News How has the Bush presidency affected your political views?

[Ivan Seeking]

I was once a die-hard republican. Then came pappa and baby Bush.

Now I feel so betrayed by those who supported Bush that I don't think I will ever view the US political arena the same way. In fact, after the last election, the flag went into the trash, I refuse to say the pledge, and the company of family members who supported him is no longer desired. The republicans may have enjoyed five years - plus three spent hounding Clinton - but they have made an enemy for life.

 

[Townsend]

He hasn't affected my views in any way...I hate politicans and I hate government...that has not changed in any way.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

I grew up thinking I was a Republican because we were white and only Democrats would ever go on welfare and get food stamps, etc... so we starved and did without because of ignorant pride. Flash forward to 1983 and the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon. My dumb butt voted for Ronnie and not too long after that stood and took the oath out of ignorance (it runs in the family) but not for political alliegance reasons I just needed a job and didn't want to go to college, can you say economic draft? Thereafter, knowing that republicans were for a strong military I was all for them. Clinton came along and brought her husband with her and he got busted doing the nasty in the office. This is about the time I started to realize that the military probably wasn't the best place for me. It's also about the time that I stopped hating women simply because they were the same gender as my ex-wife. I have come to realize that no matter what comes out of the mouths of any Rep or Dem they absolutely DO NOT want any other parties in the running with them. I believe its because they know that the American people will believe whatever they shove down their throats and they don't want anyone with any sense to wake them up. The Reps are for big business, as an F'ING BLIND MAN CAN SEE BY THIS ADMINISTRATION and the Dems are more for social reform and the betterment of America as a whole. At least that's how I see it but then again ask me after I've had a triple espresso and 2 pieces of nicorette.

Lets take a brief look at who will be running for Governor of Texas next time. The incumbent: Rick Perry (R)(Texas A&M alum, I could stop right there) with his never-out-of-place haircut. He seems intent on finding every one of his graduating classmates jobs all the while closing state agencies due to lack of funding. Carolyn Strayhorn-whatever(D): I'm sorry, I'm just too tired to wax on about her but I will say that she got smart and removed the photo of her from the State Comptrollers website that showed her with a Flave-a-Flave bling-bling cross around her neck shortly before she announced she would run. A couple of guys no one ever heard of and now to the guy everyone should vote for: KINKY FRIEDMAN! That's right folks, Frontman for the world renowned Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys. I'm not making this up, I couldn't. He is going to stop the Wuss-ification of Texas and has hired the assistance of the man that got Jessie "The Body" Ventura elected in Mississota, or wherever. How can he miss with a slogan like "Why Not?!" He's got my vote. Now all he has to do is get those 45k signature from people that haven't voted in either of the primaries. Go Kinkster!

If you support George Bush on ANYTHING you should probably seek help. How long will it take for America to dig itself out of this quagmire and embarrassment of a presidency? Libertarian-Centrist RULE!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For me, the actions of the last four years go way beyond politics. In fact, much of what I have seen and heard such as some of the the Patriot Act, Gitmo, propoganda like I've never seen, and maybe even a rigged election, are what we used to define the enemy in years past - The Soviets. One thing is for sure: Much of what defines America was tossed in the trash; and the people waved their flags and cheered.

 

[MaxS]

"Told you so."

 

[moose]

My views don't really count because of my age, but I still consider myself a republican. I still don't like political parties in the sense that they almost force people to believe in a set of ideas. I don't despise Bush either, I don't think he is that good of a president but god help us if Hillary gets elected. Oh, one thing to add, I wish McCain became president :(

 

[russ_watters]

He hasn't affected my views in any way...I hate politicans and I hate government...that has not changed in any way.

Ditto for me. No one person can do anything to affect my views. My views come from me.

 

[Rabid]

Well, before 2000, I didn't despise Republicans.
I wasn't eligible to vote until just before the 2000 election and I voted for Gore. But, I live in Florida so my vote didn't count. I didn't follow politics closely until then. As far as my political views, I am Pro-Choice, Pro-environmental protection and I strongly oppose any restrictions to the First Amendment. I think Bush may be the worst president this country has ever seen.
He has led the country to war on lies, is a whore for corporations and the religous right and is destroying civil liberties and has the economic sense of a mentally challenged crackhead.
I continue to go back and forth on whether this is the most corrupt administration or the most incompetent, but it's probably both.

 

[SOS2008]

I was once a die-hard republican. Then came pappa and baby Bush.

Now I feel so betrayed by those who supported Bush that I don't think I will ever view the US political arena the same way. In fact, after the last election, the flag went into the trash, I refuse to say the pledge, and the company of family members who supported him is no longer desired. The republicans may have enjoyed five years - plus three spent hounding Clinton - but they have made an enemy for life.

