How observation leads to wavefunction collapse?

  • #351
Mike2 said:
Is it true that the wave function describes propagation in one direction in time? But if it does describe propagation in time, then it can not give information of both initial and final states at the same time, since it propagated from one to the other in time. So there's no information of the initial state to enable a calculation of probabilities from initial to final states; the final state could have come from many different initial states. In order to determine the probability of going from initial and final states, we have to have the reverse propagation from final to initial state. Then we know both intial and final states enabling a calculation of the probability from initial to final state. Thus the wave function is multiplied by its complex conjugate to cancel out the time dependencies and get information of both initial and final states at the same instant in order to get simultaneous knowledge of both events required to "know" at some instant the probability of going from one to the other. Does this all sound right?
You might like this:
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0706.4075
 
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  • #352
photon probability

The Klein-Gordon current (with some constants)

<br /> (\partial^{\mu} \phi)^* \phi - \phi^* \partial^{\mu} \phi = -2i\textrm{Im}(\phi^*\partial^{\mu}\phi)<br />

vanishes for real field, and thus exists only for complex ones.

In gauge \partial_{\mu} A^{\mu} = 0 the Maxwell's equations are \partial_{\mu}\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}=0, so the electromagnetic potential is a real four component Klein-Gordon field with postulated transformations of a four vector.

What is the probability density for photons? I have one guess: Sum of the Klein-Gordon currents for each component of A^{\nu}, like this

<br /> (\partial^{\mu} A_{\nu})^* A^{\nu} - A^*_{\nu}\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}<br />

But this does not work, because they are real fields, and the current doesn't exist! Or is this wrong kind of wave function for photon? Are they complex in quantum theory?
 
  • #353
Jostpuur, you may define the complex wave function of a photon by taking the positive-frequency part of the field. See e.g.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0602024
especially Eqs. (3) and (5).
 
  • #354
Demystifier said:
Jostpuur, you may define the complex wave function of a photon by taking the positive-frequency part of the field. See e.g.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0602024
especially Eqs. (3) and (5).

So the wave function is \psi^{\alpha}\in\mathbb{C}^4? (This was bad notation... I mean (\psi^0,\psi^1,\psi^2,\psi^3)\in\mathbb{C}^4)

And according to the mainstream view (that Hans de Vries has been explaining) it would be incorrect to interpret |\psi^{\alpha}|^2 for each fixed \alpha as the probability density in similar fashion as |\psi_1|^2 and |\psi_2|^2 of a non-relativistic spin-1/2 particle?
 
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  • #355
jostpuur said:
So the wave function is \psi^{\alpha}\in\mathbb{C}^4? (This was bad notation... I mean (\psi^0,\psi^1,\psi^2,\psi^3)\in\mathbb{C}^4)

And according to the mainstream view (that Hans de Vries has been explaining) it would be incorrect to interpret |\psi^{\alpha}|^2 for each fixed \alpha as the probability density in similar fashion as |\psi_1|^2 and |\psi_2|^2 of a non-relativistic spin-1/2 particle?
Yes, it is similar to the spin 1/2 case. You have to perform a sum over all components of the wave function.
 
  • #356
The Onion said:
Ok, here is my 2cents worth, As far as i have understood the following happens:

First of all never consider any particle as a particle, but rather as wave function of multiple possibilities(or locations) of that particle. But also its not the case either because after 'observation' the wave function will collapse into 1 possibility (or location) that is in its wave function, so now the wave doesn't exist but the particle exists at 1 point.

So its very important to realize that all matter isn't just physical, its a wave function at the same time. Its both n none.

So the way i understand it is this:

Imagine an electron's wave function, till now the electron doesn't exist as a particle its just a wave of possibilities. Now it WILL remain that way until something collapses the wave from a set of possibilities to just one possibility and the electron comes to existence at that point.
About this, we think in the same way.
 
  • #357
Mike2 said:
Is it true that the wave function describes propagation in one direction in time? But if it does describe propagation in time, then it can not give information of both initial and final states at the same time, since it propagated from one to the other in time. So there's no information of the initial state to enable a calculation of probabilities from initial to final states; the final state could have come from many different initial states. In order to determine the probability of going from initial and final states, we have to have the reverse propagation from final to initial state. Then we know both intial and final states enabling a calculation of the probability from initial to final state. Thus the wave function is multiplied by its complex conjugate to cancel out the time dependencies and get information of both initial and final states at the same instant in order to get simultaneous knowledge of both events required to "know" at some instant the probability of going from one to the other. Does this all sound right?
So in this view the wave function is not collapsing. Instead the wave function is combined with a wave function in the reverse direction in time in order to calculate a probability of two events separated in time, right?
 
