How observation leads to wavefunction collapse?

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In the discussion about wavefunction collapse and observation, participants explore the implications of the double slit experiment, particularly how a photon interacting with an electron affects the interference pattern. It is clarified that a single electron does not create an interference pattern; rather, a large number of electrons produce a distribution that resembles one due to quantum mechanics predicting probabilities. The conversation delves into the nature of light and electrons, questioning how photons can cause wavefunction collapse and what constitutes observation in quantum mechanics. Participants express frustration over the dual nature of matter and the lack of clear explanations for these phenomena. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the complexities of understanding quantum behavior and the ongoing quest for clarity in these foundational concepts.
  • #331
Demystifier said:
Negative j^0 occurs when the wave function is a SUPERPOSITION of at least two different frequencies. For a simple example, see, e.g., Eq. (53) in
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-th/0202204
and compare it with the nonrelativistic analog, Eq. (223).
The equations above are written in the language of QFT, but essentially the same results are obtained with first-quantized wave functions. Just take a superposition of two different frequencies and do it by yourself to convince yourself that the right-hand side of Eq. (53) will emerge.

Well, but a superposition of at least two different frequencies (in time)
does not satisfy the interaction free Klein Gordon or Dirac equation. Regards, Hans
 
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  • #332
Hans de Vries said:
Well, but a superposition of at least two different frequencies (in time)
does not satisfy the interaction free Klein Gordon or Dirac equation.
Yes it does. Both Klein-Gordon and Dirac equations are linear, so a superposition of solutions is also a solution. To avoid misunderstanding, I mean a superposition of wave functions that have different frequencies.
 
  • #333
Demystifier said:
Yes it does. Both Klein-Gordon and Dirac equations are linear, so a superposition of solutions is also a solution.

They have to have equal m though.

Demystifier said:
To avoid misunderstanding, I mean a superposition of wave functions that have different frequencies.
Racing through the calculations I get something proportional to:

(\omega_1+\omega_2)\ (1 + \cos(\omega_1-\omega_2) )

which stays positive. It's almost equal to your equation (53). I'll have to
check this further.Regards, Hans
 
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  • #334
Hans de Vries said:
I'll have to check this further.

I still get the non-negative result:

j_0\ =\ \frac{i\hbar}{2m}\left[ \psi^*\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t} - \frac{\partial \psi^*}{\partial t}\psi \right]



In simplified notation with frequencies v and w:

(e^v + e^w)^*(ve^v+we^w) \ \ \ +\ \ \ (e^v + e^w)(ve^v+we^w)^*\ \ \ =

(e^{-v} + e^{-w})(ve^v+we^w) \ \ \ +\ \ \ (e^v + e^w)(ve^{-v}+we^{-w})\ \ \ =

v + w + ve^{v-w} + we^{-(v-w)}\ \ \ + \ \ \ v + w + ve^{-(v-w)} + we^{v-w}\ \ \ =

2(v+w) \ \ \ + \ 2v\cos(v-w)\ \ + \ \ 2w\cos(v-w)\ \ \ =

2(v+w) (1 + cos(v-w))



So the full end result would be:

j_0\ =\ \frac{(E_1+E_2)\hbar}{m}\ \left( 1\ +\ \cos((E_1-E_2)t/\hbar) \right)


Regards, Hans
 
  • #335
Hans, you missed the correct normalization factor of wave functions, which also depends on frequency. See Eq. (41) and (42).
 
  • #336
Demystifier said:
Hans, you missed the correct normalization factor of wave functions, which also depends on frequency. See Eq. (41) and (42).

This then gives your equation (53). Hmmm, this also means positive charge
density in a superposition of negative charge states...

I did encounter a problem with superpositions earlier. The point is that
the 4-current and the 4-momentum behave the same for single states
but differently for a superposition.