Bush hasn't changed my political views, but has changed my view of my fellow Americans. Our country has been divided by his self-serving propaganda, to a point it's almost on par with the Civil War--brother against brother. Here's what I mean:

Rally to support Iraq war draws hundreds
Organizers had hoped for far larger response to Saturday’s D.C. protest
Associated Press
Sept. 25, 2005

WASHINGTON - Support for U.S. troops fighting abroad mixed with anger toward antiwar demonstrators at home as hundreds of people, far fewer than organizers had expected, rallied Sunday on the National Mall just a day after a massive protest against the war in Iraq.

“No matter what your ideals are, our sons and daughters are fighting for our freedom,” said Marilyn Faatz, who drove from New Jersey to attend the rally. “We are making a mockery out of this. And we need to stand united, but we are not.”
----------
“The group who spoke here the other day did not represent the American ideals of freedom, liberty and spreading that around the world,” Sen. Jeff Sessions, an Alabama Republican, told the crowd. “I frankly don’t know what they represent, other than blaming America first.”

One sign on the mall read...“Arrest the traitors”; it listed Sheehan’s name first among several people who have spoken against the war.
----------
“Our troops are over there fighting for our rights, and if she was in one of those countries she would not be able to do that,” Vigna said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9478262/

Who has been filling these people's heads with this Bush*t? We are in Iraq fighting for OUR freedom? For OUR rights? How so? We need to stand united (i.e., we need to jump off a cliff along with a moron leading the charge?). Arrest the traitors? Did they miss class the day their teacher taught about Freedom of Speech?

Aargh!

 

[loseyourname]

I continue to go back and forth on whether this is the most corrupt administration or the most incompetent, but it's probably both.

Harding administration on both counts. I have to admit it sort of bothers me a bit when people call Bush the "worst president this country has ever had." Not because I'm any kind of Bush supporter at this point, but the lack of historical perspective irks me. Doesn't anyone remember Andrew Jackson? Not only did he murder a man in an illegal duel, but he is the only president to ever directly disobey a Supreme Court ruling. He also perpetrated the forced removal of the last sovereign Indian nation (which was the action ruled illegal by the Supreme Court) to live on its own land, because gold had been found, which resulted in the death of nearly half the tribe. Thankfully, those who would become my ancestors made it to Texas and survived, otherwise I might not be here to torment all of you.

Anyway, Bush hasn't changed my political views one bit. My views have changed over the years, but that is only because I've gotten older and gained some amount of perspective. I've never particularly liked political parties, but I still don't have any problem with Republicans any more than with Democrats. There are Republicans that I like very much (Giuliani and Arnold) and Democrats that I like very much (Robert Byrd). I still prefer local autonomy and as little government as possible, non-expansionist foreign policy, and I still get irked by the way hyperbole and rhetoric take over political discussions.

About the only relatively major change of position that I've gone through since 2000 was switching over to the pro-life side of the abortion debate. I don't consider that a political issue, however. I've come to my conclusions regarding this matter as a student of philosophy who has gone over it many times in ethics classes, as a simple matter of the strength of respective arguments which I get the feeling most people with strong opinions on abortion aren't even aware of. I've also grown very weary of gerrymandering, changed my mind about deregulation of energy service, become an advocate of more closed borders, school vouchers, and have eased up a bit on the utter hostility I used to show toward all forms of religion. One thing that hasn't changed is that I'm still far more concerned and involved in local politics than in national or international.

Anyway . . .

 

[Astronuc]

My political views have been fairly constant for 40+ years. My father studied history, international affairs and political science, so had an influence to study and analyze politics and the ways of the world on many levels. And I know enough politicians at the local, state and national level to know what is said in public is sometimes different from what is said in private.

Government is supposed to serve ALL the people, not itself, and not a limited number who wield considerable economic power, or contribute huge amounts of money to political campaigns.

I am mostly troubled these days by statements like "No matter what your ideals are, our sons and daughters are fighting for our freedom" and "Our troops are over there fighting for our rights". That is simply not the case, and it is disturbing that people, who should be rational and well informed, instead seem to have swallowed propaganda (partisan rhetoric) hook, line and sinker.

I think Kinky Friedman ( http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/ ) would be a great governor and public servant. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/19/sunday/main788935.shtml

I would have to agree with loseyourname regarding Harding and Jackson, but the parallels between the Harding and Bush administration are great, and IMO, Bush is up there with Harding.