  • #358
Hello all,
well, to start, sorry if i haven't followed all the discussion, so I'm not sure what other points were made since the first page.
i heard more than once that a single electron does not create an interference pattern, what does that mean exactly? in my understanding, the wave associated with this electron does create an interference pattern, but of course, you would have to make lots of measurements of single electrons to visualize that. even so, can't i say that a single electron does create an interference pattern?
 
  • #359
Diego Floor said:
Hello all,
well, to start, sorry if i haven't followed all the discussion, so I'm not sure what other points were made since the first page.
i heard more than once that a single electron does not create an interference pattern, what does that mean exactly? in my understanding, the wave associated with this electron does create an interference pattern, but of course, you would have to make lots of measurements of single electrons to visualize that. even so, can't i say that a single electron does create an interference pattern?

a lot of single electrons will create an interference pattern. But 1 only will position itself in just one of the bands of the interference pattern
 
  • #360
exactly, but then my point is, what happens with photons? isn't the same thing?
 
  • #361
sry I am not following.

If you shoot a single electron or photon at the double stil it will interfere with itself true, and it will position itself in ONE of the interference pattern bands, but only in one. So just one particle cannot create an interference pattern on its own, you need to have a lot of single particles for the pattern to build up.
 
  • #362
Thoughts of a total newbie:

When viewing an object, we see different wavelengths of light as colour. When we then use a monochrome camera and take a photo, the photo emerges with the colour spectrum colapsed and simplified.

Where before, we were able to differentiate hue as distinct from light intensity and the x/y location of the pixels in the image, we now cannot. We're left only with intensity and x/y (a black and white image).

This might be an interesting way of looking at the 'collapse' of particles? After all, no real collapse has occurred when taking the photograph. The colour spectrum still exists in reality, and the grass is still green. All that has happened is that the observer (camera) is not equiped to observe the full depth of reality. So the photo it produces is a simplified version of the reality being observed.

Perhaps something along those lines is occurring in the double-slit experiment? We observe, yet we cannot observe an object doing more than one thing at once, just as the camera cannot observe a pixel being both medium intensity AND red. So as the camera colapses the colours and shows just their overall intensity, we collapse all the many probabilities and show just the average of them all?


Right, I'm going to bed. Please bear in mind that the above statement is quite probably wrong.
 
  • #363
Mr Virtual said:
Hi all

I know I raised a similar question in the thread "Wave particle duality", but it is already so full of many other questions, that I'd not be able to discuss this topic fully there.

So, in the double slit experiment, if a photon observes an electron, the interference pattern vanishes. Why is this so? What does a photon do to an electron? Also, can anybody explain to me as to how a single electron creates an interference pattern in reality? I am completely at sea as far as understanding this phenomenon is concerned. I know that in theory we have wavefunctions, but how can all the paths that can be followed by the electron, consist of one in which it passes through both the slits?

thanks
Mr Virtual
"how does observation lead to wavefunction collapse?"

Simple answer: Once you have made an observation, that means you know where the particle is. If you know where the particle is, there is no point in describing its position by a wavefunction (probability). Therefore the wavefunction collapses upon observation.
 
  • #364
scarecrow said:
"how does observation lead to wavefunction collapse?"

Simple answer: Once you have made an observation, that means you know where the particle is. If you know where the particle is, there is no point in describing its position by a wavefunction (probability). Therefore the wavefunction collapses upon observation.

I agree with you 100%. That's the best explanation of the wavefunction collapse I've seen so far.

Eugene.
 
  • #365
meopemuk said:
I agree with you 100%. That's the best explanation of the wavefunction collapse I've seen so far.

Eugene.
Thanks. I thought about this answer before going to bed last night :)
 
  • #366
ok, i can understand that too! (yay)
but to say that isn't the same thing to say that the particle was always there with that position and momentum, we just didin't know that? that is, our theory isn't complete, it gives a probability, but nature is deterministic. so a second measure would give you the same information you already had.
then what happens to that copenhagen interpretation? I've 'heard' there's a proof for it.
i'm merely asking questions here, I'm in no way an expert! total noob.. but not for long i hope! hehe :)
 
  • #367
Diego Floor said:
but nature is deterministic.

