How does this derivative work? And why the speed of light remains?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and implications of relativistic momentum, mass, and energy, particularly focusing on the behavior of mass and the speed of light in the context of relativistic mechanics. Participants explore the mathematical relationships and transformations involved in these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the expression for relativistic momentum and how mass appears to vanish during the change of variables from momentum to velocity.
  • Others argue that mass does not disappear but is treated as a constant in the differentiation process.
  • A participant questions the behavior of the speed of light, asking if it remains invariant in the context of the derivative.
  • One participant suggests an alternative approach by expressing velocity as a function of momentum, leading to a different integral for kinetic energy.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the change of variable in the equations and acknowledges a need for further reflection on their understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the treatment of mass in the derivation, with differing views on whether it vanishes or remains present. The discussion includes multiple competing interpretations and remains unresolved regarding the implications of these transformations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about specific steps in the derivation, particularly regarding the assumptions made during the change of variables and the treatment of constants like mass and the speed of light.

mcastillo356
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TL;DR
There is a step I don't understand.
Relativistic Momentum, Mass, and Energy

Momentum and mass

(...), the classic equations for conserving momentum and energy are not adequate for the analysis of high-speed collisions. (...)

The momentum of a particle moving with velocity ##v## is given by

$$p=\cfrac{mv}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\qquad{R-10}$$

ENERGY

In relativistic mechanics, as in classic mechanics, the net force on a particle is equal to the time rate of change of the momentum of the particle. Considering one-dimensional motion only, we have

$$F_{net}=\cfrac{dp}{dt}\qquad{R-11}$$

We wish to find an expression for the kinetic energy. To do this, we multiply both sides of equation ##R-11## by the displacement ##dl##. This gives

$$F_{net}\,dl=\cfrac{dp}{dt}\,dl\qquad{R-12}$$

where we identify the term on the left as the work and the term on the right as the change in kinetic energy. Substituting ##v\,dt## for ##dl## in the term on the right we obtain

$$dK=\cfrac{dp}{dt}\,v\,dt=v\,dp$$

Integrating both sides gives

$$K=\displaystyle\int_0^{P_f}v\,dp\qquad{R.13}$$

To evaluate this integral, we first change the integration variable from ##p## to ##v##. Using Equation ##R-10## and the quotient rule, we have

$$dp=d\Bigg (\cfrac{v}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\Bigg )$$

Why in the step above ##m## disappears?

Attempt

##dp=m\cdot{dv}=d\Bigg (\cfrac{m\cdot{v}}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\Bigg )##, so they cancel.:oldconfused:

(...)

##\cfrac{[1-(v^2/c^2)]^{1/2}\,dv-v\frac{1}{2}[1-(v^2/c^2)]^{-\frac{1}{2}}\bigg (-\cfrac{2vdv}{c^2}\bigg )}{1-(v^2/c^2)^{3/2}}=\cfrac{dv}{[1-(v^2/c^2)]^{3/2}}##

Substituting for ##dp## in Equation ##R-13## gives

$$K=\displaystyle\int_0^{P_f}vdp=m\displaystyle\int_0^{v_f}\cfrac{vdv}{[1-(v^2/c^2)]^{3/2}}=mc^2\Bigg (\cfrac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v_f^2/c^2)}}-1\Bigg )$$

So

$$K=\cfrac{mc^2}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}-mc^2\qquad{R-14}$$

(In this expression, because the only speed is ##v_f##, the subscript ##f## is not needed)

Defining ##mc^2/\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}## as the total relativistic energy ##E##, Equation ##R-14## can be written

$$E=K+mc^2=\cfrac{mc^2}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\qquad{R-15}$$

where ##mc^2##, called the rest energy ##E_0##, is energy the particle has when it is at rest.

By multiplying both sides of Equation ##R-10## by ##c## and then dividing the resulting equation by Equation ##R-15##, we obtain

$$\cfrac{v}{c}=\cfrac{pc}{E}\qquad{R-16}$$

which can be useful when trying to solve for the speed ##v##. Eliminating ##v## from Equations ##R-10## and ##R-16##, and solving for ##E^2##, gives

$$E^2=p^2c^2+m^2c^4$$
 
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What is the question exactly?
 
Why in the change of variable from ##p## to ##v## vanishes ##m##. And which is the behavior of ##c##: is this last an invariant of the derivative?. These are my doubts.
 
mcastillo356 said:
Substituting for ##dp## in Equation ##R-13## gives

$$K=\displaystyle\int_0^{P_f}vdp=m\displaystyle\int_0^{v_f}\cfrac{vdv}{[1-(v^2/c^2)]^{3/2}}=mc^2\Bigg (\cfrac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v_f^2/c^2)}}-1\Bigg )$$
But the mass does not dissapear, you have it right there in your expression for K.
c is the speed of light, it is a constant.
 
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Let me think it over again. Your reasoning is perfect. I must be wrong somewhere, but still the change of variable in ##R-10## keeps me wondering.
 
mcastillo356 said:
$$p=\cfrac{mv}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\qquad{R-10}$$
If you take the derivative of that, m just "gets out" because it is constant:

$$dp =m \, \, d \left(\cfrac{v}{\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}\right) = m \, \, {dv \over [1-(v^2/c^2)]^{3/2}}$$

That is the change of variables you do in your equation R-13.
 
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Note that you can avoid the differentiation, by expressing ##v## as a function of ##p##:
$$p = \gamma mv \implies v = \frac p {\sqrt{m^2 + \frac {p^2}{c^2}}}$$integrating gives:
$$K = c^2\sqrt{m^2 + \frac{p^2}{c^2}} - mc^2$$$$= \frac{pc^2}{v} -mc^2$$$$ = \gamma mc^2 - mc^2$$
 
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Understood inmediatly. Thanks Forum.
 

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