickup.

The website showed the sound amplitude which you've said yourself amplitude of 0.8V is alot and if all 6 strings or more had 0.8V then peak can be even 4 V on the pickup itself although the pickup cannot exceed 1.4V as you mentioned.


I've used a bit of chatgpt he showed me some ideas and had some sense. Like if the vibration amplitude exceed the peak value "1" then the overall amplitude is reduced by the pickup.

It said that :

• Generating Input Signals: Each string generates a signal with a specific amplitude and frequency.
• Summing the Signals: These signals are summed, which can lead to very high amplitude values at certain moments.
• Clipping the Signal by the Pickup: The pickup applies a nonlinear function, such as tanh⁡\tanhtanh, to limit the summed signal to a maximum value, e.g., 1V.
  
  
• Nonlinear Summation of Input Signals: The pickup processes input signals nonlinearly, preventing simple linear addition of amplitudes.
• Signal Clipping: The pickup uses a soft clipping function (tanh⁡\tanhtanh) to avoid distortion and provide a stable output signal.
  

So yea, but this nonlinear part is the black line, although it is just linear sum of all signals and reduced to be max 1V, maybe it has some sense.
But someone mentioned that pickup doesn't reduce the input signals so I don't know now how the pickup works with high peaks. Also chatgpt told me that these vibrations are :

Vibration signal units:

The value "3" on the graph is the amplitude of the signal, which is a dimensionless unit in the mathematical context (it simply shows the maximum value of the vibration).
In a real-world context, signals from a pickup truck are measured in volts (V). The pickup converts the amplitude of the string vibrations into a corresponding electrical signal, which can have different voltages depending on the design of the pickup and the strength of the string vibrations.

That's what I've found so far but are conflicting with what you've guys said

 

[sophiecentaur]

Also, when you are adding multiple sine waves of different frequencies, it is usually the RMS values that you add, not the peak values.

If you are estimating power supply requirements or thermal effects in the output stages or in the speaker coil then RMS addition will be relevant. If you are trying to maintain headroom, to avoid clipping then you have to involve individual signal peak volts as they will add at some point, which is where clipping will occur.
Audio amps are always specified 'optimistically' so as to give the impression that 100W means 100W of sinewave supplied to the speaker. Something will over-heat or the volts from the supply will dip.

But I still wonder how pickup works when the sum of all amplitudes from sound or vibration exceeds this value "1". Like the sum of all signals is "100" and what pickup will do with this peak.

There is nothing in a normal pickup that will 'run out of range' so your "100" is an arbitrary number of mV. It's amplifiers that will limit the total excursion of the signal. Somewhere in the amplifier chain there will be an adjustable attenuator to take care of this.

Microphones can run out of headroom and you can get limiting with excess sound level. You can get rugged mikes for use with drums etc.

 

[Xenon02]

There is nothing in a normal pickup that will 'run out of range' so your "100" is an arbitrary number of mV. It's amplifiers that will limit the total excursion of the signal. Somewhere in the amplifier chain there will be an adjustable attenuator to take care of this.

Microphones can run out of headroom and you can get limiting with excess sound level. You can get rugged mikes for use with drums etc.

Do you have any information from websites/videos etc about it that pickup doesn't run out of range ? How input signal looks like and how to interpret the peak value of that input signal ? Does the value of peak equal to mV ? Because the input signal doesn't have unit or so I couldn't find on websites whole Output signal is in V or mV. Any source ???

If this diagram is incorrect.

Then what does the real diagram of input signal and output signal.

Like I said I couldn't find any example of vibrations signal which unit I don't know and the equivelant pickup signal on mV

 

[sophiecentaur]

Because the input signal doesn't have unit or so I couldn't find on websites whole Output signal is in V or mV. Any source ???

For the purpose of the theory, it doesn't matter what the actual voltage output is. It will depend on the thickness of the strings, the number of turns on the pickup coil and the geometry of the magnetic core. The Physics will be exactly the same. There is a limit to the amplitude of the string vibration and a few other things, which is ultimately a non-linearity.
You must remember, though, that all musical instruments are inherently nonlinear and strings on the same neck will interact mechanically through the wood and by altering the tension in the bridge etc.. There is little point in trying to talk of sine waves because nothing from a musical instrument (except maybe a quiet flute) is anything like pure, A waveform is just a waveform so analysing it in terms of sinusoids is not always helpful.

Do you have any information from websites/videos etc about it that pickup doesn't run out of range ?

Any non linearity due to the string's motion through the magnetic field is inconsequential compared with the way the string itself behaves. Why would you be so interested in that aspect of the guitar?

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Xenon02 you have plenty of misconceptions. The pickup does not run out of headroom. Clipping is done in the amp, not the pickup as long as the pickup is passive meaning it doesn't contain its own preamp. Your diagram in post #56 is wrong. The black line is a summation of the 6 signals and I would say linear. The dotted yellow is a soft clipped signal. Why it is soft clipped I have no idea. There is no reference to anything in an amplifier which would cause this clipping.
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@sophiecentaur is correct in that the signal from each string will not be a pure sine wave to begin with.
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I don't understand why all this is so important to you when you don't even have a guitar. And then you want to build circuits to produce effects? Makes no sense to me.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I don't understand why all this is so important to you when you don't even have a guitar. And then you want to build circuits to produce effects? Makes no sense to me.