How do you know that? I thought that the main lesson of quantum mechanics is that nature is not deterministic.

Eugene.
 
  • #368
meopemuk said:
How do you know that?
I don't. The sentence got a little longer than i expected but, i started by saying: "but to say that isn't the same thing to say..."
so, it's not really my affirmation. it's possible, however, that i missunderstood scarecrow's explanation. then it wouldn't imply determinism.
 
  • #369
what i do know, is that we say the wavefunction collapses because when we make a second measure instantly after the first one, you get the same result.
 
  • #370
Diego Floor said:
what i do know, is that we say the wavefunction collapses because when we make a second measure instantly after the first one, you get the same result.

This is true if both times we measured the same observable, e.g., position. If the first time we measured position and the second time we measured momentum, then the result of this second measurement is, again, unpredictable.

In other words: in quantum mechanics even having (a maximally possible) full and complete knowledge about the prepared state of the system we cannot predict results of measurements of all observables. If you know what the system is doing now, you cannot tell exactly what will happen in the future. That's what I call "indeterminism".

Eugene.
 
  • #371
Diego Floor said:
what i do know, is that we say the wavefunction collapses because when we make a second measure instantly after the first one, you get the same result.
Not necessarily. The only way that will happen is if your physical observable is time-independent.

The reason the wavefunction collapses is because there's no logic behind describing a physical observable (expectation value) by a probability if it already has been observed.

Example: Right now I don't know where the position of an electron is in an atom, but I know a probability density (orbital) in which it should be. Once you somehow can see exactly where it is, it can no longer be in an orbital since the orbital is strictly a probability density. Therefore, the electron which you observed has to be a free electron obeying the laws of classical physics.
 
  • #372
ok! scarecrow's second explanation was as good as the first one, i actually understood them. i was having problem with what was defined as wave function collapse, it was wrong.
so, it has nothing to do with the measure itself (in the way i thought it had, i mean)
 
  • #373
scarecrow said:
Therefore, the electron which you observed has to be a free electron obeying the laws of classical physics.
I'm not quite sure about this statement I have made...

This may be a paradox in which I have no explanation. :bugeye:
 
  • #374
scarecrow said:
"how does observation lead to wavefunction collapse?"

Simple answer: Once you have made an observation, that means you know where the particle is. If you know where the particle is, there is no point in describing its position by a wavefunction (probability). Therefore the wavefunction collapses upon observation.

I agree with this too. This is the most natural explanation if you take on the bayesian interpretation. That is the wavefunction represents the observer information relative to the subject. If the information is updated, so is the wavefunction.

The dynamical equations, like schrödinger equation rather (IMHO) describes the expected evolution of this information in the lack of measurement. Any measurements must clearly interfere with the equations of dynamics.

But if there are some domains where you think the discontinuity bothers you, there is a way out. The normal description is extremely simple. You consider that you make a measurement, and then you know the answer - the questions collapses. But if you add a level of complexity, one can assign a weight to each measurement. For example, suppose you've repeated the supposedly same measurement 100 times, and it is A, then the 101 time you get B - what is more likely, that it is B or that the measurement is not to be trusted? Anyway, if one considers such a scenario the observers wavefunction will acquire a kind of inertia - resistance to revision, that basically makes it more continuous and possibly even imposes bounds on rate of change. This is speculations, but things I'm currently thinking of, and the relative probability offers as it seems many natural resolutions.

/Fredrik
 
  • #375
scarecrow said:
"how does observation lead to wavefunction collapse?"

Simple answer: Once you have made an observation, that means you know where the particle is. If you know where the particle is, there is no point in describing its position by a wavefunction (probability). Therefore the wavefunction collapses upon observation.
Does it mean that the particle possesses some properties that are not described by the wave function? If yes, what are these properties?
 
  • #376
Demystifier said:
Does it mean that the particle possesses some properties that are not described by the wave function? If yes, what are these properties?

Not to speak for scarecrow but some personal comments in response to this - in the context of an extended personal and non-standard interpretation - that it is in a certain sense possible that there are things/propertis yet to be discovered that are currently unknown, and by definition we don't know what this maybe be. One can not predict the future, one can only provide an estimate of the future, based on the past.

The wavefunction by constructions describes exactly, what we think we know. What we don't know, or wether what we think we know may later need revision nonone can possibly know.