Take a superposition of two states with opposite speed:

e^{+ipx} + e^{-ipx}

Now the current density is zero but for the momentum one must take |p|
to get E right. This is somehow logical since everything is moving with
some speed v albeit in different directions, so one could expect E to
increase accordingly, even though the total momentum of the super-
position is zero.

Assuming that a wavefunction transforms \phi_\mu(x)\rightarrow \phi(\Lambda x)[/itex] then j_\muhas<br /> to transform like a 4-vector <u>momentum</u> to correct for the Lorentz<br /> contraction.<br /> <br /> Now, the 4-vector current and the 4-vector momentum do not behave <br /> the same anymore for a superposition of states.<br /> <br /> Given the fact that the different states all have different speeds makes me<br /> doubt that we can even Lorentz transform a superposition as a whole.<br /> If the states have speeds +v and -v and one boost by v then one state<br /> gets v=0 and the other 2v (for small v)<br /> <br /> Trying to figure things out now along this direction...Regards, Hans
 
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  • #337
Demystifier said:
Still, there is a problem I see. It seems that you cannot generalize it to curved spacetime, because then the measure d^3x should be multiplied by an x-dependent quantity, so it is not clear that you will obtain delta-functions. On the other hand, the standard Klein-Gordon scalar product has a natural covariant generalization in curved spacetime.

This doesn't seem to be a valid argument. It presumes that we know how the quantum theory of gravity will look like (curved spacetime and all that). But, as you well know, there is no consensus about that.

Eugene.
 
  • #338
Hans de Vries said:
This then gives your equation (53). Hmmm, this also means positive charge
density in a superposition of negative charge states...

I did encounter a problem with superpositions earlier. The point is that
the 4-current and the 4-momentum behave the same for single states
but differently for a superposition.

Take a superposition of two states with opposite speed:

e^{+ipx} + e^{-ipx}

Now the current density is zero but for the momentum one must take |p|
to get E right. This is somehow logical since everything is moving with
some speed v albeit in different directions, so one could expect E to
increase accordingly, even though the total momentum of the super-
position is zero.

Assuming that a wavefunction transforms \phi_\mu(x)\rightarrow \phi(\Lambda x)[/itex] then j_\muhas<br /> to transform like a 4-vector <u>momentum</u> to correct for the Lorentz<br /> contraction.<br /> <br /> Now, the 4-vector current and the 4-vector momentum do not behave <br /> the same anymore for a superposition of states.<br /> <br /> Given the fact that the different states all have different speeds makes me<br /> doubt that we can even Lorentz transform a superposition as a whole.<br /> If the states have speeds +v and -v and one boost by v then one state<br /> gets v=0 and the other 2v (for small v)<br /> <br /> Trying to figure things out now along this direction...<br />
<br /> Concerning your first remark, note that the particle current can be introduced even for neutral particles (see again my paper). Therefore, the negative j_0 should NOT be interpreted as a negative charge density.<br /> <br /> Concerning your puzzle about current and velocity, recall that velocity is UNCERTAIN in a superposition. Therefore, I am not sure that it makes sense to talk about the Lorentz transformation of velocity. Note also that velocity is not uncertain in the Bohmian interpretation, in which the velocity is identified with the current at the point at which the pointlike particle is.
 
  • #339
gptejms said:
I've read the two posts you have referred to---interesting! You say in your post #287 'defining time evolution of a wave function with relativistic Shrodinger's equation is equivalent to defining it with the Klein-Gordon equation and demanding only positive frequency solutions to be accepted.' Can you prove this statement i.e. show that the positive frequency solution of KG equation satisfies the relativistic Schrodinger equation?