I would love to see Republicans like Alan Simpson, John Danforth, Warren Rudman and even Fred Thompson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Thompson ) back in office, as well as Democrats like the late Paul Tsongas. Rudman and Tsongas cofounded the Concord Coalition - http://www.concordcoalition.org/

One of my concerns is that Clinton and other Democrats are trying to be more Republicans in terms of raising money and serving monied interests rather than the people and the general welfare.

I take pretty seriously the following statement "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. I am not sure the Reagan or Bush could recite this from memory." http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/preamble/ - notice which nouns are capitalized and which are not - particularly "defence", "Justice", "Tranquility", "Welfare" and "Liberty".

Justice for me means seeking the Truth and acting fairly and impartially.

also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution

And Bush doesn't read, and he is apparently proud of that fact.

 

[pattylou]

god help us if Hillary gets elected. Oh, one thing to add, I wish McCain became president :(

Moose: Please provide specifics: What specific fear do you have from Hilary as a president? What will be lost? How will our country be damaged?

McCain: Bush/Rove ran a smear campaign against him in the 2000 primaries, and if you look at certain primaries (I forget which - one on the East Coast) vote tampering looks likely.

Bush is a liar and a crook, and has been stealing elections and lying about his opponents (political and otherwise) all along.

It has taken the worst natural disaster in our country's history to make him change his course, and only slightly at that.

So when you say you don't despise Bush, I have to wonder if you've been following along? (I wouldn't have been, in my late teens.)

 

[pattylou]

As to Ivan's question:

The results of this residency have made me pay attention to what's going on, and that's a good thing. I have always voted, and generally for democrats.

I have less trust on "the system" and I have wondered how far the corruption extends. I do think there are politicians with integrity. I am heartened by the Mayoral agreement to curb emissions in line with Kyoto http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/mayor/climate/ and other signs of opposition and prioritizing something other than money.

The bleaker side: I tend to view anyone who claims to be christian differently now. I don't associate with the majority of people I know who voted for Bush. I am dismayed at how the press switches from one hot topic to the next without finishing the one just covered... and I have lost faith in the press in general.

I used to believe that the world would take care of itself and I just needed to be good to the people around me. I still hold that idea in theory, and I try to be good to the people around me, but I have become more outspoken towards the people in the world that do not seem to be moving the world in what I consider a good direction. In other words, I have less faith that the world will take care of itself, I have less faith that everything "will be alright in the end."

I'm a hell of a lot angrier.

 

[motai]

We are in Iraq fighting for OUR freedom? For OUR rights? How so? We need to stand united (i.e., we need to jump off a cliff along with a moron leading the charge?). Arrest the traitors? Did they miss class the day their teacher taught about Freedom of Speech?

It seems like, from that article above, that those people are probably the type of people who would support America would it ever turn into a totalitarian regime. Especially the quote "Arrest the traitors," that was completely unbased and is reminiscent of something that Josef Stalin would say.

As Astronuc said earlier, I still do not see how this current war is for our rights; for the vast majority of the American people, what rights are being protected? Suppose that we didn't engage in this war, what rights did we have that might have been lost?

If anything, it appears that due to homeland security and all, our rights have been infringed on to the point where law and order takes precedence over basic human liberties (quite ironic considering that law and order in America is supposed to protect these liberties ).

Surely anyone who has even taken a rudimentary course in government and politics can see past the claims that some people make.

 

[2CentsWorth]

I would have to agree with loseyourname regarding Harding and Jackson, but the parallels between the Harding and Bush administration are great, and IMO, Bush is up there with Harding.

Ditto on this.

However the affect of an action is just as important to me if not more. Returning to the popular comparison of Clinton going through the impeachment process for lying, the lie did not result in the high cost of lives and to the detriment of economic well being for Americans as the war in Iraq has. The Iraq war alone is a very serious deed that should have resulted in impeachment. And when all the other questionable actions (destruction of democracy via controlled media, loss of liberties, etc.) are added to this, I say Bush is the worst president thus far in US history.

Bush certainly is not going to go down in history as the best president--as many of his supporters have claimed. In fact, history tends to cast an even poorer light on presidents in later years as more information is revealed. Just look at the negative things brought out later about JFK, FDR, etc.

I agree with the OP and others about the divisiveness. The anger has driven a wedge between people that should be of serious concern. People say politics has always been like this, but I think Bush and Rove have taken things to an all time low. While most Americans are intelligent enough to see through the propaganda, it has been shocking to see how many do not. We need to find ways to reunite our country, and education is probably the best place to start.

BTW pattylou, I agree about the media. What's the update on Rove for example? And the few reliable sources of information such as PBS have been under attack. Since Bush became president, our country has been going down the toilet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ditto for me. No one person can do anything to affect my views. My views come from me.