The problem may be howto understand how "we know" can be generalized to general non-intelligent systems. I think it can be done and that a systems, or particle internal state, which by definition is not entirely observable from the point of view of the environment, can still encode conditional information.

Unlike a ordinary hidden variable construction, I think the key here is that information is fundamentally relative. One does not assume or speculate about the unknown beyond what can be induced from what is known. In essence I think the proper answer should be sought after in terms of self organisation. But I think not only the particle posistion is subject of self organisation, that also applies to the reference frames, spacetimes and geometries themselves.

/Fredrik
 
  • #377
Addition: What I wrote is inconsistent with the standard QM (unitarity etc) though. Which is why I believe that QM needs revision. The basic interpretation thouhg, still helps even in the standard QM. This way of thinking will most probably introduce gravity phenomenan all by itself, because it's required by consistency!

/Fredrik
 
  • #378
It's difficult to believe that the particles in a particular interaction have information about how probable it is that the interaction will occur. It either happens or it doesn't, right? I think probabilities are only something humans would be interested in. Is it fair to describe the wave function as collapsing when it is only humans who are combining the wave function with its complex conjugate to get a probability? Does the wave function cease to be a wave function simply because we arbitrarily combined it with its conjugate to get a number?
 
  • #379
Gza said:
Wavefunction collapse is a postulate of QM supported by experimentation.

Wave function collapse is what happens when too many angels go dancing on one surfboard to the tune of "Wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen".

Whereas you can ask: given both the everyday observed and experimental evidence, why shouldn't quantum objects be both waves and particles while in motion?
 
  • #380
Mike2 said:
It's difficult to believe that the particles in a particular interaction have information about how probable it is that the interaction will occur. It either happens or it doesn't, right? I think probabilities are only something humans would be interested in.

I disagree, I find it very easy to believe that particles are manifestations of statistical phenomena. It also suggest explanations for the observed complexity and self organisation in nature.

One should I think also not mix up the human language and human descriptions of nature, with nature itself. Of course particles doesn't solve equations, it doesn't think about things... it just "is".

Edit: Still of course, at some some point WE are of course part of nature too, so the distinction between our description and what it desribes are bound to converge/unite at some level. This is allowed in the view I have at least.

However, your points are probably more common in the community, and what I suggest is not yet anything mature. What really beats me is why not more work is done on this compared to all other stuff people work on.

/Fredrik
 
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  • #381
Demystifier said:
Does it mean that the particle possesses some properties that are not described by the wave function? If yes, what are these properties?
I'm not quite sure what your trying to get at here.

In terms of a wavefunction collapse, the particle does not suddenly have different properties or behavior after an observation.

Example: An electron is in some superposition of states a and b. At time t = 0 assume the electron is in state a and at some time later the electron can only be described by a probability density, i.e. the electron has a probability of being in one state or the other. But since it's a probability, the electron can theoretically exist in both states at the same time, e.g. 40% in a and 60% in b.

However, this does not mean the particle is physically in two places at the same time, it is only a mathematical construct to describe what has been shown experimentally.

Once the electron has been observed - at that instant the wavefunction collapses - and the electron is definitely (100% probable) in the place where it has been observed. After the observation, the electron must be described again by the wavefunction since it is not being observed anymore.

This is why there is such a thing in QM called expectation values...what do we expect (on average) to get.
 
  • #382
scarecrow said:
I'm not quite sure what your trying to get at here.
In terms of a wavefunction collapse, the particle does not suddenly have different properties or behavior after an observation.

That is not really correct.
There are plenty of phenomena which involves changing the properties of a system by measuring it; that is the whole idea of state preparation by projective measurements; i.e. you can prepare a quantum system in a state by measuring it in a certain way. This is a standard method in quantum information processing.

Note that these are not "statistical" properties in the classical (ensemble) sense; this method works even you are working with e.g. single ions or qubits.
There are many other examples where (indirectly) observable properties (such as Rabi splitting in cavity-QED) changes simply because you perform a measurement.

In my view many discussions tend to miss a very basic point: Real quantum systems decay whether "an intelligent observer" is looking at them (or measuring them in some other way) or not; simply because real systems are subject to dissipation. Hence, in a sense the "wavefunction collapse" picture gives you the wrong idea of what is going on: A real cat will ALWAYS be EITHER dead OR alíve; simply because the cat is too big to be in a superposition of state (or to be more precise: a system of that size will always decay very quickly since it is impossible to insulate it from external degrees of freedom); whether a human is looking at it or not obviously does not matter
 
  • #383
Fra said:
I disagree, I find it very easy to believe that particles are manifestations of statistical phenomena.
I think this shows the global nature of physics - that one interaction would depende on what many others would do. As you say, objects don't calculate probabilities. They should simply respond to only the properties of the interacting particles alone. It's hard to say that a particle has a property if another reacts to it only sometimes. But if a particle's properties are truly statistical, then this only goes to show that the laws of nature are derived from the most general principles of probabilities themselves.