What you can show quite easily is that the solutions of the relativistic Shrodinger equation are also solution of the Klein-Gordon equation, with the positive frequency. First show that

<br /> \sqrt{-\nabla^2 + m^2}\big(\sqrt{-\nabla^2 + m^2}\psi(x)\big) = \big(-\nabla^2 + m^2\big)\psi(x)<br />

This is easy to believe, but you can also calculate it starting with an explicit position representation definition

<br /> \sqrt{-\nabla^2 + m^2}\psi(x) := \int\frac{d^3x&#039;\;d^3p}{(2\pi)^3}\psi(x&#039;)\sqrt{|p|^2+m^2}e^{ip\cdot(x-x&#039;)}<br />

Take a time derivative of the both sides of the Shrodinger equation, substitute the original Shrodinger equation on the right hand side, and you get the Klein-Gordon equation. Checking that the solution is positive frequency, and that it exists in the first place, is not difficult either because we already know how to write down solution of Klein-Gordon equation as linear combinations of the plane waves, and

<br /> \psi(t,x) = \int\frac{d^3p\;d^3x&#039;}{(2\pi)^3} \psi(0,x&#039;)e^{-i(E_p t + p\cdot(x&#039;-x))}<br />

is the only obvious solution candidate. If you substitute it into the relativistic Shrodinger equation, you see it solves it.

hmh... I just realized that the first part of this response is redundant. Well I have now being changing this response so intensely, that I'll let it be like this.
 
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  • #340
jostpuur said:
What you can show quite easily is that the solutions of the relativistic Shrodinger equation are also solution of the Klein-Gordon equation, with the positive frequency.

Yes, your derivation is correct. However, why did you stop at taking the first time derivative of the Schroedinger equation? Why didn't you take 2nd derivative, 3rd derivative, etc? By doing that, you would obtain an infinite number of equations that are 3rd order in t, 4th order in t, etc. Can you say that all these equations are equivalent to the original Schroedinger equation? Apparently, not. The reason is that all these equations do not allow you to predict wavefunction at time t>0 if you know the wavefunction at t=0. Only the original Schroedinger equation can do that, because it is of the first-order in t. Is this an important distinction? I think, yes. Because in quantum mechanics the wavefunction (not wavefunction + its time derivatives, but the wavefunction alone) is supposed to provide a complete description of the state. Therefore, the wavefunction alone at t=0 must fully determine the time evolution of the state at later times. Therefore, only the first-order Schroedinger equation gives a complete picture of time evolution.

Yes, you can also use the 2nd-order Klein-Gordon equation (or even higher order equations) to describe the time evolution of wavefunctions, but then you need to supplement it with information about time derivatives of the wavefunction at t=0. So, the Klein-Gordon equation doesn't tell the full story.

Eugene.
 
  • #341
meopemuk said:
Yes, your derivation is correct. However, why did you stop at taking the first time derivative of the Schroedinger equation? Why didn't you take 2nd derivative, 3rd derivative, etc? By doing that, you would obtain an infinite number of equations that are 3rd order in t, 4th order in t, etc. Can you say that all these equations are equivalent to the original Schroedinger equation? Apparently, not. The reason is that all these equations do not allow you to predict wavefunction at time t>0 if you know the wavefunction at t=0. Only the original Schroedinger equation can do that, because it is of the first-order in t. Is this an important distinction? I think, yes. Because in quantum mechanics the wavefunction (not wavefunction + its time derivatives, but the wavefunction alone) is supposed to provide a complete description of the state. Therefore, the wavefunction alone at t=0 must fully determine the time evolution of the state at later times. Therefore, only the first-order Schroedinger equation gives a complete picture of time evolution.

Yes, you can also use the 2nd-order Klein-Gordon equation (or even higher order equations) to describe the time evolution of wavefunctions, but then you need to supplement it with information about time derivatives of the wavefunction at t=0. So, the Klein-Gordon equation doesn't tell the full story.

Eugene.

I mentioned that the Klein-Gordon equation must be equipped with the additional information, that only positive frequency solutions are considered. Then it defines unique time evolution.

I admit that the Shrodinger equation seems to be more fundamental source of the time evolution, but its connection to the Klein-Gordon equation should not be ignored. Noting that the solutions of Shrodinger equation are also solutions of Klein-Gordon equation makes it easier to understand what kind of solutions they are. After this you also understand better where the Klein-Gordon equation is coming from.
 
