Ice Age Floods cause mass extinctions?

[Mk]

Isostatic?

 

[nannoh]

Isostatic?

Isostatic lift takes place as the weight of glaciation is removed from a land mass, or a large portion of the crust as was the case with the Ice Age. Cuba somehow strikes me as a place where Isostatic lift would not have occurred to the same degree that it did in the northern portion of the Northern Hemisphere. The coastline along the NorthWest coast is 500 ft below where it was 11,000 years or so ago because of this phenomenon. I don't see this as a contributing factor in Cuba. Then again, I may be wrong.

Is there any data on the effects of isostatic lift in the equatorial regions and those regions around Cuba? The overall rise in sea level due to the incursion of Meltwater and other end of the Ice Age factors would have had an effect in Cuba but that is reported to be around 60 meters which is about 180 ft. These Cuban ruins are sitting at 720 ft under water.

 

[Andre]

Make that 720 meter or about 2200 feet.

 

[nannoh]

Make that 720 meter or about 2200 feet.

Thank you for the correction Andre. I didn't see a city in the photograph but there were some remains of columns. Its still an anomaly that requires an explanation regarding its depth and whether or not it was once above sea level while it was in situ.

 

[nannoh]

NOVA has a page called the "Mystery Of The Mega flood" referring to the Purcell Lobe of the Cordilleran ice sheet, Glacial Lake Missoula and the Glacial Lake Missoula's "ice dam" and subsequent flooding from these features. Most of the content of the article is from

David Alt, a geology professor emeritus at the University of Montana in Missoula, (who) is author of Glacial Lake Missoula and Its Humongous Floods (Mountain Press Publishing Co., 2001)(.T)his article was excerpted with kind permission of the author and the publisher. He has studied Glacial Lake Missoula and its floods since the 1960s.

There are illustrations that give you a better idea of the scale and mechanism of this sort of flood. Professor Alt suggests that we can learn from "these kinds of floods" and although he doesn't specify how in the article. I'm sure he explains this in his book.

One thing the article claims is that these floods happened every summer and that the sea level rose 100 feet every 1000 years as a result of the floods. I did not see the data nor the method of verifying this statement in the article.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/lake.html

Also, after careful re-examination of the tragedy I reported concerning the deaths of 7000 members of the Sihk Army during a flash flood in India I managed to find out that the flood was caused by meltwater from a glacier in the Himilayas that had been backed up by a landslide in a remote valley of the region. So the flood was not released by a melting ice dam as I mistakenly assumed upon first hearing about the incident.

Megafloods: Visualizing Effects of Catastorphic Ice Age Floods in Washington State

These are 3D modeled visualizations of the effects of the "Mega Flood" with some interesting comentary.

http://nvizx.typepad.com/nvizx_weblog/2005/10/megafloods_visu.html

 

[nannoh]

Chinese Research Institute asks for preparedness
in defence against the event of glacial outbursts of meltwater.

A research team led by Prof .LI Xin from the Cold & Arid Regions Environmental and Engineering Research Institute under CAS recently appealed to the authorities to set up an early warning system for the possible floods due to glacial lake outburst in China's alpine hinterland

http://www.ebast.net.cn/ebast/kxpj/72558.shtml

English version,

http://english.cas.ac.cn/eng2003/news/detailnewsb.asp?InfoNo=26065


Here's another example of modern day flood threats posed by glaciation. This one hasn't actually melted since it was first monitored in 2003. Perhaps Peru has been cooling off?

Peril in Peru? NASA Takes a Look at Menacing Glacier

April 15, 2003

An Earth-monitoring instrument aboard NASA's Terra satellite is keeping a close eye on a potential glacial disaster-in-the-making in Peru's spectacular, snow-capped Cordillera Blanca (White Mountains), the highest range of the Peruvian Andes.

Data from NASA's Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer (Aster) is assisting Peruvian government officials and geologists in monitoring a glacier that feeds Lake Palcacocha, located high above the city of Huaraz, 270 kilometers (168 miles) north of Lima. An ominous crack has developed in the glacier. Should the large glacier chunk break off and fall into the lake, the ensuing flood could hurtle down the Cojup Valley into the Rio Santa Valley below, reaching Huaraz and its population of 60,000 in less than 15 minutes.

http://www.brightsurf.com/news/april_03/JPL_news_041503.html


I found the "Jökulhlaup Updates" which is the record of the glacial flood that took place in Iceland back in the 1990s.

The whole document reads about the damages and the causes of the flood.

Here
http://www.hi.is/~mmh/gos/vat-update.html

 

[nannoh]

Lack of Evidence for "World Wide Flood" and mass extinction

It is appearing more and more logical to assume that the amount of damage done by Ice Age Floods to various species around the globe could not have amounted to a mass extinction of any of the populations as was questioned in the heading of this thread.

A correspondent on a space exploration discussion group, as an example, writes as follows in this regard:

Many different cultures describe an “ark-like” event and a Noah-like man. There is also scientific evidence that indicates that many animals were killed and transported far from their natural habitats, as though by wild, rushing water.