What really beats me is why not more work is done on this compared to all other stuff people work on.
This would be addressing philosophical issues on the ultimate foundations of nature. That doesn't help design a better oven or car or radio, does it?
 
  • #384
Mike2 said:
I think this shows the global nature of physics - that one interaction would depende on what many others would do. As you say, objects don't calculate probabilities. They should simply respond to only the properties of the interacting particles alone.

Yes, OTOH I guess one can say that humans only respond too, our brains simply respond to input. In a broad sense the difference is mainly a difference in complexity of multiple orders of magnitude. I don't see any problem or contradiction here.

Mike2 said:
if a particle's properties are truly statistical, then this only goes to show that the laws of nature are derived from the most general principles of probabilities themselves.

Yes, in a certain sense I think you are right. In the spirit you did that derivation. However I think there is some missing elements there even though I agree to a certain extent.

The missing part is the coupling, between orders of complexity that is also responsible for evolution (all of it, not just the biological evolution - I see no reason to make a fundamental distinction except at the level of complexity).

"truly statistical" - what exactly is that? To me it's an idealisation that doesn't quite make sense. Apparently or expected statistical or random yes, but "truly"? This is really one of the critical focus points IMO. Unless there is a proper discrimination between truly and apparent, then apparent is all we've got, and i think this distinction really does make a difference.

One can IMO not consider the statistics to be made outside the observer, whatever statistics is made, we only have at hand the information capacity of the observer. This certainly puts limits on things, these limits will most probably (IMHO at least) imply non-trivial relational dynamics.

/Fredrik
 
  • #385
The reason I wrote "statistical phenomena" is because it seemed like a decent description, but what I really mean is statistical in the sense of bayesian expectations combined with a principle of self-organisation. In many cases, this does simplify to the standard notions of Kolmogorov probability. But the generalisation lies in that hte probability space itself, is fundamentally uncertain too. And there is couplings that leads to interesting interactions which takes us beyond the simple classical statistics.

/Fredrik
 
  • #386
The problem I have with the classical probability theory is not only the issue of a fixed prior - this is solved in the bayesian approach, the other thing is that the probability space itself is supposedly given - this I can not wrap my head around. I suggest that even this space is subject to dynamics.

It shoudl be noted that this approach will simplify to the standard approach when the probability space is sufficiently stable, and when the prior is fairly stable we get the very classical probability like we have in classical thermodynamics too.

/Fredrik
 
  • #387
Fra said:
"truly statistical" - what exactly is that? To me it's an idealisation that doesn't quite make sense. Apparently or expected statistical or random yes, but "truly"? This is really one of the critical focus points IMO. Unless there is a proper discrimination between truly and apparent, then apparent is all we've got, and i think this distinction really does make a difference.
Actually, "truly statistical" and "derived from the most general principles of probabilities themselves" are meant as synonomous statements. So all I've stated is a tautology. What seems odd to me is that probabilities should at all be involved in the dynamics of particles interacting. Classically, we have dynamics driven by continuous fields between particles, and the outcoume is only determined by the initial conditions. What might be the case in other interactions of the same particles with the same initial conditions is not a consideration classically. It only depends on the particle properties at one given spacetime point. But in quantum mechanics some outcomes are made statistically impossible because of the interference pattern of the wavefunction (think double slit experiment). The probable nature of other possibilities seems to be taking priority over definite properties at each continuous spacetime point. This makes me think that the properties themselves have their origin in probability theory - and thus "derived" from the sample space considerations of probability theory.

The only counter argument I can think of is that there are no continuous particle properties, and we can't know which descrete level of property a particle might have. This would mean our theories can only be statistical in nature. But does that mean that nature itself is statistical in nature? The fact that we never see interaction where our statistical theories says none should occur does argue for the true statistical nature of reality. QM does assume and imply that reality is purely statistical in its very nature, right? What does purely statistical mean? I mean that every physical entity and every property of every entity has its origin in and is derived from the probability considerations of a sample space.
 