The OP may just want a way into circuit design and building. He has ended up down a rabbit hole, involving many more factors than are involved in making a low power amplifier.

 

[Baluncore]

I've used a bit of chatgpt he showed me some ideas and had some sense.

Chatgpt is an idiot. It has collected garbage for you from the web.
You need a better crap detector.

The pickup is linear, it does not limit the output.
The amplifier is non-linear, it does limit the signal at its input.

 

[Xenon02]

Any non linearity due to the string's motion through the magnetic field is inconsequential compared with the way the string itself behaves. Why would you be so interested in that aspect of the guitar?

It was mainly curiosity which then made me think about it a bit. I read about interference and that many waves can add to each other and I saw those huge peaks.
Then I read about pickup having max 1V output and that one string/sound can make 0.8V peak so I wondered how the sum of all of those signals never crosses this 1V. So I thought maybe phase shift or that these signals have different frequencies so I made an geogebra diagram and it showed me that I was wrong and no matter the phase shift the peak was always high at some point so I wondered how pickup handles these high peak so they won't become 4V somehow ...

I don't know how to explain it better I just saw something u logical comparing the input wave amplitude to the output amplitude. The input amplitude has no restraints while output has which is the pickup max voltage.

So I wanted to see some examples or something and checked the website with voltage values of each string and the chord. I don't know if their electric signal added separately is the same as the one that already consist of those signals some said yes but ok. Still haven't seen an example.

But mainly curiosity which now sits like a worm on my head, because now I want to understand it :D

I could as well just know the max output value of the pick up and make an amplifier or a guitar effect no problem. But this question also came up because I wondered one day how (music) electric signal wave works if we for example reduce one peak of that sound will it reduce all sound or particular ones on that waveform, if all then they are now equally reduced. Or perhaps reducing one peak of that sound will change the frequency of all sound and Change the sound to something different than just lowering the volume of that same sound in one point.
.
Hmmm well yeah maybe like I said unnecessary question from me but somehow I just can't imagine how it does not exceed that 1V value hence just picking up the whole sound.

I don't understand why all this is so important to you when you don't even have a guitar. And then you want to build circuits to produce effects? Makes no sense to me.

I just liked the sound of the guitar from Deftone in music Sex Tape. So I wanted to make my own guitar pedal and maybe start playing on guitar.

It is maybe important because I just can't imagine it and my brain says I need to know it. I'm a bit of a perfectionist plus I got annoyed from the fact how many research I've done and still all of it is illogical. Like I did some adding waves diagram, but couldn't find the example of how the Input looks like or how big is the amplitude of the input or why even if one string is 0.8V adding 5 more it must exceed 1 V the max of pickup but it didn't.

This and many of things I have said are conflicting with each other. So that's why I was so persistent in using my example of use the example with value or with graph because I am a slow learner. But somehow as well I thought like those weren't very much the answer to my questions.

Still I don't know how RMS is helpful in creating circuits I saw some videos on YT where people described doing for example distortion effect using peak values of signals. To know how to clip it etc.

 

[Xenon02]

Chatgpt is an idiot. It has collected garbage for you from the web.
You need a better crap detector.

The pickup is linear, it does not limit the output.
The amplifier is non-linear, it does limit the signal at its input.

I mean yea but I couldn't find any other sources because most websites I've linked just showed some graphs without units, how the sound of different frequences add up but nothing about how the input looks like of the pickup how big the amplitude the input can be because output is limited. And why the signal from the link in post#1 of all single string voltages which can have 0.8V summing the rest 5 strings will not exceed this max pickup voltage, in which I've shown that there is a point in which all peaks adds even if they are phase shifted or have different frequences, still it stand with 1V, if that super big peak is not reduced then I don't know what happens with super big peaks which should result in 4.8V at some point but didn't happen.

To summarize it, there are 2 conflicting things :
- The sum of all voltages, if one string can have 0.8V and the rest strings are like 0.7V or 0.8V the sum of all 6 strings at some point should be 4.8V no matter of the phase shift or frequency, all 6 strings must exceed that value for a small time. But the pickup can make maks 1V that's the limit. Same goes with input signal. But input signal has no limits while output signal has limits.

- the units of the input signal. I usually saw in websites I've shown that the sound/vibration waves adding up usually exceeded that value "1" without unit so what does this amplitude mean to the pickup if he sees the input amplitude with at peak "10", will the pickup change that "10" input peak into 10V,10mV,1V ?? Dunno Input doesn't have limits while output has it is 1V so I don't know how pickup interprets this input amplitude. Conflicting thing which is still the same unknown unit hence unknown amplitude in the output what is "20" peak in input signal for pickup ? The problem is the input if input has no limits then how will the pickup interpret the "20" peak or "100" peak amplitude ... if "20" is for him 1V then "1000" peak input must be also 1V because that is max and that cuts some sound because it is "reduced".