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  • #342
Mr Virtual said:
Hi all

I know I raised a similar question in the thread "Wave particle duality", but it is already so full of many other questions, that I'd not be able to discuss this topic fully there.

So, in the double slit experiment, if a photon observes an electron, the interference pattern vanishes. Why is this so? What does a photon do to an electron? Also, can anybody explain to me as to how a single electron creates an interference pattern in reality? I am completely at sea as far as understanding this phenomenon is concerned. I know that in theory we have wavefunctions, but how can all the paths that can be followed by the electron, consist of one in which it passes through both the slits?

thanks
Mr Virtual

(I didn't see my favorite way to explain this to beginning students...)

If you do a double slit experiment with electrons and you use photons to observe through which slit they go, then you don't get an interference pattern. If you don't observe the electrons then the wavefunction is like:

|psi_1> + |psi_2>

were |psi_i> is the contribution to the wavefunction from slit i. But if the electron interacts with photons then you get a superposition like:

|psi_1>| ph_1> + |psi_2>| ph_2>

where |ph_i> is the wave function for the photon in case the electron moves through slit i. Suppose we don't observe the photon, and we want to find the probability that the electron will end up at some postion on the screen behind the two slits. The probability of finding a system in som state is given by the absolute value squared of the inner product with that state. So, in case of no interaction wit photons you get for the probability:

|<x|psi_1> + <x|psi_2>|^2 =

|psi_1(x) + psi_2(x)|^2

And this thus contans interference terms. In the case of interaction with photons you have to take the inner product with the state corresponding to the photon being in state |x> and the photon being in some state |ph>, take the absolute value square and sum over a complete set of photon states |ph>:

sum over |ph> of:

|<x|psi_1><ph| ph_1> + <x|psi_2><ph| ph_2>|^2


Now let's look at the interference term:

Sum over |ph> of:

2 Re[psi_1(x)psi_2-star(x) <ph_2| ph><ph| ph_1> ] =

2 Re[psi_1(x)psi_2-star(x) <ph_2|ph_1> ]

So, the interference term is proportional to the overlap of the photon wave functions |ph_1> and |ph_2>. If there is no overlap then the photon "knows for sure" through which slit the electron went :smile:
 
  • #343
jostpuur said:
Take a time derivative of the both sides of the Shrodinger equation, substitute the original Shrodinger equation on the right hand side, and you get the Klein-Gordon equation. Checking that the solution is positive frequency, and that it exists in the first place, is not difficult either because we already know how to write down solution of Klein-Gordon equation as linear combinations of the plane waves, and

<br /> \psi(t,x) = \int\frac{d^3p\;d^3x&#039;}{(2\pi)^3} \psi(0,x&#039;)e^{-i(E_p t + p\cdot(x&#039;-x))}<br />

is the only obvious solution candidate. If you substitute it into the relativistic Shrodinger equation, you see it solves it.
What I understand of positive and negative frequency solutions is this:

If
f(t)=\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}f(\omega)e^{-\iota \omega t}d\omega,
then if f(t) is real it can be written as

f(t)=\int_{0}^{\infty}f^{*}(\omega)e^{\iota \omega t}d\omega +<br /> \int_{0}^{\infty}f(\omega)e^{-\iota \omega t}d\omega,

where f^{*}(\omega)=f(-\omega)
The first term on RHS may be called the negative frequency term and the second the positive frequency term.Now in your posts you don't seem to be doing this.Your range of integration seems to be from -infinity to infinity always--there would be a problem if you were to show your results with the above definition.I don't know what limits the (authors of) books have in mind when they talk of +ve and -ve freq. terms(but I guess they take your definition).
 