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  • #388
I think I understand what you mean, but...

...how do you imagine to *derive/deduce* (as opposed to guess & gamble) this sample space? Or is this sample space somehow not subject of suspicion, and does it never change?

If you place dice, once you know your dice you can play, but where did you get the dice in the first place?

If we know that the particle is in one state of a list of possibilities. Then of course there is no discussion and you already accepted the axioms of probability. But how do you know the premise in the first place? I think that's really the key point.

/Fredrik
 
  • #389
Fra said:
I think I understand what you mean, but...

...how do you imagine to *derive/deduce* (as opposed to guess & gamble) this sample space? Or is this sample space somehow not subject of suspicion, and does it never change?

If you place dice, once you know your dice you can play, but where did you get the dice in the first place?

If we know that the particle is in one state of a list of possibilities. Then of course there is no discussion and you already accepted the axioms of probability. But how do you know the premise in the first place? I think that's really the key point.

/Fredrik

You are thinking of particular examples of a sample space based on already known physical situations such as dice, cards, quantum effects, etc. But if ALL elemental physical entities, properties, and interactions are derived from probability theory, then we cannot start with a sample space of any known physical situation. We can only start with the principles of probability theory that are completely general. That would be to give it a feel of being derived from first principle. But then again, general principles are general principles precisely because they handle ALL situations. And we are trying to find a theoy that does handle ALL situations. So I think we need to try to derive physics from complete generality. What's that called, a top-down theory or a bottom-up, I don't remember which it is.
 
  • #390
Reading your last post... I wonder what are we talking about at this point? :-p I agree with parts of what you write but now I wonder if we are arguing past each other? I got the impression that you questioned what you now seem to argue in favour of.

I am definitely looking for a general model. The dice was of course but an example to suggest that one might need to generalize the formalism of probability theory even. Also the mere notion of "particle", and "space" are other examples.

/Fredrik
 
  • #391
I totally lost track of the discussion.. lol
Just out of curiosity, is there an interpretation for the wavefunction alone? we keep talking about probability, but that's the wavefunction by it's complex conjugate. is there is a way to interprete a complex function physically?
 
  • #392
Whether the wave function is real, and what it represents, are major questions in the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Many famous physicists have puzzled over this problem, such as Schrödinger. Some approaches regard it as merely representing information in the mind of the observer. Others argue that it must be objective:

"If we are to believe that anyone thing in the formalism is 'actually' real for a quantum system, then I think it has to be the wavefunction or state vector that describes quantum reality."

Penrose, R. Road To Reality, p508

maybe.
 
  • #393
Diego Floor said:
I totally lost track of the discussion.. lol
Just out of curiosity, is there an interpretation for the wave function alone? we keep talking about probability, but that's the wave function by it's complex conjugate. is there is a way to interprete a complex function physically?

Sorry if the conversation has become obscure. If you're curious about my perspective, you can of course always check out my home page on my personnel profile of Physics Forums.

But you ask what is the physical interpretation of the wave function. I think it is how one state propagates to the next state. I do not think that the wave function changes/collapses upon measurement. For it seems arbitrary where and when to do a measurement. We simply combine that wave function for propagation in one direction of time with the wave function for propagation in the reverse direction to get a probability of propagation from start to finish. So we are calculating the probability of two facts in conjunction. We calculate the probability of the initial state in conjunction with the finial state of a measurement,

I simply take it as no coincidence that this is similar to conjunction of two facts being equivalent to one fact implying the second in conjunction with the second fact implying the first, in symbols, a*b=(a->b)*(b->a). For it is most intuitive for me to understand propagation as a form of implication.
 
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  • #394
Diego Floor said:
I totally lost track of the discussion.. lol
Just out of curiosity, is there an interpretation for the wavefunction alone? we keep talking about probability, but that's the wavefunction by it's complex conjugate. is there is a way to interprete a complex function physically?

Real physical meaning can be assigned only to things that are measured directly: values of observables and probabilities. Wavefunctions and state vectors are not real things. They are parts of our mathematical model of reality. They live not in the real world, but in abstract Hilbert spaces. We use them, because they provide for us a convenient mathematical tool for calculations of measured values of observables and probabilities.

Eugene.
 
  • #395
meopemuk said:
Yes, your derivation is correct. However, why did you stop at taking the first time derivative of the Schroedinger equation? Why didn't you take 2nd derivative, 3rd derivative, etc?

