How to show that the two EM invariants are a complete set?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the completeness of two Lorentz scalars, P and Q, in electromagnetism, specifically whether they form a complete set of invariants for the electromagnetic field tensor. Participants explore theoretical approaches to prove this claim, considering the implications of transformations such as boosts and rotations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to prove that P and Q are a complete set of invariants, suggesting that demonstrating the ability to express any invariant in terms of these two might involve canonical forms of the field tensor.
  • Another participant proposes that by applying a rotation and a boost, E and B can be aligned along the x-axis, indicating that there are only two degrees of freedom, thus suggesting only two invariants exist.
  • However, a different participant challenges this reasoning, arguing that if E·B is non-zero, there cannot be a frame where both E and B lie along the x-axis, as this would imply E·B = 0.
  • There is a correction from a participant acknowledging their misunderstanding regarding the relationship between the parallel nature of E and B and their dot product.
  • Links to external resources are provided by participants, indicating that there are multiple approaches to understanding the invariants of the electromagnetic field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of aligning E and B along the x-axis and the conditions under which P and Q can be considered a complete set of invariants. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the conditions under which the invariants hold, particularly in relation to the non-vanishing of P and Q and the implications of transformations on the electromagnetic fields.

bcrowell
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In electromagnetism we have these two Lorentz scalars:

##P=B^2-E^2##

##Q=E\cdot B##

WP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_electromagnetic_fields claims that these are a complete set of invariants, because "every other invariant can be expressed in terms of these two." How does one prove this? Would the idea be to show that any electromagnetic field tensor can be rendered into one of a set of canonical forms by boosts and rotations? Or maybe you could fiddle with the eigenvalues of the field tensor?

Is the claim only true for invariants that are continuous functions of the field tensor (i.e., continuous functions of its components)?
 
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I haven't worked this out fully, but the following might do the job. In the general case, where neither P nor Q vanishes, I think you can do a rotation and a boost such that E and B both lie along the x axis. Then clearly there are only two degrees of freedom, corresponding to the x components of the two fields, so there can only be two invariants.
 
bcrowell said:
I haven't worked this out fully, but the following might do the job. In the general case, where neither P nor Q vanishes, I think you can do a rotation and a boost such that E and B both lie along the x axis. Then clearly there are only two degrees of freedom, corresponding to the x components of the two fields, so there can only be two invariants.
I don't think this can be the case. If E.B is non-zero, and it is an invariant, then there is no frame where both E and B lie along the x-axis, because then E.B = 0.
 
phyzguy said:
I don't think this can be the case. If E.B is non-zero, and it is an invariant, then there is no frame where both E and B lie along the x-axis, because then E.B = 0.

Sorry, I don't follow you. If E and B are parallel and both nonzero, then their dot product is nonzero.
 
bcrowell said:
Sorry, I don't follow you. If E and B are parallel and both nonzero, then their dot product is nonzero.

You're right of course. Should teach me to post when I'm tired. Please ignore my comment.
 

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