It doesn't surprise me that nothing would change your views.

 

[Astronuc]

No, Ivan - Russ is playing hard to get.

 

[Smurf]

He hasn't affected my views in any way...I hate politicans and I hate government...that has not changed in any way.

Ditto for me. No one person can do anything to affect my views. My views come from me.

pfft, and you called me the "individualist"

 

[ron damon]

hmm... I think Bush made me abandon the notion that barbarian peoples can be civilized from outside. Also, I wouldn't vote for one of them "moderate conservatives" again just because he/she runs opposite a looney Leftist. More importantly, his presidency illustrates the limits of authority and government, and the need to evolve into more autonomous, independent, and nimble forms of citizens' associations. Lastly, and most illuminating for the reader of history, it allows one to experience first-hand how a large number of people can be consumed by blind and irrational hatred.

 

[Smurf]

Lastly, and most illuminating for the reader of history, it allows one to experience first-hand how a large number of people can be consumed by blind and irrational hatred.

Not to mention that that can be utilized to make them think other cultures are "Barbarian" and "Uncivilized".

 

[Informal Logic]

My views come from me.

Consider the source.

hmm... I think Bush made me abandon the notion that barbarian peoples can be civilized from outside.

I will settle for this irrational hatred in exchange for neocon demise.

Also, I wouldn't vote for one of them "moderate conservatives" again just because he/she runs opposite a looney Leftist.

Ross Perot was a Leftist?

More importantly, his presidency illustrates the limits of authority and government, and the need to evolve into more autonomous, independent, and nimble forms of citizens' associations.

Thank goodness grass root organizations (Common Cause, NARAL, MoveOn, ACLU, etc.) have provided checks and balances when our congress and media have failed so miserably to do so.

 

[ron damon]

Not to mention that that can be utilized to make them think other cultures are "Barbarian" and "Uncivilized".

If it needs to be debated whether peoples that use suicide bombers to kill children gathered to obtain candy, detonate bombs every friggin' day aimed at killing the greatest possible number of civilians at random, http://www.compfused.com/directlink/903/, are barbarians then what's left to say? I mean, what atrocity have they not turned into a mass industry?

 

[Informal Logic]

If it needs to be debated whether peoples that use suicide bombers to kill children gathered to obtain candy, detonate bombs every friggin' day aimed at killing the greatest possible number of civilians at random, http://www.compfused.com/directlink/903/, are barbarians then what's left to say? I mean, what atrocity have they not turned into a mass industry?

Have you seen statistics for crime in the US, including child abuse, molestation, and porn? What does that say about our society?

 

[Smurf]

If it needs to be debated whether peoples that use suicide bombers to kill children gathered to obtain candy, detonate bombs every friggin' day aimed at killing the greatest possible number of civilians at random, http://www.compfused.com/directlink/903/, are barbarians then what's left to say?

The usage of the word 'people' to start.

I mean, what atrocity have they not turned into a mass industry?

I don't want to get into it, but there is a list.

 

[ron damon]

Have you seen statistics for crime in the US, including child abuse, molestation, and porn? What does that say about our society?

But in our civilization those are faults to be denounced; what they do is seen as acts of virtue to be celebrated.

 

[Smurf]

But in our civilization those are faults to be denounced; what they do is seen as acts of virtue to be celebrated.

The accuracy that your "barbarian" cultures celebrate such things for two. And wether it matters or not if a society denounces their crimes as long as they're still committing them for three.

 

[EL]

Ditto for me. No one person can do anything to affect my views. My views come from me.

Yeah.

 

[ron damon]

The accuracy that your "barbarian" cultures celebrate such things for two.

Have you seen Bin Laden's or Hamas's "approval ratings" in the Muslim world?

And wether it matters or not if a society denounces their crimes as long as they're still committing them for three.

If perfectibility is the standard for civilization...

 

[MaxS]

If it needs to be debated whether peoples that use suicide bombers to kill children gathered to obtain candy, detonate bombs every friggin' day aimed at killing the greatest possible number of civilians at random, http://www.compfused.com/directlink/903/, are barbarians then what's left to say? I mean, what atrocity have they not turned into a mass industry?

I gaurantee you would see the same outcome had the roles been reversed.

 

[Smurf]

Have you seen Bin Laden's or Hamas's "approval ratings" in the Muslim world?

The usage of the term "Muslim world" for four. The meaning (and accuracy) of said "Approval ratings" for five.

If perfectibility is the standard for civilization...

Wherever that came from...

 

[MaxS]

Hey listen, just some advice:

You guys aren't having a conversation in person, you're posting comments on a forum for people to read.