 

[Baluncore]

I mean yea but I couldn't find any other sources because most websites I've linked just showed some graphs without units, ...

If you cannot find reality, what hope does ChatGPT have?

Select the pickup that suits your style.
If you want lower-distortion, pluck fewer strings and use an insensitive pickup.

If you generate too-big a signal with the pickup, it will be distorted by the amplifier, but you selected that pickup, because that is exactly what you wanted.

 

[Xenon02]

If you cannot find reality, what hope does ChatGPT have?

Still it was worth a try.
Because how people made pickup not knowing the input itself ? I know I won't be making one but still.

that's why I am still waiting for the answer to these questions below that are a conflicts :>

To summarize it, there are 2 conflicting things :
- The sum of all voltages, if one string can have 0.8V and the rest strings are like 0.7V or 0.8V the sum of all 6 strings at some point should be 4.8V no matter of the phase shift or frequency, all 6 strings must exceed that value for a small time. But the pickup can make maks 1V that's the limit. Same goes with input signal. But input signal has no limits while output signal has limits.

- the units of the input signal. I usually saw in websites I've shown that the sound/vibration waves adding up usually exceeded that value "1" without unit so what does this amplitude mean to the pickup if he sees the input amplitude with at peak "10", will the pickup change that "10" input peak into 10V,10mV,1V ?? Dunno Input doesn't have limits while output has it is 1V so I don't know how pickup interprets this input amplitude. Conflicting thing which is still the same unknown unit hence unknown amplitude in the output what is "20" peak in input signal for pickup ? The problem is the input if input has no limits then how will the pickup interpret the "20" peak or "100" peak amplitude ... if "20" is for him 1V then "1000" peak input must be also 1V because that is max and that cuts some sound because it is "reduced".

 

[Baluncore]

that's why I am still waiting for the answer to these questions below that are a conflicts :>

They conflict only in your head, because you demand freedom of choice, then refuse to accept the consequences of that choice.

Millions of people are happy with electric guitar pickups and amplifiers. Only you demand that, every pickup, must work with every amplifier, without the possibility of distortion. You have clearly chosen the wrong instrument.

 

[Xenon02]

They conflict only in your head, because you demand freedom of choice, then refuse to accept the consequences of that choice.

Where I do that ?

Millions of people are happy with electric guitar pickups and amplifiers. Only you demand that, every pickup, must work with every amplifier, without the possibility of distortion. You have clearly chosen the wrong instrument.

When everybody says that pickups do not distort the sound then there is a conflict with the example I gave and the example from websites :

https://sound-au.com/articles/guitar-voltage.htm

https://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2355856&seqNum=5

https://nsinstruments.com/principles/linear.html

So I made something similar :

This is just an input with max value "3" it is not voltage just input amplitude. Like in the articles/websites but still doesn't answer anything hence doesn't say how pickup understands those peaks.
that's why those questions I've set before still matters.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The sum of all voltages, if one string can have 0.8V and the rest strings are like 0.7V or 0.8V the sum of all 6 strings at some point should be 4.8V no matter of the phase shift or frequency, all 6 strings must exceed that value for a small time. But the pickup can make maks 1V that's the limit. Same goes with input signal. But input signal has no limits while output signal has limits.

You don't know that a .8 volt signal from each string individually is additive to 4.8 volts with six strings. There is no voltage input to a guitar pickup. The pickup is a transducer. That's like wondering what the voltage input to a microphone is. You do not have inputs as a measurable voltage going into a guitar pickup. You only have one output. The graphs you've posted are not representative of anything except someone's idea of how waves add. You can do the same thing in your favorite spreadsheet. I gave one reason why I believe the voltages do not add linearly in a guitar pickup. It seems to bounce off of you without consideration. I may be wrong or slightly off in this and if I am I welcome a response from someone.
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You need to get a guitar and use a speaker driven from a source to excite the strings and make some measurements. Download audacity to do some of this.

 

[Baluncore]

This is just an input with max value "3" it is not voltage just input amplitude.

Input amplitude is converted by the transducer to a voltage.

Like in the articles/websites but still doesn't answer anything hence doesn't say how pickup understands those peaks.

The pickup is linear, with low intelligence. It cannot understand anything, it does not distort.

that's why those questions I've set before still matters.

Only to you, not to the rest of the world.

 

[Xenon02]

Input amplitude is converted by transducer to voltage.

Amplitude of the input doesn't matter ? Nothing at all no matter the amplitude of the input the output will do something with it or randomly gives some equivalent voltage on the output from random peaks.

The pickup is linear, with low intelligence. It cannot understand anything, it does not distort.

So if input is "0.5" then the output is also 0.5V ? Dunno.

Only to you, not to the rest of the world.

