How does pressure act in all directions if gravity is downward only

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter iVenky
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Act Gravity Pressure
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of pressure in fluids and solids, particularly how pressure acts in all directions despite gravity being a downward force. Participants explore the mechanisms behind horizontal forces in liquids and the implications for solids, examining concepts such as internal stress and shear stress.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions what triggers horizontal forces in liquids if gravity acts only downward, suggesting that pressure differences between air and liquid may play a role.
  • Another participant agrees with the idea and suggests analyzing a small parcel of water, noting that pressure forces from surrounding water can lead to horizontal movement in addition to the weight of the liquid.
  • A third participant adds that molecular motion at finite temperatures contributes to the behavior of fluids.
  • Concerns are raised about the stability of vertical arrangements of solids compared to liquids, with a participant arguing that gravity will always drive pieces to the lowest level.
  • Another participant emphasizes that internal stresses from surrounding molecules also contribute to horizontal movement in liquids, explaining that unequal principal stresses lead to shear stresses that cause fluids to deform.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the mechanisms of pressure and movement in fluids and solids, with no consensus reached on the fundamental triggers for horizontal forces in liquids.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the role of internal stresses and shear forces in fluids, but the discussion does not resolve the complexities of how these forces interact with gravitational forces or how they apply to solids.

iVenky
Messages
212
Reaction score
12
I have a fundamental question about the pressure and I am not sure if my reasoning is correct.

Let's take an example of 7 stones shown below. They don't fall because the center of mass of each stone is falling right under the stone below. If I replace the same thing with a liquid, and we know that the molecules are free to move in a liquid, they all spread out and become flat until the net potential energy is minimum. My fundamental question is what triggered this horizontal force in the first place if gravity is a downward (vertical force). There needs to be some horizontal force to make the molecules move in the horizontal direction. Is it because there is some horizontal force present already in a liquid even in the absence of gravity that makes the molecules move away from each other due to the pressure difference between air (more gaps) and liquid? And it's the same in all directions because only then there is no net force present on the molecule itself that stops it from creating gaps in the liquid?

If that's the case, even solids experience this pressure difference or net force acting on it due to the atmosphere but it doesn't move like liquid because it requires more force to break the force between the molecules. Is this intuition of pressure right?
 

Attachments

  • 7stones.JPG
    7stones.JPG
    4.2 KB · Views: 149
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Leo Liu
Physics news on Phys.org
iVenky said:
There needs to be some horizontal force to make the molecules move in the horizontal direction.

I think you are getting at the right idea. You can try and analyse what's happening by considering a small parcel of water, which will be acted upon by pressure forces from all the surrounding water (surface forces) in addition to its weight (body force). Even in a direction orthogonal to the gravitational field, in a non-equilibrium situation the pressure forces on either side of the parcel may differ in magnitude which will result in the parcel accelerating horizontally too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
And don't forget that at any finite Temperature everything is constantly wiggling.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban
iVenky said:
... My fundamental question is what triggered this horizontal force in the first place if gravity is a downward (vertical force). There needs to be some horizontal force to make the molecules move in the horizontal direction.
That vertical arrangement is impossible to achieve (for more than few seconds perhaps) if you replace the stones, which enjoy some superficial friction, with steel ball bearings or magnets.
Even having a vertical direction, gravity will be the motor to take each piece to the lowest possible level.
 
iVenky said:
My fundamental question is what triggered this horizontal force in the first place if gravity is a downward (vertical force). There needs to be some horizontal force to make the molecules move in the horizontal direction.
Gravity is not the only force acting on the molecules. There is also the internal stress from the other water molecules. This is an internal force so it cannot cause an acceleration of the center of mass, but it certainly can make the liquid spread horizontally.

Fluids deform under shear stress. In a “pile” the stress is primarily axial compression. This means that the principal stresses are unequal, and any time that is the case you will have shear stresses at 45 degrees. So the fluid will “slump” down until the principal stresses are equal and you are left with only an isotropic pressure and no shear stresses.
 
  • Like
  • Informative
Likes   Reactions: Leo Liu, vanhees71 and etotheipi

Similar threads

  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
7K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 50 ·
2
Replies
50
Views
5K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
7K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K