I replied: I'd like to see this evidence, because it's precisely the lack of such evidence that leads science to conclude that there never was a worldwide all-embracing flood (local floods are allowed by the evidence, yes). In particular, studies of the multitudinous islands scattered round the oceans of the world show that their various organisms arrived accidentally (in very small numbers in the case of the most remote isles) by wing, by sea, or by floating objects upon it, and then evolved for millions of years (without being wiped out by floods) in total isolation, “radiating” into a spectrum of diverse living forms, filling available ecological niches that on continents would be occupied by more conventional organisms. A worldwide flood would have drowned the flora and fauna of these isolated islands, which manifestly has not occurred.

Moreover, the survival of radically different lineages of organisms (marsupials, giant birds, etc.) on remote continents such as Australia also demonstrates that no catastrophic flood followed by the dispersal of living forms from something like an “ark” ever took place.

Our correspondent then came back:

Woolly mammoths have been found almost perfectly preserved in arctic regions. They were so well preserved that their last meals had still not been digested.

Why is that significant?

1) They died so fast that they were not capable of digesting their last meal (your stomach usually continues to work if you are dying slowly of natural causes).

2) The contents of their stomachs were temperate climate vegetation — not arctic. Woolly Mammoths were not Tundra-dwellers, but that's where they were found.

These carcasses are about 12-13,000 years old.

The bodies exhibit signs of severe stress — as though they were tossed about in fast-rushing water and slammed against rocks.

There's your evidence, Mr. McNeil.

I'm afraid not, though those are very interesting cases. I've already stated that regional floods are perfectly well allowed by the geological and paleontological evidence, which is all we're talking about here. Regional floods, however massive, are a very far cry from the kind of world-embracing, topping-the-highest-mountains floods that the Noah's ark mythology conceives of.

The great volcano Mount Ararat, for example, on whose heights Noah's ark supposedly came to rest, rises to 16,864 feet (5,140 meters) above present sea level, whereas as I intimated before, oceanic island evidence proves conclusively that there has never (for many millions of years) been a flood that raised the level of the oceans by more than a few hundred feet (a hundred meters or so) above today's sea level.

Glacial lakes and associated large-scale flooding were common on the extremities of ice-age ice sheets, and the instances of frozen mammoths from Siberia that were cited are cases in point. The rivers of Siberia all run exclusively northward, which means even now that the upper courses of Siberian rivers at spring melt flow extremely vigorously while their lower reaches are still locked in ice, producing sizable floods every year. These alone are sufficient to kill herds of unwary animals, such as caribou or (if there still were any) mammoths. However, during the ice age, though the Siberian region was mostly free from ice sheet cover (a matter of the balance of precipitation vs. annual melt, not so much of cold), its rivers flowed towards the then-perpetually frozen Arctic Ocean, and on the way the waters backed up in numerous vast glacial lakes. When those lakes were breached, tremendous downstream flooding would ensue — even more capable of extinguishing life in the mass than the situation we see today.

There's no need to suppose, however, that the mammoth remains in Siberia which have been found were carried to their final resting spots over any very great distances. As we saw in the case of the Glacial Lake Missoula floods, the torrent can rage for hundreds of miles, but we need not presume so for the Siberian mammoths found, nor is any extensive distance traveled required to fit the evidence. One of the intact mammoth corpses was found by the banks of Siberia's Lena River, for example, and there's no particular reason to think that it and others originated very far from where they were found.

http://impearls.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_impearls_archive.html

 

[Mk]

it's precisely the lack of such evidence that leads science to conclude that there never was a worldwide all-embracing flood

Is absence of evidence evidence of absence?

 

[Andre]

Holdit There is ample positive evidence for several regions at lower elevations that those were not flooded in the last 10-20,000 years or so.

The continuous fresh water stratifications of lake sediments for instance would certainly have shown differences like that.

 

[nannoh]

Is absence of evidence evidence of absence?

As Andre has pointed out there is evidence of a lack of flooding in many areas around the globe. I guess Mr.McNeil called this "a lack of evidence" without identifying that it was evidence of an absence of flooding.

What is not mentioned is the anthropological and sociological aspect of these floods and the stories that grew out of the events. The less traveled amongst the storytellers would have imagined that the whole world had been flooded, since their coastal cities and even inland centers would have been flooded and these were pretty well all they knew of the world. It is hypothesisized that the 9500 year old Indian civilization inundated by Ice Age Flooding and resultant rising sea levels (and found in 2002 AD under 40 meters of ocean water off the west coast of India) had a formidable merchant marine fleet of trading ships that traded relatively far from its homeland shores.

This worldly trading, however, does not seem to have stemmed the idea that when the floods destroyed their cities the whole world had been catastrophically flooded. And so, amazingly to this day, people believe that the entire world was flooded at one point during the past. There are stories all the way from India, through Vietnam and up to the Northwest Coast of North America about an all encompassing flood and many are stories about the creation of/or the resurgence of civilization. However, for the most part, these stories are accounts based on the lesser travels of people with a restricted view of the entire globe and who imagined their understanding of their region to be an understanding of the entire world (not unlike the "global warming" hypothesis).