Yes for me, sorry for asking. I will soon stop. I won't again.

The pickup is a transducer. That's like wondering what the voltage input to a microphone is.

Like here ?

Just tried to understand because everytime you strike the strings the sounds is the same so maybe the input is the same or very similar (same amplitude/frequency). So there must be some rule how it works out the input signal into output it cannot be random. So amplitude had to matter or something. So if 4.8V of the sum of 6 strings could happen or should happen does not just because is weird.


PS.
Of course the output voltage of a signal consist of all input frequencies signals so now it is up to the circuit how to module/mix it, like reducing one frequency of a specific sound which dunno what it leads to. Distorition is something of creating different frequencies from the original waveform. So like old frequencies don't apply and new are created or something like that.

But yea striking 2 strings at the same time you hear they sound the same all the time. So if the amplitude is so wiggly and sometimes has this peak I draw that represents nothing then I don't know how this transducer interprets input, what is the max input value that can get to the pickup, or how it lineary changes input into output like if 0.6V is the peak value of the output what is the equivelant of that peak on the input ? Again is Output = 0.6V then Input = ??

 

[Baluncore]

Distorition is something of creating different frequencies from the original waveform. So like old frequencies don't apply and new are created or something like that.

Distortion is non-linear. The old frequencies are still there, but more frequencies appear as harmonics of the inputs, plus sum and difference frequencies.

Again is Output = 0.6V then Input = ??

Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.
Linear means there is no distortion and no new frequency terms created.

 

[Xenon02]

Distortion is non-linear. The old frequencies are still there, but more frequencies appear as harmonics of the inputs, plus sum and difference frequencies.

Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.
Linear means there is no distortion and no new frequency terms created.

So it means that if Output is 0.6V then Input is "0.6" Wave vibration amplitude as I understand it cannot be "1.2" or any other value it must be "0.6" because it follows the output value in voltage. Although you've said about scale factor so.

About distortion good to know that old frequencies are still there, good to know.

PS.
Because the pickup does not reduce the amplitude of the input so there is no scale factor ? It must be 0.6V output = "0.6" Wave vibration input ????? Because when I showed the orange one with scaled version of the black signal or rather reduced. Then it was incorrect.

Did I understand it correctly ? Because It cannot be reduced as I know and that's how I interpreted the scale factor. Or rather pickups has the same scale factor or it changes everytime and it is not that easy as I thought. Dunno. I just gave an arbitrary example.

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Xenon02 concerning your diagram in post #69. What is that supposed to mean? You have sound waves going into the mic, sound waves coming out of the speaker, and electrical signals in between. So what? Where is the voltage on the input as well as the output of the transducers? There is none.
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You need to do as I said setting up an experiment with a guitar. View the signals in a spectral display using audacity.

 

[Baluncore]

It must be 0.6V output = "0.6" Wave vibration input ?????

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.
– Leo Tolstoy. 1894.

 

[Xenon02]

@Xenon02 concerning your diagram in post #69. What is that supposed to mean? You have sound waves going into the mic, sound waves coming out of the speaker, and electrical signals in between. So what? Where is the voltage on the input as well as the output of the transducers? There is none.
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You need to do as I said setting up an experiment with a guitar. View the signals in a spectral display using audacity.

Dunno.

I imagined it like that :

The whole signal is scaled, like you have the high input and it's is just scaled by the pickup. The shape and everything is the same just scaled down by the pickup.

The scale factor is unknown if it's random or what but that's how I can somehow logically understand how the input is scaled in the output.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.
– Leo Tolstoy. 1894.

Again I apologize for me ;> If what I said is somehow correct then there is only one thing and I am done ... that's how lineary I see it in the picture or rather how the pickup scales the input if it indeed scales. It scales the final result of the input so.

 

[sophiecentaur]

. I'm a bit of a perfectionist

Which bit? Is it the bit that uses the wrong terminology? The effect that you are looking at is not 'interference'; it simple vector addition of signals at one location. To a first approximation, the output is the simple addition of the values of each of the signals involved.

To be honest, though. Perfect linearity of the pickup would depend on the magnetic field being uniform all over the flux gap so that it would be the same for all displacements of the string. Also, induced emf would probably be proportional to the string velocity in some pickups (as with some phono cartridges). I believe that the induced emf in the coil could be due to the change in the magnetic reluctance path as the string changes position. But now we're further down that rabbit hole and wasting quite a lot of our time down there. ;-)

First things first; learn about amplifiers first (and how to build them) .Learn about signal level handling and the problems of linearising amplifiers. There are a million and one IC audio amplifiers for small signals. Plenty of fun to be had there without bothering about the guitar pickup part of the exercise.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Dunno.

I imagined it like that :

Oh you can't be serious. Something is the way you think it is because you imagined it that way?

 

[Xenon02]

Oh you can't be serious. Something is the way you think it is because you imagined it that way?

I don't know, I read it is linear so I tried to show an example.
Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.
Linear means there is no distortion and no new frequency terms created.

