How to Calculate Temperature in a Multi-Layer Copper Box?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the temperature inside and outside a multi-layer copper box that houses a PCB, particularly in the context of a wireless project experiencing significant temperature rises due to high electrical currents. Participants explore the thermal dynamics involved in this setup, including material properties and design considerations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the dimensions and thermal properties of the PCB and the copper box, seeking assistance with temperature calculations.
  • Another participant questions the thermal insulation of the PCB, suggesting it contradicts the goal of managing heat transfer.
  • Concerns are raised about the ambient temperature specification and whether the environment is controlled.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the thermal design, indicating it may not be sound based on their experience.
  • Discussion includes the role of the plastic layer and its impact on heat transfer, with some suggesting it may hinder thermal management.
  • A participant mentions the presence of air space between the PCB and the inner copper box, prompting questions about ventilation and pressure conditions.
  • There is a suggestion to consider the design as a capacitor, raising questions about the relevance of thermal effects in this context.
  • One participant notes discrepancies in initial temperature calculations, indicating a significant difference from expected values and ongoing analysis with software tools.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need for collaboration between electrical and mechanical engineers to optimize thermal transfer in the design.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the thermal design, with some agreeing on the need for better thermal management while others challenge the rationale behind certain design choices. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the effectiveness of the current design and the best approach to calculate the temperatures involved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about the environment, the role of materials, and the specific conditions of the air space within the enclosure, which are not fully clarified. The discussion also reflects varying levels of expertise among participants, influencing their perspectives on the thermal analysis.

rsk2mc
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Hello, I will try and provide as much detail to the problem as I can with the hope someone can help me solve this. We are currently working on a wireless project that contains high electrical currents, because of this the box the electronics are enclosed in experience quite a temperature rise. The basic concept is I have a PCB that is housed inside a copper box, the copper box has 3 layers, outer layer is copper, middle layer is plastic, inner layer is copper. I want to calculate the temperature inside the copper box and outside the copper box.

Here are some details that we know:
The PCB dimensions are: 3mm H x 37mm W x 159mm L
The outer copper box outer dimensions are: 17.9mm H x 41.9mm W x 163.9mm L; wall thickness is 0.2 mm
The plastic box outer dimensions are: 17.5mm H x 41.5mm W x 163.5mm L; wall thickness is 3 mm
The inner copper box outer dimensions are: 15mm H x 39mm W x 161mm L; wall thickness is 0.2 mm
PCB Thermal conductivity: .25 W/m*K
Copper thermal conductivity: 400 W/m*K
Plastic thermal conductivity: .146 W/m*K
bPlastic emissivity: 0.9
Copper wall emissivity: 0.2
Ambient temperature: 20 C
max Temp: 41 C
Power: 7.6 W
Current: .48 amps
Resistance: 33 ohms

i have attached some pictures to help. Please let me know if you have any questions, I have been stuck on this problem.
 

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rsk2mc said:
Hello, I will try and provide as much detail to the problem as I can with the hope someone can help me solve this. We are currently working on a wireless project that contains high electrical currents, because of this the box the electronics are enclosed in experience quite a temperature rise. The basic concept is I have a PCB that is housed inside a copper box, the copper box has 3 layers, outer layer is copper, middle layer is plastic, inner layer is copper. I want to calculate the temperature inside the copper box and outside the copper box.

Here are some details that we know:
The PCB dimensions are: 3mm H x 37mm W x 159mm L
The outer copper box outer dimensions are: 17.9mm H x 41.9mm W x 163.9mm L; wall thickness is 0.2 mm
The plastic box outer dimensions are: 17.5mm H x 41.5mm W x 163.5mm L; wall thickness is 3 mm
The inner copper box outer dimensions are: 15mm H x 39mm W x 161mm L; wall thickness is 0.2 mm
PCB Thermal conductivity: .25 W/m*K
Copper thermal conductivity: 400 W/m*K
Plastic thermal conductivity: .146 W/m*K
bPlastic emissivity: 0.9
Copper wall emissivity: 0.2
Ambient temperature: 20 C
max Temp: 41 C
Power: 7.6 W
Current: .48 amps
Resistance: 33 ohms

i have attached some pictures to help. Please let me know if you have any questions, I have been stuck on this problem.
Hire a mechanical engineer, if you are not one, or collaborate with and undergrad in ME.
Start your analysis with the source from then you can calculate all the rest. Study heat transfer dynamics.
Your target ΔT = 41-20 =21 centigrade
 
rsk2mc said:
The basic concept is I have a PCB that is housed inside a copper box, the copper box has 3 layers, outer layer is copper, middle layer is plastic, inner layer is copper. I want to calculate the temperature inside the copper box and outside the copper box.
Why are you thermally insulationg the PCB if you are worried about heat transfer and temperature rise? And why are you specifying Tambient ast 20C? Is this i a controlled lab environment?
 