What is becoming more and more apparent as research and exploration continues is that these Ice Age Floods came at various times over an approximately 7000 year period after the Last Glacial Maximum. So that, lacking firm dates for each of the world flood stories, we can roughly assume that each story relates an event timeline that is somewhat different from the next. Only extremely diligent dating techniques would be able to prove this assumption.

 

[nannoh]

Warming trend in the Himilayas

Right off the bat the Global Warming specialists would call this an indication of just that - global warming - I will only go as far as to say that this article points to a warming in the Himalayan region.

Chinese and foreign researchers call for regional cooperation in fighting against the potential flooding from rapidly melting glaciers in the Himalayan region.

Chinese researchers are considering sharing satellite monitoring resources and air-borne remote-control surveys with neighboring nations like Nepal and India.

Ren Jiawen, a top Chinese glacial researcher with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, said that a regional approach will upgrade the monitoring and combat systems of such a transnational issue.

Such an approach has also been proposed by researchers from Nepal and the United Nations' Environment Program (UNEP).

The frequency of glacial floods has risen over the past three decades.

Tens of thousands of residents are at risk from the floods along with people's properties and businesses, having the potential to cause havoc on the region's economy.

According to the latest UNEP report, which was released in April, at least 44 glacial lakes in Bhutan and Nepal could burst banks in five years.

Surrenda Shrestha, regional co-ordinator in Asia for UNEP's Division of Early Warning and Assessment, has also warned that other areas in the Himalayas and across the world are in a similar critical state.

About 12 glacier incidents have been recorded in China's Tibet since 1935. The latest one took place in 1981 and destroyed three concrete bridges and crippled a long section of the Nepal-China Highway.

P.K. Mool, a leading researcher from the Nepal-based International Center for Integrated Mountain Development, urged joint efforts in inventory, monitoring, mitigation work and early warning systems.

UNEP said it is ready to assist by mobilizing necessary resources for regional partnerships in the Himalayan area.

On average, air temperatures in the Himalayan region are 1 degree C higher than during the 1970s, a rise of 0.06 degrees C per year, according to the UNEP report.

http://english.people.com.cn/200206/03/eng20020603_97024.shtml

 

[Andre]

Glacier waxing and waning depends on two factors, temperature and precipitation. Have we detailed records of both?

 

[nannoh]

Glacier waxing and waning depends on two factors, temperature and precipitation. Have we detailed records of both?

I'd like to know myself. The other discrepancy is that the article mentions 8 glacial floods since around the 1930s yet only sites that temperatures have risen a degree per year since 1970. Was there more rainfall in the years before 1970 that caused melting and flooding? Was there a warming trend that was continuing through the 1930s that caused the floods?

 

[nannoh]

Glacier waxing and waning depends on two factors, temperature and precipitation. Have we detailed records of both?

This portion of an abstract about the area may be of some help in determining an answer to your question.

Cryosphere-Climate Interactions (IAMAS [ICCl, ICPM], IAPSO, IAHS) 

The result shows that the central Himalayas has suffered a dry period in early 1800-1820, thereafter a wet condition between 1820-1930, and again a dry period since 1930 to present. Moreover, there exists a strong negative correlation between the precipitation in central Himalayas and the northern global temperature. According to IPCC reports, a global temperature will increase of 0.1-0.2?/10a. If this is the case, the glaciers on Himalayas, including our studying site, have been continual retreating, decreasing precipitation and accumulation and negative mass balance.

http://www.cig.ensmp.fr/~iahs/sapporo/abs/jsm10_p/007366-1.html

and about temperature, Andre will like the lack of support behind using isotopes as a measure of temperatures and other past meterological conditions.

The factors that govern the values of stable isotopic ratios
in snowfall are enigmatic and at present, no satisfactory model has been developed
to link them directly with any single meteorological or oceanographic factor. This
is particularly problematic for the high elevation tropical glaciers, where com-
plications arise not only from continental effects, but also from altitude effects
associated with convection which is the primary precipitation mechanism over
tropical South America and the monsoon dominated regions of Asia.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...ayas+1930+-+present&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=22

 

[nannoh]

Extintion Models

Physical Menaces to Long Term Sustainability

The article linked below does not mention Ice Age Floods as a factor contributing to mass extinction. In fact, it points out how tough the Human species is and the kind sustainability that results from our toughness.

Every possible mechanism of extinction is reviewed here including Nuclear War, the next Ice Age, Technological terrorism and Global Warming. Humans and mammals in general appear to fare well through times like these, in the terms of species sustainability.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/menaces.html

 

[nannoh]

I see that there has been a lot of interest in this thread yet no one is posting comments. If you could find the time it would be interesting if you could post a comment explaining why you're interested in Ice Age or Glacial Flooding and add any information you have to the thread. Thank you

Here's another link that demonstrates the power of Glacial Flooding. In this case it is theorized that this kind of incident can effect the climate to a dramatic degree by halting the Gulf Stream. Andre may have an alternative story regarding this phenomenon.

Catastrophic Flooding from Ancient Lake May Have Triggered Cold Period

Paleogeography 13,400 years ago. Glacial Lake Iroquois is held back by an ice dam in northern New York. When that dam collapsed it drained into the lakes within the Champlain and Hudson Valleys, breaching the Narrows Dam (near present day New York City). It cascaded across the then exposed continental shelf to the North Atlantic Ocean. This release of meltwater reduced the flow of the Gulf Stream and caused an abrupt climate cooling in the Northern Hemisphere that lasted several hundred years.