  • #344
gptejms said:
What I understand of positive and negative frequency solutions is this:

If
f(t)=\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}f(\omega)e^{-\iota \omega t}d\omega,
then if f(t) is real it can be written as

f(t)=\int_{0}^{\infty}f^{*}(\omega)e^{\iota \omega t}d\omega +<br /> \int_{0}^{\infty}f(\omega)e^{-\iota \omega t}d\omega,

where f^{*}(\omega)=f(-\omega)
The first term on RHS may be called the negative frequency term and the second the positive frequency term.Now in your posts you don't seem to be doing this.Your range of integration seems to be from -infinity to infinity always--there would be a problem if you were to show your results with the above definition.I don't know what limits the (authors of) books have in mind when they talk of +ve and -ve freq. terms(but I guess they take your definition).

The plane wave solutions of Klein-Gordon equations are

e^{-i(E_p t-p\cdot x)} (positive frequency)

and

e^{i(E_p t + p\cdot x)} (negative frequency)

(Actually I'm not sure about the sign convention for the term p\cdot x here. Perhaps there is a minus sign. It isn't important anyway, it leads only into a redefinition of \phi^-_p)

An arbitrary wave packet may be written as superposition of these like this

<br /> \phi(t,x) = \int\frac{d^3p}{(2\pi)^3} \Big( \phi^+_p e^{-iE_p t} + \phi^-_p e^{iE_p t}\Big) e^{ip\cdot x}<br />

Where the p is integrated over the space \mathbb{R}^3, and \phi^+_p and \phi^-_p are functions of p (I prefer this notation for Fourier transformations). If we are only interested in the positive frequency solutions, then the wave packet is of form

<br /> \phi(t,x) = \int\frac{d^3p}{(2\pi)^3} \phi^+_p e^{-i(E_p t - p\cdot x)}<br />

Notice that E_p=\sqrt{|p|^2+m^2} is getting only positive values, when p is integrated over the three dimensional real space. At time t=0 this becomes a Fourier transform of the \phi^+_p, so for a desired initial wave packet \phi(0,x) we can substitute an inverse transform

<br /> \phi^+_p = \int d^3x&#039;\; \phi(0,x&#039;) e^{-ip\cdot x&#039;}<br />

and then we get to the solution I wrote earlier.

Trying to write wave packets by integrating over the energy (or frequency) doesn't look very practical, because energy doesn't define the momentum uniquely.
 
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  • #345
jostpuur said:
The plane wave solutions of Klein-Gordon equations are

e^{-i(E_p t-p\cdot x)} (positive frequency)

and

e^{i(E_p t + p\cdot x)} (negative frequency)

(Actually I'm not sure about the sign convention for the term p\cdot x here. Perhaps there is a minus sign. It isn't important anyway, it leads only into a redefinition of \phi^-_p)

There is a minus sign there--otherwise what is the negative frequency here--p is also a (spatial) frequency(though you can correlate the negative (or positive)frequency with the sign of E_p also)

Trying to write wave packets by integrating over the energy (or frequency) doesn't look very practical, because energy doesn't define the momentum uniquely.

I took f to be a function of t and integrated over frequency just to illustrate the point--it could well be a function of x(in which case you'd be dealing with k,the spatial frequency or wavenumber)
 
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  • #346
a strange theory

Hi folks,

I am new to the study of quantum physics, so I humbly state that I am here to learn mostly, however, after reading much about the double-slit experiment and wavefunction, I would like to test a theory, if the wavefunction collapses under observation, could it mean that by observing the phenomenon, we impose time and space perception to it and that is what causes it to collapse? Could this also be a clue to time-travel. I have read other theories about human perception changing time and space, but I wonder if it fits into this experiment. Sorry if it sounds hokey but its just an idea I had and I would love to hear any feedback.