It would be reallty helpful (at least for me) if you didnt reply in sentence fragments -- makes it kind of hard to follow along lol.

 

[Smurf]

It would be reallty helpful (at least for me) if you didnt reply in sentence fragments -- makes it kind of hard to follow along lol.

Pfft, I think I'm done here anyways, Ron has revealed his true colors (interesting analogy, don't you think?)

 

[ron damon]

I gaurantee you would see the same outcome had the roles been reversed.

interesting

 

[ron damon]

Ron has revealed his true colors

which are?

 

[MaxS]

interesting

By the way I'm not necessarily suggesting YOU OR I (as we are right now, and not influenced by the pressures of an occupation) would be the ones responsible for committing such atrocities.

What I am guaranteeing is that there WILL be a segment of the population that resorts to such measures, especially after being influenced by generations of propaganda (which is incidentally the reason we currently have troops fighting in Iraq for "our freedom").

 

[Smurf]

(which is incidentally the reason we currently have troops fighting in Iraq for "our freedom").

and why we have always (and still do) had people who will think someone else is to be considered a "barbarian".

 

[ron damon]

and why we have always (and still do) had people who will think someone else is to be considered a "barbarian".

so there is no such thing as?

btw, I'm awaiting your answer to my previous question

 

[Smurf]

btw, I'm awaiting your answer to my previous question

Red, white and blue

 

[ron damon]

By the way I'm not necessarily suggesting YOU OR I (as we are right now, and not influenced by the pressures of an occupation) would be the ones responsible for committing such atrocities.

What I am guaranteeing is that there WILL be a segment of the population that resorts to such measures, especially after being influenced by generations of propaganda (which is incidentally the reason we currently have troops fighting in Iraq for "our freedom").

I don't think cultures, and the actions they allow and give reality to, are that interchangeable. Meanings can be worlds apart, even though externally its corresponding actions can be seen as kindred.

 

[MaxS]

Some folks are born
made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, whit and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
they point the cannon right at you.

It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no senator's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.

Some folks are born
silver spoon in hand,
Lord don't they help themselves.
But when the tax man comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale.

It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.

Some folks inherit
star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war.
And when you ask them,
"How much should we give?"
They only answer "More! More! More!"

It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no military son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.

It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no Fortunate Son.


----------------

Absolutely boggles the mind that people still play this song at Republican rallies, thinking it is pro-establishment. LOL.

 

[MaxS]

I don't think cultures, and the actions they allow and give reality to, are that interchangeable. Meanings can be worlds apart, even though externally its corresponding actions can be seen as kindred.

Step outside your prejudice PLEASE.

Cultures are ABSOLUTELY that interchangable. There are no barbarians. There are no savages. There are no RACES. THERE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

All human beings are capable of horrible atrocities if driven to commit them, whether it be by religious fervor, nationalistic zeal, or some other cause.

 

[pattylou]

I think I'm falling in love again.

 

[ron damon]

Red, white and blue

very cute ..

 

[Smurf]

I think I'm falling in love again.

I think I hear a GD thread rushing up...

 

[ron damon]

THERE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

what is a human being without his/her mind? how can one conceive of mind separate from culture?

 

[MaxS]

What do I need to spell everything out for you now?

All human beings are imbued with the same capacity for evil. How hard is that for you to grasp. There are plenty of maniacs in america right now that don't see anything wrong with INVADING A SOVEREIGN NATION AND BOMBING CITIES REGARDLESS OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES!

Would you not call these acts by their proper names? As atrocities?

 

[Smurf]

Would you not call these acts by their proper names? As atrocities?

Of course not, they're done by his culture. His culture, by inference, can't be barbarians. Only barbarians commit atrocities.

 

[ron damon]

Would you not call these acts by their proper names? As atrocities?

Are cars an "atrocity" because more people die as a result of them than in all modern wars combined?

I know I'm setting myself up for some shrill remarks here, but if you creatively think about it, you'll find some interesting conclusions hiding in the above comparison.

 

[MaxS]

Are cars an "atrocity" because more people die as a result of them than in all modern wars combined?

I know I'm setting myself up for some shrill remarks here, but if you creatively think about it, you'll find some interesting conclusions hiding in the above comparison.

Holy ****, this is your justification?

Because people die in car accidents, its ok to bomb civilians?

Oh you want me to think about this "creatively" do you? Sure, I'm certain we can find all sorts of "creative" ways to justify THE INTENTIONAL MASS MURDER OF CIVILIANS IN WAR!

 

[MaxS]

FFS this isn't some kind of PR focus group where we try to spin war-time atrocities into acceptable casualties, you sick ****.