Glacial Lake Candona drains into the North Atlantic through the St. Lawrence Valley as the ice sheet retreats from the region. The drainage of Glacial Lake Candona and the opening of the drainage out the St. Lawrence initiated another shut down of the Gulf Stream, causing the Younger Dryas cold interval.

Ocean and Climate Change Institute

Imagine a lake three times the size of the present-day Lake Ontario breaking through a dam and flooding down the Hudson River Valley past New York City and into the North Atlantic. The results would be catastrophic if it happened today, but it did happen some 13,400 years ago during the retreat of glaciers over North America and may have triggered a brief cooling known as the Intra-Allerod Cold Period.

http://www.whoi.edu/mr/pr.do?id=2078

 

[Bystander]

I see that there has been a lot of interest in this thread yet no one is posting comments. If you could find the time it would be interesting if you could post a comment explaining why you're interested in Ice Age or Glacial Flooding and add any information you have to the thread. Thank you

Here's another link that demonstrates the power of Glacial Flooding. In this case it is theorized that this kind of incident can effect the climate to a dramatic degree by halting the Gulf Stream. Andre may have an alternative story regarding this phenomenon.

http://www.whoi.edu/mr/pr.do?id=2078

Iriquois, Candona volumes compare in what magnitude to the annual flow of the "Atlantic Conveyor?" Not quite as great a disparity as throwing tennis balls at oncoming trains, but as far as affecting ocean circulation for centuries? Nerp.

 

[Andre]

Iriquois, Candona volumes compare in what magnitude to the annual flow of the "Atlantic Conveyor?" Not quite as great a disparity as throwing tennis balls at oncoming trains, but as far as affecting ocean circulation for centuries? Nerp.

Another problem is the Sea Surface Temperatures in the Cariacio bassin near Venezuela, those plummeted during the Bolling Allerod alleged warm period. If the conveyer had slowed down, then the tropical SST would have risen due to the reduced outflow of heated water.

 

[nannoh]

Iriquois, Candona volumes compare in what magnitude to the annual flow of the "Atlantic Conveyor?" Not quite as great a disparity as throwing tennis balls at oncoming trains, but as far as affecting ocean circulation for centuries? Nerp.

If you have any statistics regarding your statement they might help to substantiate it.

It was not only the Iriquois, Candona volumes dumping into the Atlantic at the time. There had to have been a large number of floods happening during the recession of the Ice Fields. I will try to compile them but I know the information is as rare as the breed of researcher who is doing geological studies of those remaining features caused by the Ice Age Floods.

 

[Bystander]

If you have any statistics regarding your statement they might help to substantiate it.
(snip)

Atlantic conveyor runs around a million cubic kilometers per year, global run-off is around thirty thousand cubic kilometers per year. Slugs of a few thousand cubic kilometers here and there (huge floods) aren't all that significant. Missoula, annual flooding on Nile, or Mississippi, or Yangtze are measured in hundred(s) of cubic kilometers. These are remarkable events if you happen to be living in the run-off path; they aren't remarkable events in terms of the global hydrologic cycle.

 

[nannoh]

Atlantic conveyor runs around a million cubic kilometers per year, global run-off is around thirty thousand cubic kilometers per year. Slugs of a few thousand cubic kilometers here and there (huge floods) aren't all that significant. Missoula, annual flooding on Nile, or Mississippi, or Yangtze are measured in hundred(s) of cubic kilometers. These are remarkable events if you happen to be living in the run-off path; they aren't remarkable events in terms of the global hydrologic cycle.

I can see the disparity between the amounts of water but not the effect temperature change would have on a specific current. It may also be true that the temperature of the floods would not necessarily be much colder than the ocean after sitting as a lake or traveling several hundreds of miles over the surface and in a warming atmosphere.

I also wonder if the introduction of what we see as a large amount of fresh water into a saline ocean would have a slowing or halting effect on the current.

_____________________________

Its interesting how the geologic information gathered about the Ice Age Floods™ is now being used to explain some terrains on mars.

Scientific study of the Ice Age Floods is contributing to the understanding of cyclical climate change and of very large and destructive contemporary floods on Earth. The Ice Age Floods have also been considered as an analog to understand geologic processes on Mars, where landforms strikingly similar to those in Eastern Washington exist.

http://www.iceagefloodsinstitute.org/aboutfloods/relatedphenomena.html

I was back on that site looking for the stats on the volume of fresh water that was released by the disintegration of the ice dams in that region. As I remember it the volume was more like 150,000 cubic kilometres but I can't find the stat. And this was only one reservoir behind an ice dam in the NW.

I think we have to remember that the Ice Fields were commonly 2 miles thick. They covered an area of about 70,000 sq miles. That translates into a lot of melt water even if it melted over 2000 years or more.

