Hydrogen Atom Shells: Inner & Outer Electron Shells?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of electron shells in hydrogen atoms and other elements, exploring whether hydrogen has inner and outer shells, the nature of atomic borders, and the behavior of electrons in atoms under various conditions. The scope includes theoretical aspects of atomic structure, quantum mechanics, and implications for chemistry.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether hydrogen atoms have inner and outer electron shells, noting that hydrogen has only one electron, which complicates the concept of shells.
  • Others explain that the term "shell" typically refers to electrons sharing the same principal quantum number, and that only outermost electrons (valence electrons) are often relevant in chemical contexts.
  • There is a discussion about the "fuzzy" nature of atomic structure due to quantum mechanics, with suggestions that the diameter of an atom could be defined by the probability of finding electrons within a certain radius.
  • Participants explore the idea of electron intermingling in atoms, with one noting that electrons occupy diffuse orbitals and can be found near the nucleus, while the Pauli exclusion principle prevents identical electrons from occupying the same state.
  • Questions are raised about the official border of a hydrogen atom and its average diameter, with references to the Bohr model providing a semi-classical estimate of atomic size.
  • One participant agrees with a previous explanation and elaborates on the arbitrary nature of defining atomic borders, suggesting various statistical methods for calculating electron density distributions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and definition of electron shells in hydrogen and other atoms. While some agree on the complexity of defining atomic borders, there is no consensus on the implications of these definitions or the nature of electron behavior in atoms.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of atomic borders and the unresolved nature of how to classify electron states in different contexts, particularly in molecules where atomic identities may blur.

Bluer777
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Do hydrogen atoms have inner and outer electron shells? I saw a diagram somewhere that showed a carbon atom with an inner and outer shell, is this proven? Are these shells magnetic or something else? Do you consider the outside of these shells as the diameter of the atom?
 
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Bluer777 said:
Do hydrogen atoms have inner and outer electron shells?
I saw a diagram somewhere that showed a carbon atom with an inner and outer shell, is this proven?

Hydrogen only has one electron, so it makes no sense to talk about shells. As for other atoms, different electrons occupy different states (atomic orbitals), which can be classified according to shells. Only the outermost electrons, called valence electrons, are relevant in most cases (spectroscopy, chemistry, etc.)

Bluer777 said:
Are these shells magnetic or something else?
Usually, the word shell is applied to all electrons who share the same principle quantum number ##n##.

Bluer777 said:
Do you consider the outside of these shells as the diameter of the atom?
Because of quantum mechanics, the actual shape of an atom is "fuzzy". For an isolated atom, you could use something like the sphere within which there is a 90% probability of finding all electrons. For atoms bound into molecules and solids, equilibrium bond distance can be used as a starting point.
 
What keeps the atoms from intermingling electrons. If hydrogen atoms were pressurized in a vessel, what would keep them from mixing together? What is the official border of a H atom? What is the average diameter of an H atom?
 
Bluer777 said:
What keeps the atoms from intermingling electrons.
They are intermingled, in the sense that the electrons are not on neat orbits, but occupy diffuse orbitals. For instance, there is a non-zero probability of finding even a valence (outer) electron at the nucleus. But the Rules of Quantum Mechanics (the Pauli exclusion principle, to be precise) make it such that two electrons in the same atom cannot be in the same state, and therefore the more electrons an atoms has, the greater the number of states (orbitals) needed, and these increase in energy, such that electrons are found on average farther and farther away from the nucleus.

Bluer777 said:
If hydrogen atoms were pressurized in a vessel, what would keep them from mixing together?
At one point, two atoms will start exchanging their electrons and you will form a molecule :smile:

Bluer777 said:
What is the official border of a H atom? What is the average diameter of an H atom?
There is no "official" border, the calculation always has a part of arbitrary in it. In the Bohr model of the atom, with is semi-classical (meaning not fully quantum mechanical), the electron orbits at a radius of ##0.52 \times 10^{-10}\ \mathrm{m}##, so that gives you an idea of the size of an atom.
 
I completely agree with everything DrClaude said. I'd just like to somewhat rephrase this, because it might come off wrong:
DrClaude said:
There is no "official" border, the calculation always has a part of arbitrary in it.
It is perfectly possible to calculate (very accurately) the average electron density distribution in an atom, or any statistical moments of it. For example, one can evaluate the expectation values <|r|^n>, where r is the operator of electron distance from the nucleus. The arbitrariness now only comes from assigning atomic borders based on that.
For example, one could define something like √(<r^2>) or <|r|> as the distance (both being equally valid), or the distance r where there is less than 10% (or 1% or 0.1%...) of finding an electron at radii > r.

Technically every electron of every atom has non-zero expectation values of being anywhere in space, and where you want to consider this probability as ``small enough'' is more or less up to you. The situation is even more complicated when it comes to talking about atoms in molecules, because technically the atoms lose their identity in molecules andcannot be strictly separated (but that's not the entire truth, either, because often they, in fact, can).
 

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