So no distortions, no new frequencies, Input has the same shape as the output only the scale is different because maybe pickup has it's own scale factor ... I don't know. Just making conclusion from what I have.
I don't know how to tell you that I just thought of it like that or pictured it like that. That's why I said if it's something like that ... Did I say "I imagined it like that so it is that and there is no way it is wrong". I just followed what was written and made an example ...

I also followed that the pickup has some max value on the output because someone wrote about it I didn't get it out of nowhere. So probably (I don't know for sure), the input isn't limitless and has it's max value like pickup that cannot exceed, and the pickup factor just reduces the whole signal and that's it ... I don't know if there is something like pickup factor that is scaling the input value. I just pictured it like that from the quote :

Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.

So Output = Input with a factor so like Output = Input * Factor.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I don't know, I read it is linear so I tried to show an example.
Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.
Linear means there is no distortion and no new frequency terms created.

So no distortions, no new frequencies, Input has the same shape as the output only the scale is different because maybe pickup has it's own scale factor ... I don't know. Just making conclusion from what I have.
I don't know how to tell you that I just thought of it like that or pictured it like that. That's why I said if it's something like that ... Did I say "I imagined it like that so it is that and there is no way it is wrong". I just followed what was written and made an example ...

I also followed that the pickup has some max value on the output because someone wrote about it I didn't get it out of nowhere. So probably (I don't know for sure), the input isn't limitless and has it's max value like pickup that cannot exceed, and the pickup factor just reduces the whole signal and that's it ... I don't know if there is something like pickup factor that is scaling the input value. I just pictured it like that from the quote :

Linear means that the output follows the input, with a scale factor only.

So Output = Input with a factor so like Output = Input * Factor.

That really doesn't get to the crux of the issue.
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The issue by my observations are:
You cannot measure input voltage on a guitar pickup. You seem to imply that the input is a known constant and that is not something that is easily done.
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The other issue is you seem to believe it is impossible for a guitar pickup to output more than a volt. This is also false. I don't know the standards and it may be common practice attempt to keep the signal output below a volt.

 

[Xenon02]

The issue by my observations are:
You cannot measure input voltage on a guitar pickup. You seem to imply that the input is a known constant and that is not something that is easily done.

I implied that the Input is a vibration signal not an input voltage. The pickup picks the vibrations so it must be something physical, the strings goes up and down in a specific frequency like a sinewave, so I thought the sinwave or waveform is the input of the pickup not voltage. That's why I was using "2" and not 2V as an input value, while output I clearly used Volts as a unit.

So it's something random ? Pickup will make it into voltage no matter the input amplitude value ?

Or perhaps indeed the input signal is unmeasurable because this is only vibration, and there is no input signal in the pickup. So the videos I saw where just a myth a bit, or I didn't understand something.
If that's what you've tried to tell me then okey the vibration isn't the signal input or rather it does not create sinus vibrating signal, just only the change in magnetic field, and the pickup just makes an output. So no input sinus I guess. That's what I was supposed to understand ?

The other issue is you seem to believe it is impossible for a guitar pickup to output more than a volt. This is also false. I don't know the standards and it may be common practice attempt to keep the signal output below a volt.

If it's false ok, I'll try to find more info about it.

 

[Averagesupernova]

So it's something random ? Pickup will make it into voltage no matter the input amplitude value ?

You are putting words in my mouth. I've never said that.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Or perhaps indeed the input signal is unmeasurable because this is only vibration, and there is no input signal in the pickup.

I never said it was unmeasurable. I said it is difficult to measure.
-
A true accurate definition of what the input is needs to include the distance the string is moving at the pickup. Needs to be uniform in distance to the pickup compared to all strings. Also, several tests need to be done with different tensions with the same string. In other words, different frequencies using the same thickness string. Also I would like to see comparisons between different parts of the pickup with the same string and pitch. Without these things nailed down you really only know that a vibrating string makes a signal come out of the pickup.

 

[Xenon02]

You are putting words in my mouth. I've never said that.

I also have not said that the input is in voltage ;>
I was deducing but I did it incorrectly my bad here sorry.

A true accurate definition of what the input is needs to include the distance the string is moving at the pickup. Needs to be uniform in distance to the pickup compared to all strings. Also, several tests need to be done with different tensions with the same string. In other words, different frequencies using the same thickness string. Also I would like to see comparisons between different parts of the pickup with the same string and pitch. Without these things nailed down you really only know that a vibrating string makes a signal come out of the pickup.

So it's better to just assume that I have some output voltage and be happy with it then yes ? And not think about input signal ? It just works I guess. Although these vibrations are interesting in which I'll just pass I guess

Okey then last thing then, usually the electric signal of a chord/single string etc do not exceed 1V, I do not mean now that pickup max voltage output is 1V I just say now that usually the output voltage is usually 1V, so how 6 strings with amplitude 0.8V it's peak is equal also 0.8V and not higher ? It is now linear adding all sinewaves right all sinewaves from all 6 strings together. And the sum is 0.8V like single string amplitude ?
I used superposition and I just saw that different frequencies will always result in one moment where all peaks add up. So it is weird though that it stays only in 0.8V the sum of all 6 strings which individually are 0.8V as well.