Thanks,
the ghost of schrodingers cat
 
  • #347
As far as I know, physicsists still don't know the real reason for this collapse. This is what I have gathered from all the discussion so far.
As far as your own theory goes, someone well versed in QM maths/theory may answer your question.

regards
Mr V
 
  • #348
Mr Virtual said:
As far as I know, physicsists still don't know the real reason for this collapse. This is what I have gathered from all the discussion so far.
As far as your own theory goes, someone well versed in QM maths/theory may answer your question.

The real reason for the collapse of the wave packet was explained originally by A. Einstein in 1927: our world is 4-dim space-time continuum with the Minkowski metric. However, there are people that deny the validity of special relativity and QM. I leave for your judgment whether they may be considered physicists.

The only way to understand that is:

reilly said:
Mr.Virtual -- If you take a 1st year grad level QM course, or equivalent thereof, you'll find most of your questions answered -- in fact, these questions have been around for almost a century, and very sophisticated answers and arguments abound in the literature.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #349
Is it true that the wave function describes propagation in one direction in time? But if it does describe propagation in time, then it can not give information of both initial and final states at the same time, since it propagated from one to the other in time. So there's no information of the initial state to enable a calculation of probabilities from initial to final states; the final state could have come from many different initial states. In order to determine the probability of going from initial and final states, we have to have the reverse propagation from final to initial state. Then we know both intial and final states enabling a calculation of the probability from initial to final state. Thus the wave function is multiplied by its complex conjugate to cancel out the time dependencies and get information of both initial and final states at the same instant in order to get simultaneous knowledge of both events required to "know" at some instant the probability of going from one to the other. Does this all sound right?
 
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  • #350
Mr Virtual said:
Hi all

I know I raised a similar question in the thread "Wave particle duality", but it is already so full of many other questions, that I'd not be able to discuss this topic fully there.

So, in the double slit experiment, if a photon observes an electron, the interference pattern vanishes. Why is this so? What does a photon do to an electron? Also, can anybody explain to me as to how a single electron creates an interference pattern in reality? I am completely at sea as far as understanding this phenomenon is concerned. I know that in theory we have wavefunctions, but how can all the paths that can be followed by the electron, consist of one in which it passes through both the slits?

thanks
Mr Virtual

I think The Feynman Lecture on Physics (Vol.3), section 3-2 "the two-slit interference pattern" can answer some of your puzzles, and as Feynman said there, "although we don't have the correct mathematical formula for all the factors that go into this calculation, you will see the spirit of it in the following discussion."
 
  • #351
Mike2 said:
Is it true that the wave function describes propagation in one direction in time? But if it does describe propagation in time, then it can not give information of both initial and final states at the same time, since it propagated from one to the other in time. So there's no information of the initial state to enable a calculation of probabilities from initial to final states; the final state could have come from many different initial states. In order to determine the probability of going from initial and final states, we have to have the reverse propagation from final to initial state. Then we know both intial and final states enabling a calculation of the probability from initial to final state. Thus the wave function is multiplied by its complex conjugate to cancel out the time dependencies and get information of both initial and final states at the same instant in order to get simultaneous knowledge of both events required to "know" at some instant the probability of going from one to the other. Does this all sound right?
You might like this:
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0706.4075
 
  • #352
photon probability

The Klein-Gordon current (with some constants)

<br /> (\partial^{\mu} \phi)^* \phi - \phi^* \partial^{\mu} \phi = -2i\textrm{Im}(\phi^*\partial^{\mu}\phi)<br />

vanishes for real field, and thus exists only for complex ones.

In gauge \partial_{\mu} A^{\mu} = 0 the Maxwell's equations are \partial_{\mu}\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}=0, so the electromagnetic potential is a real four component Klein-Gordon field with postulated transformations of a four vector.

What is the probability density for photons? I have one guess: Sum of the Klein-Gordon currents for each component of A^{\nu}, like this

<br /> (\partial^{\mu} A_{\nu})^* A^{\nu} - A^*_{\nu}\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}<br />

But this does not work, because they are real fields, and the current doesn't exist! Or is this wrong kind of wave function for photon? Are they complex in quantum theory?
 
