How is SR applied to circular motion?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Special Relativity (SR) to circular motion, particularly in contexts involving gravitational forces, such as satellites orbiting Earth and particles in accelerators like the LHC. Participants explore the implications of acceleration and reference frames in these scenarios, questioning the compatibility of SR with gravitational effects and the nature of inertial versus non-inertial frames.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how SR can apply to a satellite in circular motion around Earth, noting that the satellite experiences centripetal acceleration due to gravity, which complicates the use of SR.
  • Another participant asserts that SR can handle accelerating objects and that it is possible to work in non-inertial frames, although it is generally easier in inertial frames.
  • Some participants argue that circular motion involving gravity requires General Relativity, suggesting that combining SR with Newtonian gravity is inconsistent.
  • There is a discussion about using Rindler coordinates and radar coordinates to describe non-inertial frames, with references to specific papers for further reading.
  • A later reply suggests that in the context of the LHC, where particles are accelerated close to the speed of light, SR can be used to predict time dilation based on the particle's speed in an inertial frame.
  • Another participant emphasizes that in relativity, a satellite in free fall does not experience proper acceleration, which distinguishes it from cases involving non-gravitational forces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of SR to circular motion influenced by gravity. While some argue that SR can be applied in certain contexts, others maintain that gravitational effects necessitate the use of General Relativity, leading to an unresolved debate on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of acceleration in relativity versus Newtonian mechanics, and the unresolved nature of how to reconcile circular motion with gravitational influences when applying SR.

  • #31
sweet springs said:
The author seems to believe Lorentz contraction is must. But sometimes a kind of "Lorentz extension" take place in rotation system.
At the end of page 9, the paper says:
"Now, as in Section 2, assume that the rotating ring is a series of independent short rods, uniformly distributed along the gutter. Each rod is relativistically contracted, but the ring is not. This means that the distances between the neighboring ends of the neighboring rods are larger than those for a nonrotating ring, so the proper length of the ring is also larger than that of a nonrotating ring. This is concluded also in [2]. This situation mimics a more realistic ring made of elastic material, where atoms play the role of short rigid rods. Owing to the rotation the distances between neighboring atoms increase, so there are tensile stresses in the material."
This quote shows that "Lorentz extension" is included.
 
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  • #32
Thanks for your suggestion. I agree him on this point.
Demystifier said:
This situation mimics a more realistic ring made of elastic material, where atoms play the role of short rigid rods. Owing to the rotation the distances between neighboring atoms increase, so there are tensile stresses in the material."
More ideal case is ring made of incompressible fluid rotating with speed u through the gutter with no friction. Depth or width of fluid from the gutter r outward side would become shallower or narrower as the speed u increases. Or metal ring melted by heat should congeal in new rotating environment. No ##\phi##-stress inside the metal but get compressed when it stops. Best.
 
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  • #33
Demystifier said:
At the end of page 9, the paper says:
"Now, as in Section 2, assume that the rotating ring is a series of independent short rods, uniformly distributed along the gutter. Each rod is relativistically contracted, but the ring is not. This means that the distances between the neighboring ends of the neighboring rods are larger than those for a nonrotating ring, so the proper length of the ring is also larger than that of a nonrotating ring. This is concluded also in [2]. This situation mimics a more realistic ring made of elastic material, where atoms play the role of short rigid rods. Owing to the rotation the distances between neighboring atoms increase, so there are tensile stresses in the material."
This quote shows that "Lorentz extension" is included.
You also noted in your paper that this is equivalent to linear cases, which I thought was a key observation. In my words, you have a rolled up version of Bell spaceship paradox. Because the circumference is constrained by the gutter to be the same as in the inertial frame, the local stretching increases without bound as rim speed approaches c. Just like a string constrained to maintain a fixed length in an inertial frame as it accelerates to c experiences unbounded local stretch.
 
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  • #34
PAllen said:
You also noted in your paper that this is equivalent to linear cases, which I thought was a key observation. In my words, you have a rolled up version of Bell spaceship paradox. Because the circumference is constrained by the gutter to be the same as in the inertial frame, the local stretching increases without bound as rim speed approaches c. Just like a string constrained to maintain a fixed lenegth in an inertial frame as it accelerates to c experiences unbounded local stretch.
Yes, exactly!
 

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