The Klein-Gordon equation is particularly useful, because we know it to be Lorentz invariant, and know that its solutions don't lead to causality paradoxes. Immediate consequence is, that the solutions of the relativistic Shrodinger's equation don't lead to causality paradoxes either.

This is how the proof goes:

Solutions of relativistic SE are also solutions of the KGE. Because solutions of KGE are know to be paradox free, we conclude that so are solutions of relativistic SE paradox free too.

Can you say what's wrong in this?

I can tell what's wrong in the most popular proofs for the claim, that the relativistic SE would lead to paradoxes. One proof uses Taylor series of the square root. It is wrong because the series don't converge. One proof uses propagator, and a conclusion that if a function doesn't approach zero, then it's integral (or behaviour as a distribution) doesn't approach zero either. It is wrong, because integral can approach zero without the integrand approaching it.

Here,

F. Strocchi, "Relativistic quantum mechanics and field theory", Found. Phys. 34 (2004), 501; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0401143

I didn't even understand how the proof was supposed to work.(I thought it would be funny if we kept discussing about this same topic in several different threads. You know. New threads, old debate. :wink: I intended the other thread "propagation speeds in literature" to be about the history of this stuff.)
 
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  • #396
meopemuk said:
Real physical meaning can be assigned only to things that are measured directly: values of observables and probabilities. Wavefunctions and state vectors are not real things. They are parts of our mathematical model of reality. They live not in the real world, but in abstract Hilbert spaces. We use them, because they provide for us a convenient mathematical tool for calculations of measured values of observables and probabilities.

Eugene.

I think this is the clearest sentence so far in this thread. People keep confusing the state of the system with its representation in a position basis. The latter presupposes some operator which measures the position of a particle. In non-relativistic situations, we can foliate spacetime into simultaneous surfaces, and the trajectory of a particle can only cross each surface once, and must cross each surface once; therefore, the wavefunction in position basis can be understood to be a probability measure over space. Clearly, this breaks down badly in GR, where global foliation may not be possible. In SR, the situation is still complicated.

jostpuur: The problems with the KGE are mostly coming from a historical view. Historically, people wanted a theory for particles that's SR-compatible. However, in KGE, there is the possibility that the "current" goes negative, which made people think that it's not a valid model for a particle. The modern view is that the KGE equation doesn't model a particle, but a charged spin-0 boson, and the current is actually the charge-current, as opposed to the particle-current. Nevertheless, the "failure" of KGE pushed research, until the Dirac equation was found. Now, we understand bosons and fermions better, and we're more interested in field equations rather than just particles.
 
  • #397
genneth, check out my post #287 on the page 20 of this thread, and some discussion that followed. Some cooI stuff about KGE.
 
  • #398
jostpuur said:
The Klein-Gordon equation is particularly useful, because we know it to be Lorentz invariant, and know that its solutions don't lead to causality paradoxes. Immediate consequence is, that the solutions of the relativistic Shrodinger's equation don't lead to causality paradoxes either.

This is how the proof goes:

Solutions of relativistic SE are also solutions of the KGE. Because solutions of KGE are know to be paradox free, we conclude that so are solutions of relativistic SE paradox free too.

Can you say what's wrong in this?

What is your definition of "Lorentz invariance"? For example, why do you say that the Scroedinger equation


i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \psi(x,t) = \sqrt{-\hbar^2 c^2 \frac{\partial}{\partial t} + m^2 c^4} \psi(x,t)... (1)

is not Lorentz invariant while the Klein-Gordon equation

-\hbar^2 \frac{\partial^2}{\partial t^2} \psi(x,t) = (-\hbar^2 c^2 \frac{\partial}{\partial t} + m^2 c^4) \psi(x,t)...(2)

is Lorentz invariant?


What do you mean by "solutions of KGE are know to be paradox free"? How exactly you are using this statement for proving that solutions of (1) cannot exhibit superluminal propagation?

jostpuur said:
Here,

F. Strocchi, "Relativistic quantum mechanics and field theory", Found. Phys. 34 (2004), 501; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0401143

I didn't even understand how the proof was supposed to work.

In his proof Strocci uses a (supposedly well-known) lemma which states that the Fourier transform of an analytical function has a compact support (i.e., it is non-zero only in a finite region of its argument). And inversely, the Fourier transform of a function with compact support is analytical. I don't know how these statements are proved. However, intuitively, they make sense. An analytical function is supposed to be differentiable infinite number of times. So, its Fourier spectrum should not contain infinite frequencies, because they usually correspond to discontinuities of the function.