  • #354
Demystifier said:
Jostpuur, you may define the complex wave function of a photon by taking the positive-frequency part of the field. See e.g.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0602024
especially Eqs. (3) and (5).

So the wave function is \psi^{\alpha}\in\mathbb{C}^4? (This was bad notation... I mean (\psi^0,\psi^1,\psi^2,\psi^3)\in\mathbb{C}^4)

And according to the mainstream view (that Hans de Vries has been explaining) it would be incorrect to interpret |\psi^{\alpha}|^2 for each fixed \alpha as the probability density in similar fashion as |\psi_1|^2 and |\psi_2|^2 of a non-relativistic spin-1/2 particle?
 
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  • #355
jostpuur said:
So the wave function is \psi^{\alpha}\in\mathbb{C}^4? (This was bad notation... I mean (\psi^0,\psi^1,\psi^2,\psi^3)\in\mathbb{C}^4)

And according to the mainstream view (that Hans de Vries has been explaining) it would be incorrect to interpret |\psi^{\alpha}|^2 for each fixed \alpha as the probability density in similar fashion as |\psi_1|^2 and |\psi_2|^2 of a non-relativistic spin-1/2 particle?
Yes, it is similar to the spin 1/2 case. You have to perform a sum over all components of the wave function.
 
  • #356
The Onion said:
Ok, here is my 2cents worth, As far as i have understood the following happens:

First of all never consider any particle as a particle, but rather as wave function of multiple possibilities(or locations) of that particle. But also its not the case either because after 'observation' the wave function will collapse into 1 possibility (or location) that is in its wave function, so now the wave doesn't exist but the particle exists at 1 point.

So its very important to realize that all matter isn't just physical, its a wave function at the same time. Its both n none.

So the way i understand it is this:

Imagine an electron's wave function, till now the electron doesn't exist as a particle its just a wave of possibilities. Now it WILL remain that way until something collapses the wave from a set of possibilities to just one possibility and the electron comes to existence at that point.
About this, we think in the same way.
 
  • #357
Mike2 said:
Is it true that the wave function describes propagation in one direction in time? But if it does describe propagation in time, then it can not give information of both initial and final states at the same time, since it propagated from one to the other in time. So there's no information of the initial state to enable a calculation of probabilities from initial to final states; the final state could have come from many different initial states. In order to determine the probability of going from initial and final states, we have to have the reverse propagation from final to initial state. Then we know both intial and final states enabling a calculation of the probability from initial to final state. Thus the wave function is multiplied by its complex conjugate to cancel out the time dependencies and get information of both initial and final states at the same instant in order to get simultaneous knowledge of both events required to "know" at some instant the probability of going from one to the other. Does this all sound right?
So in this view the wave function is not collapsing. Instead the wave function is combined with a wave function in the reverse direction in time in order to calculate a probability of two events separated in time, right?
 
  • #358
Hello all,
well, to start, sorry if i haven't followed all the discussion, so I'm not sure what other points were made since the first page.
i heard more than once that a single electron does not create an interference pattern, what does that mean exactly? in my understanding, the wave associated with this electron does create an interference pattern, but of course, you would have to make lots of measurements of single electrons to visualize that. even so, can't i say that a single electron does create an interference pattern?
 
  • #359
Diego Floor said:
Hello all,
well, to start, sorry if i haven't followed all the discussion, so I'm not sure what other points were made since the first page.
i heard more than once that a single electron does not create an interference pattern, what does that mean exactly? in my understanding, the wave associated with this electron does create an interference pattern, but of course, you would have to make lots of measurements of single electrons to visualize that. even so, can't i say that a single electron does create an interference pattern?

a lot of single electrons will create an interference pattern. But 1 only will position itself in just one of the bands of the interference pattern
 
  • #360
exactly, but then my point is, what happens with photons? isn't the same thing?
 

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