 

[Averagesupernova]

By deducing or whatever, you are implying that all tones are picked up the same. We have covered this. It is my suspicion that such is not the case. The higher pitched strings will not swing as far in their oscillation. They swing faster but cover less distance. So, we don't really know. However, in reading one of your links I did see that it was common for guitar amps to have a better high end response which implies the low tones generally come out of the guitar with a higher amplitude. This response of the amp tends to flatten the response. More than once I have wished for the opportunity to delve into the guts of a guitar amp. So far, no one has come to me with an amp problem.

 

[Baluncore]

The higher pitched strings will not swing as far in their oscillation. They swing faster but cover less distance.

Yes. The induced voltage is proportional to the rate the magnetic field cuts the PU coil, which is greatest at the high-frequency end of the octave, so compensates.

The rate that the field cuts the PU coil, is greater for the lower-amplitude higher-harmonics, in the three or so octaves above the string's fundamental at that time.

 

[Drakkith]

Okey then last thing then, usually the electric signal of a chord/single string etc do not exceed 1V, I do not mean now that pickup max voltage output is 1V I just say now that usually the output voltage is usually 1V, so how 6 strings with amplitude 0.8V it's peak is equal also 0.8V and not higher ?

Is this actual data or are you making it up?

 

[Xenon02]

By deducing or whatever, you are implying that all tones are picked up the same. We have covered this. It is my suspicion that such is not the case. The higher pitched strings will not swing as far in their oscillation. They swing faster but cover less distance. So, we don't really know. However, in reading one of your links I did see that it was common for guitar amps to have a better high end response which implies the low tones generally come out of the guitar with a higher amplitude. This response of the amp tends to flatten the response. More than once I have wished for the opportunity to delve into the guts of a guitar amp. So far, no one has come to me with an amp problem.

Wait a sec so in the link from post#1 the output voltage is not measure from pickup ?

But if still the pickup makes higher amplitudę for the bridge part then again high amplitude adds up, the rule of superposition and so applied and all sounds from 6 strings have different frequencies so still it contradicts with the fact that there must be high peak and there is not. What is the flaw of superposition here ? In fact it was confirmed here that output signal I can use superposition on output signal. Because adding Individual signals from E1 and E2 will look the same as if E1+E2 already where played at the same time. So the sum of individual is equal to the voltage output.

Is this actual data or are you making it up?

From first link in post#1 I took as a reference E1 and E2 but the chor consists of 6 strings while here I had E1 and E2. But seeing that the output is high because 0.8V or a bit smaller like 0.6V then I deduced that E3 ... E6 of that chor is also high so adding all 6 up for chor should result in high peak although in the article it says it is max 0.8V which doesn't make sense to me, knowing the superposition or the fact that peak values add up at some point because all signals have different frequencies

 

[Averagesupernova]

I don't know where the voltage is taken in the link in post #1. However, the quote below comes from that link.

It's also easy to see why most guitar amps have a significant amount of treble boost - it's necessary because the output of the higher strings is almost always lower than expected.

 

[Xenon02]

I don't know where the voltage is taken in the link in post #1. However, the quote below comes from that link.

Here it says at the top pickup voltage and not amp voltage so. E1 In Samick TV is 800mV peak, E2 is 200mV peak so the rest of the strings have smaller amplitude ?

Still the sum of E1 and E1 should give at some point 1V looking at this graph I've made

Why it must ? No matter what phase shift I've applied it always had this one peak the sum of all peaks.

So why is it that the chord is 0.85 V ? Why the sum is different from what I add here or is my superposition incorrect if so there is my geogebra link in first post, I would be glad to see how it should look like

 

[Drakkith]

From first link in post#1

Stop assuming the data in that article is accurate. It isn't, the author of the article said so themselves, more than once, and I already touched on this in a previous post. You can see that the data is wildly different between two different guitars and doesn't even following a similar pattern, making anything except the broadest of statements about the data unreliable.

Still the sum of E1 and E1 should give at some point 1V looking at this graph I've made

The voltages listed are RMS voltages, That means it's an average, so any peaks have been averaged out.

 

[Xenon02]

The voltages listed are RMS voltages, That means it's an average, so any peaks have been averaged out.

RMS and peak voltage is listed. In the bracket (). It's even written Average RMS (Peak)

The author was repeating these measure and they were similar, of course not accurate but very similar. Good point of reference.

So my calculations where conflicting, peaks should add up at some point so E1 + E2 = 1V, the chord is 0.8V which doesn't make sense because the chord consist of E1 = 0.8V and E2 of 0.2V

Their peaks must add up because of different frequencies so peaks must meet and because of superposition.

