How Does Power Affect Force in Space Travel?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between power and force in the context of space travel, particularly focusing on an electrically powered spaceship with a constant power output. Participants explore the implications of constant power on acceleration and force, questioning the assumptions underlying these relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if a spaceship operates with constant power, it should accelerate with constant acceleration, leading to a constant force, which they believe implies a linear relationship between force and power.
  • Another participant argues that power is defined as the rate of doing work, and for a constant force, power is the product of force and velocity, indicating that as velocity increases, the power required also increases.
  • Some participants highlight the complexities introduced by the rocket equation, emphasizing that the mass of the propellant decreases over time, which affects acceleration.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of power in relation to the energy expended on propellant, with differing views on how this affects the overall power dynamics of the system.
  • One participant questions the assumption that both power and force can remain constant, suggesting that as velocity increases, acceleration must decrease if power is held constant.
  • Another participant points out that the method of propulsion (e.g., rocket vs. helicopter) significantly influences the calculations and assumptions involved in determining power requirements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between power, force, and acceleration, with no consensus reached. Some agree on the need for a deeper understanding of the principles involved, while others challenge the assumptions made about constant power and force.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of applying certain equations without considering the specific context of propulsion methods and the effects of relativistic speeds on mass and acceleration.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring the dynamics of propulsion systems in space travel, particularly in understanding the interplay between power, force, and acceleration in various contexts.

  • #61
rcgldr said:
Still switch this case to a rocket "hovering" above the moon (no atmosphere), the rocket isn't moving, so no work done on the rocket, only on the propellent expelled from the rocket. This is a similar case to the hovering helicopter (the heli doesn't move, only the air). I think it's a reasonable comparason.
Yeah, for hovering, the equations are similar. Though, mass flow rate has to be factored in separately.

So let's see...

F = mg = -\dot{m} V_p

P = -\frac{1}{2} V_p^2 \dot{m}

\dot{m} = -\frac{mg}{V_p}

P = \frac{1}{2} mgV_p

m(t) = m_0 e^{-\frac{gt}{V_p}}

P(t) = \frac{1}{2} m_0 gV_p e^{-\frac{gt}{V_p}}

Ok, maybe not so similar, but the mg term is the same.
 
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  • #62
rcgldr said:
That should be "m-dot": ṁp, the mass flow per unit time (not mass flow per second, not important here, but the time it takes to reach terminal velocity is not needed to be known).
Ok rcgldr, your remarks are understood, but I just wanted to make it as pictorial as possible for someone out of physics community.
 
  • #63
rcgldr said:
That should be "m-dot": ṁp, the mass flow per unit time (not mass flow per second
norrrbit said:
Ok rcgldr, your remarks are understood, but I just wanted to make it as pictorial as possible for someone out of physics community.
My main concern was the impression from your previous post that the expelled propellent would accelerate to terminal velocity in 1 second. Using mass flow rate eliminates having to specify how long it takes for the propellent to reach terminal velocity.
 

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