 

[Bystander]

(snip)I think we have to remember that the Ice Fields were commonly 2 miles thick. They covered an area of about 70,000 sq miles. That translates into a lot of melt water even if it melted over 2000 years or more.

http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1130%2F0016-7606(2003)115%3C0624:NASOLM%3E2.0.CO%3B2

"Lot of melt water..." 70k x 2 x 4 = 560 k cubic kilometers; 2000 yrs. x 30 k/a = 60 M cubic kilometers. Global runoff is 1% higher during the ice age meltdown? Effects on ocean circulation associated with rising water level are going to be far greater than odd little discharge spikes.

 

[nannoh]

http://www.gsajournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1130%2F0016-7606(2003)115%3C0624:NASOLM%3E2.0.CO%3B2

"Lot of melt water..." 70k x 2 x 4 = 560 k cubic kilometers; 2000 yrs. x 30 k/a = 60 M cubic kilometers. Global runoff is 1% higher during the ice age meltdown? Effects on ocean circulation associated with rising water level are going to be far greater than odd little discharge spikes.

Very nice math! I'm not sure that we are calculating the effects of the changes caused by a: fresh water or b: temperature to the system of the Gulf Stream. Simply stating volume vs volume does not look into the
effects of these factors. Is there a text on the effects of fresh water and colder water on warm currents?

 

[Bystander]

Your turn to do the math: come up with a mechanism for stalling the conveyor, and the energy or power necessary to do so that can be derived from excess fresh water runoff.

 

[nannoh]

Your turn to do the math: come up with a mechanism for stalling the conveyor, and the energy or power necessary to do so that can be derived from excess fresh water runoff.

No math yet but there are some factors reported by various research endevours.

These have to do with mineral content in meltwater and its effects on biomass and ocean saltwater but may work somewhat to help or hinder the idea that glacial meltwater can disrupt an ocean current of warmer, denser water. There really didn't seem to be much information specifically pertaining to the focus of this side issue.

http://snobear.colorado.edu/Markw/Research/06_ppp.pdf

And

Finally, the input of meltwater can have a significant influence on the formation of sea ice in this region. In fresher water, the freezing point of water is higher and less energy is required to produce sea ice. Additionally, the amount of stratification in the upper water column also significantly influences the heating and cooling rates of the sea surface. Both the salinity and cooling rate of the surface layer will influence the onset of sea ice formation, which has important implications from oceanographic, climatological, and biological perspectives. Sea ice is an important component of the ocean-atmosphere heat flux and critical to the formation of Antarctic bottom water (17). The annual advance and retreat of sea ice is also a major physical determinant

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/4/1790

And from the same source

Meltwater Interactions Onshore to Offshore. Vertical contours of salinity (Fig. 4 Left) and Chl (Fig. 4 Right) are presented for a transect extending from shore out to 160 km. These example profiles were obtained along the 600 line (Fig. 1A) from five summer cruises (January 1993-1997). Lower salinity is associated with waters close to shore, and salinity gradually increases with distance from shore. Highly stratified meltwater layers extending nearly 100 km offshore are observed in 1995 and 1996. This observation also coincides with the on- to offshore gradient in biomass. The low-salinity surface water is generally mixed between 50 and 80 m within 100 km offshore.

Here's more,

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/crls.rxml

http://www.viking.no/e/travels/weather/e-current.htm

Some fairly simple models of the world's oceans do simulate a rapid break down of the THC, when the density of the water in the North Atlantic Ocean is lowered by adding fresh water (rain) and/or by warming. Increased rainfall and warming over the North Atlantic are both expected as a result of increased greenhouse gas concentrations, and so it can be argued that global warming may cause a rapid collapse of the thermohaline circulation. The self-sustaining system described above is, however, much more complex in reality, and the more complete climate models, that take some of these complexities into account, generally simulate only a gradual weakening of the THC in response to global warming. Nevertheless, observations and palaeoclimate evidence both indicate that the THC has fluctuated both recently and in the distant past.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/thc/

 

[Andre]

There is a problem though with those "meltwater pulses", Here, are three studies that form a big conflict together around a sudden sea level rise that is known as “Melt Water Pulse 1A”. Curiously enough one person, Prof Clark of the Oregon Uni, (co)authored all three of these papers. So I wonder if he wonders about those problems. Let’s start with the most recent one.

Clark et al (2004), http://www.geo.oregonstate.edu/people/faculty/clark_publications/Clarketal.-Science-2004.pdf. Science 21 May 2004: 1141-1144

In which it is shown that clear geologic evidence exists that the great melting at the end of the ice ages started 19,000 years ago, which is a bit odd since the ice cores of Antarctica did not start to show any warming before 17,300 years ago, whilst the Greenland Ice cores waited until some 14,600 years ago. So Clark et al contend:

The initiation of warming at 19,000 years B.P. at Atlantic and Antarctic sites (Fig. 3, D to F) records this expected ocean response to the 19-ky MWP. In particular, we note that warming occurred at Antarctic sites before any substantial rise in atmospheric CO2 (23) and despite a gradual decrease in austral summer insolation.

We have two remarkable things here that the warming began some 2000 years before the CO2 rose, which is held responsible for a large role in that warming and second, that it was Antarctica that warmed and hence started to melt. Let’s keep that in mind when we look at a second study about that Meltwater Pulse 1A.