Any answer why superposition didn't work ? Logically E1+E2 = 1V peak, and there are 4 more strings so the peak should be bigger than >1V but it is 0.8V nonsense. Superposition didn 't work, logic behind it is illogical

 

[Drakkith]

RMS and peak voltage is listed. In the bracket (). It's even written Average RMS (Peak)

Ah, so it is. My mistake.

So my calculations where conflicting, peaks should add up at some point so E1 + E2 = 1V, the chord is 0.8V which doesn't make sense because the chord consist of E1 = 0.8V and E2 of 0.2V

How hard did the author strike the strings for each note and then the chord?

 

[Xenon02]

How hard did the author strike the strings for each note and then the chord?

That's a good point. Maybe you are right about that part that striking the chord results in smaller amplitude of each string. The question is, is it that radically reduced ? So that E1 from 0.8V will be smaller like 0.4V or 0.5V so that the rest strings will have like 0.1V

Although how much the amplitude changes. Author said he was striking them the same way repeatedly. So I assumed that E1 is equal 0.8V. But isn't the amplitude more dependent on the frequency like it was said before ? Like bridge E1 was 0.8V and E1 on neck is 0.45 V because of different frequencies than how hard it was stroke.

So let's say the chord that consist of E1 is 0.8V then the chord peak doesn't have any sense. If E1 on the bridge changes drastically from 0.8V to 0.6 V then it might be possible to have output of 0.8V when the rest of the strings have less than 0.1V if it makes any sense.

But yea did the E1 amplitude changed then the author played chord ? Single E1 is 0.8V then what is the value of E1 in chord of the bridge part ?

Interesting

 

[Drakkith]

That's a good point. Maybe you are right about that part that striking the chord results in smaller amplitude of each string.

My point is that the results in the article are from an almost entirely uncontrolled experiment. You would need to reliably strike the strings the same way each time to get an accurate comparison between the notes and chords. That's just not going to happen by hand. Amplitude, strike location, and strike direction will all vary with each strike by hand. Sometimes insignificantly, sometimes significantly. So trying to draw any conclusions from these numbers is problematic.

 

[sophiecentaur]

What is the flaw of superposition here ?

Superposition has no 'flaws' it's how you think of it and how you try to apply the principle to a particular situation. You have to distinguish between theory and practical results. As with money and heating the house, if you get an apparent disagreement then there's something you forgot.
I can't understand why you appear to be obsessed with what you see as anomalous behaviour. Precise values for pickup sensitivity are really not an issue, assuming you get enough out of it for your amp system. What is much more important is the relative sensitivity of the pickup to all six strings, As I mentioned before, the material and thickness of each string will affect this and many pickups have adjusting screws in an attempt to get balance. It's nigh on impossible to 'strum' all strings to achieve perfect balance.

You also keep talking in terms of 'sine waves' but the waveforms due to each string are far from sinusoidal - particularly on attack. The resultant voltage is the sum of those waveforms and not the sum of just six sine waves. If you want sine waves then you have to use a synthesiser.

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Xenon has it occurred to you to question why RMS and peak do not differ by a factor of 1.414 in the link in post #1. Does that not clue you in that the signal from each string is not a sine wave? You are missing so many things here and just choose to ignore what you don't want to see.

 

[sophiecentaur]

So let's say the chord that consist of E1 is 0.8V then the chord peak doesn't have any sense. If E1 on the bridge changes drastically from 0.8V to 0.6 V then it might be possible to have output of 0.8V when the rest of the strings have less than 0.1V if it makes any sense.

Actually, this comment makes 'no sense' because you refuse to change your opinion (and it's not a matter of personal opinion). The value of the voltage varies in time and is equal to the sum of all the instantaneous volts from the six strings. Statistically, they will add up to a high instantaneous value once in a while. At that time, there may be clipping / cracking due to the dynamic range of the amplification channel.

I have to ask whether you are just waiting for someone on PF to say "OK Xenon, you are right and we're all wrong"

 

[Xenon02]

I have to ask whether you are just waiting for someone on PF to say "OK Xenon, you are right and we're all wrong"

No I do not wait for this.
The answers I read seemed to me not to relate to example I tried to give and sources I used, so I kept asking again or the answer to the question was relating to a different part like power I didn't know why it was important.
I also asked to relate to my examples or so because it was a simplified version of what I tried to ask or give my idea how it would look like. But I see that I annoyed most of people here.

And no it is not about the refusal of changing the opinion rather I see couple of answers, which I take those from websites as a point of reference because people there know what they are saying and some part of the information kept repeating but at some examples I've seen seemed to be conflicting to the theory that was repeating.

@Xenon has it occurred to you to question why RMS and peak do not differ by a factor of 1.414 in the link in post #1. Does that not clue you in that the signal from each string is not a sine wave? You are missing so many things here and just choose to ignore what you don't want to see.