The above info is what was given to me, I did not derive these numbers. I have been away from heat transfer for quite a while, I'm more focused in stress analysis. This is in a controlled environment, this is a healthcare application.
 
Well tell them the design makes no sense to experienced engineers. Their thermal design is wrong.
 
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This design was actually made by Electrical Engineers, then the obvious problems occurred, MEs were brought in.
 
berkeman said:
Why are you thermally insulationg the PCB if you are worried about heat transfer and temperature rise? And why are you specifying Tambient ast 20C? Is this i a controlled lab environment?
This is a capacitor don't you think? The dielectric is in between copper
 
I'm an EE. and I do thermal analyses all the time. Ask the EEs for the junction temperature analysis of the semiconductors in this design. They are responsible for that, not the MEs by themselves.

In more cooperative work environments, we work together with the MEs to optimize the thermal transfer from the semiconductor junctions on our PCBs to the ambient air. We use "thermal resistance" numbers in degrees C per Watt for these calculations.

And can you say what the insulation plastic layer is for in the design. It goes against drawing heat energy out of the core, obviously...
 
The material is ULTEM and the pcb is FR4.
 
  • #10
rsk2mc said:
This design was actually made by Electrical Engineers, then the obvious problems occurred, MEs were brought in.
Are all the materials arranged in compact not spaced void in between, when you cut it in a cross section? If so this is a conduction heat transfer. This may help
3-heat-conduction-equation-compatibility-mode-4-638.jpg
 
  • #11
There is air space between the pcb and the inner copper box.
 
  • #12
rsk2mc said:
There is air space between the pcb and the inner copper box.
Is that space in between ventilated or open to the outside?
 
  • #13
No, it's all enclosed.
 
  • #14
rsk2mc said:
No, it's all enclosed.
Is it depressurized or evacuated with air?
 
  • #15
Ronie Bayron said:
This is a capacitor don't you think?
Wait, this is a capacitor, and you are worried about thermal effects? I need to re-read the thread. Wait one...
 
  • #16
rsk2mc said:
We are currently working on a wireless project that contains high electrical currents, because of this the box the electronics are enclosed in experience quite a temperature rise. The basic concept is I have a PCB that is housed inside a copper box, the copper box has 3 layers, outer layer is copper, middle layer is plastic, inner layer is copper. I want to calculate the temperature inside the copper box and outside the copper box.
That is just a capacitor?
 
  • #17
berkeman said:
Wait, this is a capacitor, and you are worried about thermal effects? I need to re-read the thread. Wait one...
It's a form of shielding from interference I guess
 
  • #18
No, the pcb is set inside the copper enclosure. The heat is mainly caused by rf and stray currents.
 
  • #19
It is not depresserized. It is a form of shielding. The reason I posted this is because my initial calcs are off by 80 degrees and I'm not sure what I'm missing. I am on the process of running an Ansys analysis but I was hoping to solve this by hand. We have tested this which is how I know the temperature reached 180 F
 
  • #20
rsk2mc said:
It is not depresserized. It is a form of shielding. The reason I posted this is because my initial calcs are off by 80 degrees and I'm not sure what I'm missing. I am on the process of running an Ansys analysis but I was hoping to solve this by hand. We have tested this which is how I know the temperature reached 180 F
The EE working on this shielding should post here so we can help him/her. There are ways to design good electrical shielding with adequate thermal transfer...
 
  • #21
rsk2mc said:
It is not depresserized. It is a form of shielding. The reason I posted this is because my initial calcs are off by 80 degrees and I'm not sure what I'm missing. I am on the process of running an Ansys analysis but I was hoping to solve this by hand. We have tested this which is how I know the temperature reached 180 F
If its not depressurized (the cavity inside or in between pcb and encasement and assuming that there are no vents as you said) then you would get ΔP/ΔT = constant relationship. RF does not heat up anything if there is no media in between pcb to heat up.

The space in between should be vented or not, evacuated/depressurized it so you can treat your analysis from the pcb pure radiative heat.[/SUP]
 
  • #22
rsk2mc said:
No, the pcb is set inside the copper enclosure. The heat is mainly caused by rf and stray currents.
If its caused by that, try evacuate the cavity between pcb and copper enclosure from air, then ground first layer copper enclosure. It's worth to try.
 

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