Weaver A.J. et al (2003) http://www.geo.oregonstate.edu/people/faculty/clark_publications/weaveretal.-science-2003.pdf 14 March 2003 Vol 299 Science pp1710 - 1713

Meltwater pulse 1A (mwp-1A) was a prominent feature of the last deglaciation, which led to a sea-level rise of about 20 meters in less than 500 years. Concurrent with mwp-1A was the onset of the Bølling-Allerød interstadial event (14,600 years before the present), which marked the termination of the last glacial period. Previous studies have been unable to reconcile a warm Northern Hemisphere with mwp-1A originating from the Laurentide or Fennoscandian ice sheets. With the use of a climate model of intermediate complexity, we demonstrate that with mwp-1A originating from the Antarctic Ice Sheet, consistent with recent sea-level fingerprinting inferences…

That’s pretty clear. If you scan the article you’ll see that Clark is amongst the authors and it’s also mentioned again that the warming in the south started as early as 19000 years ago. BTW this is not the only study that gives Meltwater Pulse 1A an Antarctic origin.

Also keep in mind that the current ice sheet of Greenland, central in the public interest, is good for a sea level rise of 7 meters. Apparently, Meltwater Pulse 1A was equivalent to the melting of almost three Greenland ice sheets within 500 years.

But now the third study:

Clark P.U. and Mix A.C (2002)http://www.geo.oregonstate.edu/people/faculty/clark_publications/clark&mix-qsr-2002.pdf, Quaternary Science Reviews 21 (2002) 1–7

We are interested in table 1 about the contribution of the several Ice sheets to the sea level rise. For Antarctica we see a series of 24,5 meters from the oldest studies to 14,0 meters in the more recent studies. Given the fact that there is hardly any tectonic post glacial rebound at Antarctica, that only land ice counts and that there is no room whatsoever to have 2-3 additional Greenland Ice sheets anywhere on the Antarctic continental shelf, 14 meters does seem to be quite a bit already. Now as the melting apparently started 19,000 years ago and lasted several thousand years as the end of the Ice age is marked at 11,600 years ago, you’d expect only millimetres per year from Antarctica but no, it was 20 meters in 500 years, meltwater pulse 1A.

Now this all happened in concert with the high spikes in Greenland, suggesting that it got warmer over there, hence suggesting that the thermohaline current increased in strength, which would also have followed from a sudden and rapid drop of the sea surface temps in the Caracio basin near Venezuela. Did the meltwater pulse increase the thermohaline current?

At this point it could be clear that the reality was much different.

There is a pet idea...

 

[nannoh]

Did the meltwater pulse increase the thermohaline current?

At this point it could be clear that the reality was much different.

There is a pet idea...

I'm not sure what your pet idea is other than the methane release in the eastern Atlantic. But several times there was mentioned the effect of freshwater (meltwater) not mixing with the denser saline waters of the ocean and particularly the Gulf Stream.

The whole effect of the fresh water incursion was to stablize the surface water and for it to stay on the surface. This is where it acts as a "lens" which transfers sunlight into deeper portions of the ocean than usual. And I imagine this lens would not only raise chlorophyll production and biomass numbers but also raise the temperature of the water at that depth. This may have actually agitated the thermohaline current making it stronger, sending it further north at a stronger pace.

 

[Andre]

I'm not sure what your pet idea is other than the methane release in the eastern Atlantic. But several times there was mentioned the effect of freshwater (meltwater) not mixing with the denser saline waters of the ocean and particularly the Gulf Stream.

The essence here is that the meltwater pulse 1A has no source. It's neither from the Northely ice sheet nor from Antarctica. But yet, it was about three Greenland ice sheets in a few decades. Now, out-of-the-box-thinkers would investigate the possiblility that the Meltwater pulse wasn't a meltwater pulse at all, wouldn't you think?

 

[nannoh]

The essence here is that the meltwater pulse 1A has no source. It's neither from the Northely ice sheet nor from Antarctica. But yet, it was about three Greenland ice sheets in a few decades. Now, out-of-the-box-thinkers would investigate the possiblility that the Meltwater pulse wasn't a meltwater pulse at all, wouldn't you think?

Yes.
Something very large entering the ocean causing displacement and consequently sea level rise. (But would also cause a nuclear winter after a global fire storm)

Or
an introduction of magma to the lithosphere causing displacement and the ocean's level rise.

Or methane (primary atmosphere) release?

19,000 you is in the middle/end of the LGM isn't it? Not much would be melting at that point. No Ice Age Floods causing levels to rise.

 

[Bystander]

(snip)The whole effect of the fresh water incursion was to stablize the surface water and for it to stay on the surface. This is where it acts as a "lens" which transfers sunlight into deeper portions of the ocean than usual.(snip)

Fresh water is 3% less dense than sea water --- it floats on the surface --- only so long as there is no mechanical agitation to mix it with seawater (no wind and wave motion --- the situation that holds beneath Arctic pack ice for Canadian shield runoff). Other than that, take a look at the Amazon for effects of 5-7 thousand km³/a fresh water runoff into salt water and "stabilization" of ocean surface. Fresh water does not act as a "lens" in any optical sense; it's generally silt laden (opaque), and is not magically transferring sunlight more deeply into the ocean; it is also laden with nutrients which do enhance biological activity, but, again, this is nothing particularly magical, confers no greater inertia upon water masses that are trivial in comparison to ocean mass to affect major changes upon ocean circulation.