Yes each string is not a sine wave, sorry for this part, but still the sum of peaks was incorrect. I haven't checked the difference between RMS and peak.
Instead of ignoring I rather expected to relate to my answers like "this diagram doesn't make sense because", "the diagram can look similar but", "the values from the website E1 and E2 vs chord with E1 and E2 sum aren't equal because" "in theory adding peaks like you've said would indeed give 1V but in the picture it is 0.85V because ... " so on and so on, I don't know how to describe it better. But I saw something about something about Power which I didn't know what it has to the amplitude of the voltage when I strike the string, because it is about vibration or when I gave diagram I had an answer like where is the math, in which I used the values from the website, or why do peaks must exceed 1V, or my geogebra example where I proved that no matter the phase shift the sum of all signals their peak must sum at some point : https://www.geogebra.org/graphing/merap3ws. I also expected some answers like "this part is correct but this not of your post" etc.

If it's alot then I am sorry for asking much.

Statistically, they will add up to a high instantaneous value once in a while. At that time, there may be clipping / cracking due to the dynamic range of the amplification channel.

Perhaps they clip, I thought it does not because playing the chord or something the same time usually or practically sounded the same without a bit of distortion. But I can imagine it. So what I said about that the sum will result in high peak which is the sum of all peaks of the sounds once in a while so my geogebra thing wasn't incorrect as I assume.

My point is that the results in the article are from an almost entirely uncontrolled experiment. You would need to reliably strike the strings the same way each time to get an accurate comparison between the notes and chords. That's just not going to happen by hand. Amplitude, strike location, and strike direction will all vary with each strike by hand. Sometimes insignificantly, sometimes significantly. So trying to draw any conclusions from these numbers is problematic.

Makes sense, though it is possible that from 0.8V E1 to reduce drastically when E1 is in chord so that the max is 0.85V ? Hence the E1 when is in chord must reduce from 0.8V to smaller like 0.6V so that the rest of the strings will add up if their amplitude is smaller than 0.1V. I guess ? If some part what I said makes sense then let me know.

 

[Averagesupernova]

All this discussion and have yet to hook a guitar up to a laptop and look at some signals in audacity or something similar. There is only so much this thread will take until you come with better info than a bunch of stuff collected from the web and wrong assumptions made by you. Geogebra appears to be a website that can add some sine waves. Big deal. As said before that can be done on your favorite spreadsheet. It's simple addition. How multiple strings react with each other in the field of the sensor generating signals that are not pure sine waves is reality.

 

[Xenon02]

All this discussion and have yet to hook a guitar up to a laptop and look at some signals in audacity or something similar. There is only so much this thread will take until you come with better info than a bunch of stuff collected from the web and wrong assumptions made by you. Geogebra appears to be a website that can add some sine waves. Big deal. As said before that can be done on your favorite spreadsheet. It's simple addition. How multiple strings react with each other in the field of the sensor generating signals that are not pure sine waves is reality.

Pure sin waves or not, even if a string generates non sin wave signal which will for sure, that waveform is constructed with a bunch of sinwaves, and my geogebra was only supposed to prove that the sum of all signals there is one moment that the peaks adds up no matter what ... That's all. But I see some irony from you.

So that's why this question came :

Makes sense, though it is possible that from 0.8V E1 to reduce drastically when E1 is in chord so that the max is 0.85V ? Hence the E1 when is in chord must reduce from 0.8V to smaller like 0.6V so that the rest of the strings will add up if their amplitude is smaller than 0.1V. I guess ? If some part what I said makes sense then let me know.

I just wondered if the chord could just make the E1 reduced from 0.8V to smaller like 0.6V, It's just a guess of why the chord could have the same value as single E1 sound. And to add to this I proved before and it was said that all the peaks should add up at some point so peak should be bigger and it wasn't. So I just thought

"hmmm then maybe if single E1 was 0.8V, E2 was 0.2V and chord which consist of E1 and E2 has 0.85V something doesn't add up, maybe E1 amplitude as well as E2 etc are reduced when played at the same time ??? because now they interact with each other or something if so then can E1 from single strike 0.8V can now be smaller like 0.6V or smaller because other strings are now vibrating as well"

Process of thinking of what other people said here ...

 

[sophiecentaur]

The answers I read seemed to me not to relate to example I tried to give and sources I used, so I kept asking again or the answer to the question was relating to a different part like power I didn't know why it was important.

You have, as I mentioned above, asked a question that really doesn't mean a lot. You are trying to run this process on your own terms, leaping in, half way through without taking on board the basics. Why do you think the answers you've been getting are not satisfying you? It's because you are trying to run before you can walk. You should try some other, very fundamental sources, like the basics of signals that can be found in a decent EE text book. Not the style of many, these days, I know; there are a lot of newbies who seem to think that the basics don't count. There are other forums that are chock full of nonsensical ideas about musical signals and processing. Very entertaining but not good sourses for getting a proper understanding.

Perhaps they clip, I thought it does not because playing the chord or something the same time usually or practically sounded the same without a bit of distortion.

You cannot trust your ears by listening to non-critical material. Experienced guitar players can spot things that you would never do, at this stage. Guitars are so far from ideal sound sources that you need to switch to an analysis using more straightforward, theoretical signals.