Once we established this, the Strocci's proof becomes simple. Suppose that the wave function \psi(x,0) has compact support (i.e., localized) at time t=0. If we assume that the spreading cannot be superluminal, we conclude that \psi(x,t) for finite t > 0 also has a compact support (the support at t=0 can expand only by ct, so it remains compact). Then, the time derivative \partial \psi(x,t)/ \partial t at t=0 also has a compact support. Now we can take the Fourier transform of both sides of the Schroedinger equation (1) at t=0

i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \psi(p,t) = \sqrt{p^2c^2 + m^2 c^4} \psi(p,t)....(3)

where (according to the Lemma) i \hbar \partial \psi(p,t) / \partial t and \psi(p,t) are both analytical functions of p. However, \sqrt{p^2c^2 + m^2 c^4} is not an analytical function of p. So, there cannot be equality between the left and right hand sides of (3). This controversy demonstrates that our assumption (that \psi(x,t) propagates with a finite speed) was wrong.
 
  • #399
genneth said:
People keep confusing the state of the system with its representation in a position basis. The latter presupposes some operator which measures the position of a particle.

This is exactly the point that I was trying to make several times. One cannot write wave function (Schroedinger, Klein-Gordon, Dirac, or whatever) \psi(x,t) before the operator of position is defined. Because \psi(x,t) is nothing but projections of the state vector on eigenvectors of the position operator.

Moreover, in order to know how the wave function \psi(x,t) transforms with respect to boosts one needs to know boost transformations of the position operator, i.e., the commutators of this operator with the boost generators.

Unfortunately, most textbook discussions of relativistic quantum mechanics do not bother to define the position operator. Some even claim that this operator does not exist. They simply postulate boost transformations of Klein-Gordon or Dirac "wave functions" without checking whether these transformations are consistent with time translations (i.e., whether the Poincare group properties are satisfied) and the conservation of probabilities (unitarity). This is especially strange since the correct way of doing these things is well-known for many decades:

E. P. Wigner, "On unitary representations of the inhomogeneous Lorentz group", Ann. Math. 40 (1939), 149.

T. D. Newton and E. P. Wigner, "Localized states for elementary systems", Rev. Mod. Phys. 21 (1949), 400.

Eugene.
 
  • #400
meopemuk said:
Unfortunately, most textbook discussions of relativistic quantum mechanics do not bother to define the position operator. Some even claim that this operator does not exist.

I think this is due to the heuristic "levelling" of position and time, which basically goes something like this:

Space and time are intertwined, as SR teaches us. In quantum mechanics, we end up isolating the time variable, which is also not an operator like the positions. Therefore, many failures to make a consistent special relativistic quantum mechanics can be attributed to this differing treatment of position and time. We therefore have two options: lift time to be an operator, or "lower" position to be non-operators. To pursue the latter, we note that in the Heisenberg picture, observables are actually families of observables, indexed by t: not A, but A(t). So now, we use the positions in a similar way: A(x, t). This actually wrecks havoc with any attempt to make a relativistic *particle* (as opposed to field) theory, but that's okay, because clearly we need fields in the relativistic case (yes -- that's a bit circular, but I never said I was defending this traditional view...). Now, we can say that the value of fields at each spacetime point is a doubly (or rather quadruply, but who's really counting?) indexed operator family, A(x, t). The rest, as they say, is history.

Now, you might wonder what about the other option? What about promoting time to be a real operator? Well, at least one textbook, by Srednicki, says that although it's possible, it turns out to be harder, due to the possibility of multiplicity of times (in the parameter of motion sense), and in any case, it's equivalent to the other way for special relativistic theories. Now, I should actually say that Srednicki deserves props for even mentioning the two possibilities, even if I'd say that the discussion is a bit lacking. Essentially, the inability for QFT to generalise to a background-free setting can be traced directly to this decision, but that's going into speculative grounds (or at least not well-accepted grounds).

So, back to the original point: people sometimes say that position isn't an operator in QFT, and that's what they mean. I personally think that's just because QFT is broken, but it's hard to find that many people who'd agree (by the way, let's not let this thread degenerate into a my-pet-theory-is-better-than-your-pet-theory -- and focus on the flaws and attributes of the standard, accepted theory; I know that meopemuk has at least differing views to me on this, but I don't think now is the right time to discuss them).
 
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