 

[nannoh]

Fresh water is 3% less dense than sea water --- it floats on the surface --- only so long as there is no mechanical agitation to mix it with seawater (no wind and wave motion --- the situation that holds beneath Arctic pack ice for Canadian shield runoff). Other than that, take a look at the Amazon for effects of 5-7 thousand km³/a fresh water runoff into salt water and "stabilization" of ocean surface. Fresh water does not act as a "lens" in any optical sense; it's generally silt laden (opaque), and is not magically transferring sunlight more deeply into the ocean; it is also laden with nutrients which do enhance biological activity, but, again, this is nothing particularly magical, confers no greater inertia upon water masses that are trivial in comparison to ocean mass to affect major changes upon ocean circulation.

I'm not sure why you interpret lenses as magical.

However, I may have misinterpreted the use of the term "lens" in this passage from one of the links I provided above.

A conceptual model for the meltwater input into the system is described below. With solar heating, the snow and ice melts from the glaciers and land surfaces. Being less saline, the runoff enters the water column and creates a lens of fresher water on the sea surface. In the shallow nearshore waters, the resulting lens can be mixed from just a few meters down to 50 m in the water column. The nearshore stations exhibit pulses of freshwater input that occur throughout the growing season (Fig. 2). The salinity of the meltwater lens on the sea surface can be as low as 30.5, but averages around 33.2. Meltwater is more common in the late summer to early fall (January-March).

Under meltwater conditions, the initial radiance reflectance typically increases as more of the light is scattered upward by particles released into the water column. This increased turbidity is likely caused by the presence of highly scattering minerogenic particles that make the waters optically distinct from typical conditions. By station E, 3.7 km offshore, radiance reflectance is half of that at station B (Fig. 3A). Hence, meltwater particles sink out rapidly and are not carried away from shore.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/4/1790

 

[Bystander]

I'm not sure why you interpret lenses as magical.

I don't. "This is where it acts as a "lens" which transfers sunlight into deeper portions of the ocean than usual," said Nannoh.
(snip)

Tails don't wag dogs. Fresh water runoff doesn't dominate ocean circulation.

 

[Andre]

Yes.
Something very large entering the ocean causing displacement and consequently sea level rise. (But would also cause a nuclear winter after a global fire storm)

Or
an introduction of magma to the lithosphere causing displacement and the ocean's level rise.

Or methane (primary atmosphere) release?

19,000 you is in the middle/end of the LGM isn't it? Not much would be melting at that point. No Ice Age Floods causing levels to rise.

The big sea level rises around the equator (elsewhere it seems to be different) are basically identified in two areas, in the Carribean (Barbados) by dating deep corals, which supposedly have died because of getting too deep due to the rising water and the Indonesian area with inundated mangrove remains (Sunda shelf), following the same logic. In both locations a 20-25 vertical zone dates all the same, 14.5 Ka Cal BP which lead to the conclusion that this 25 meters would have to be flooded in a very short time.

There is the case, data, information and conclusions based on that. The idea is to skip the conclusion and review the data again, realizing that Occam Razor did not work. What else can kill corals and mangroves?

 

[nannoh]

The big sea level rises around the equator (elsewhere it seems to be different) are basically identified in two areas, in the Carribean (Barbados) by dating deep corals, which supposedly have died because of getting too deep due to the rising water and the Indonesian area with inundated mangrove remains (Sunda shelf), following the same logic. In both locations a 20-25 vertical zone dates all the same, 14.5 Ka Cal BP which lead to the conclusion that this 25 meters would have to be flooded in a very short time.

There is the case, data, information and conclusions based on that. The idea is to skip the conclusion and review the data again, realizing that Occam Razor did not work. What else can kill corals and mangroves?

Some sort of exponential bloom of bacteria and algae may have caused the die-off of coral.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060612221839.htm

Extreme volcanic and seismic activity would have a similar effect were it in the proximity of the coral population.

And, perhaps something killed off the tiny crabs that help prevent coral death. (there are going to be a milllion possibilities concerning this topic)

Tiny 'Housekeeper' Crabs Help Prevent Coral Death In South…
(via sciencedaily.com) – Tiny crabs that live in South Pacific coral help to prevent the coral from dying by providing regular cleaning "services" that may be critical to the life of coral reefs around the world, according to scientists from the University of California, Santa Barbara.

http://science.netscape.com/story/2006/10/25/tiny-housekeeper-crabs-help-prevent-coral-death-in-south-pacificI'm reminded of the ruins off the coast of Cuba that were pointed out earlier in this thread. They are reportedly 720 meters below sea level. The question is similar in this case - what caused a rise in sea level of this magnatude? This could be related to your query.

However, my initial reaction to the position of the ruins is that they are out of situ and somehow lost their ground and sank to that depth.

 

[nannoh]

I don't. "This is where it acts as a "lens" which transfers sunlight into deeper portions of the ocean than usual," said Nannoh.
(snip)

Tails don't wag dogs. Fresh water runoff doesn't dominate ocean circulation.

You may be right.

_________________

I would like to look at what effects the Ice Age Floods had on human populations.

If someone has the time they could post scientific data that explores population numbers along the coasts of the world at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and on how many of these people would have been displaced by a rapid sea level elevation. There is also the factor of the sheer volume of meltwater making its way to the sea across hundreds of miles of land and the effects this would have had on human habitation. These outbursts of meltwater were large scale "land tsunamis" and can easily be imagined as bringing devastating consequences to the established human communities of the time (14,000-10,000 years before present).

Time permitting I'm going to search out data to do with this factor of the Ice Age Floods as well.

 

[Bystander]

(snip)There is also the factor of the sheer volume of meltwater making its way to the sea across hundreds of miles of land and the effects this would have had on human habitation.

Examine the annual floods in the Nile and Amazon basins, and slightly less regular events for other major rivers. You'll find that such events create the habitable conditions for humans.

These outbursts of meltwater were large scale "land tsunamis" and can easily be imagined as bringing devastating consequences to the established human communities of the time (14,000-10,000 years before present).

Not "large scale," and not "devastating" --- the 2004 Xmas tsunami in the Indian Ocean presented the interesting contrast of modern tourist gawking at the stranded fish, and assorted "primitives" heading for high ground on their remote little islands.

Is there a point to your effort to make a mountain of the meltwater molehill?

 

[nannoh]

Examine the annual floods in the Nile and Amazon basins, and slightly less regular events for other major rivers. You'll find that such events create the habitable conditions for humans.



Not "large scale," and not "devastating" --- the 2004 Xmas tsunami in the Indian Ocean presented the interesting contrast of modern tourist gawking at the stranded fish, and assorted "primitives" heading for high ground on their remote little islands.

Is there a point to your effort to make a mountain of the meltwater molehill?

200,000 to 300,000 people died in the Indian Ocean tsunami. In contrast to today's world population that may not seem significant or "devastating". But, in contrast to the world population of 14,000 years ago, people would probably be convinced that their entire world had been wiped out.

My point is simply to explore the ramifications of the Ice Age Floods, be they hypothetical, theoretical or actual. If you think I am pushing biblical stories or alien intervention theories you are mistaken. I am simply fascinated by this rarely studied force of nature and how it has affected the Earth and ultimately mankind.

 

[Andre]

Some sort of exponential bloom of bacteria and algae may have caused the die-off of coral.

However, my initial reaction to the position of the ruins is that they are out of situ and somehow lost their ground and sank to that depth.

We're getting somewhere. So if we can establish that those large alleged sealevel rises were in fact another phenomenon that affected life around the sea levels of the equator.

To get the sunken city also in the picture we could speculate about global reactions to large ice sheets melting, perhaps leaving the Earth in unbalance, being too flat at the poles where the ice sheets no longer pressed the Earth down. Then of course we hypothese about glacial rebounce on a local scale. How about glacial rebounce at a global scale, the complete Earth resettling adjusting the shape to balance gravitational and centrifugal forces. This would also mean a lesser circumference for the equator as the Earth popped back to a more round shape. But water doesn't follow that logic as it always is close to the balanced position. Consequently, as the equator retracted, the water appeared to rise. Could something like that explain the meltwater pulse?

But it's only speculation, we can never know. If we want to prove it, we would need to melt Antarctica.

Another scenario indeed is the large scale methane hydrate events at the Amazone fan area, drastically changing ocean currents, sending massive amounts of cool deep (and indeed less salty) waters to the surface. The proxies confirm both had happened. Corals in not too far away Barbados may not have been happy with that while the global climate changes may have killed off the Mangroves of Indonesia's Sunda Shelf, as it also caused the African Humid Period as well as the extinction of large mammals in North America and Europe, judging to the datings.

So we need no massive flooding without a logical source whereas other scenarios could explain more phenomena.

 

[Bystander]

200,000 to 300,000 people died in the Indian Ocean tsunami. In contrast to today's world population that may not seem significant or "devastating". But, in contrast to the world population of 14,000 years ago, people would probably be convinced that their entire world had been wiped out.

"The entire worlds of 200-300k were 'wiped out.' " If you're interested in human reactions to natural disasters, you might want to start another thread in Social Sciences.

My point is simply to explore the ramifications of the Ice Age Floods, be they hypothetical, theoretical or actual.

They are geologically insignificant. Far larger volumes of soil and rock were moved by the glaciers preceeding the meltdown. Sea level effects on ocean circulation were far larger than those of freshwater runoff. Two and three kilometer thick ice sheets had huge effects on northern hemisphere tropospheric circulation.

If you think I am pushing biblical stories or alien intervention theories you are mistaken.

No one called you a YEC, or a UFO nut case. This thread would be in S&D, or locked were that the case.

I am simply fascinated by this rarely studied force of nature and how it has affected the Earth and ultimately mankind.

It is extensively studied; cirques, kettles, eskers, morraines, and all the other jargon of the ice ages fill texts and journals. It ain't the biggest thing to happen to the planet, or the species. Take a peek at the speculations about the correlations of the Toba event 70ka (?) back, and the mitochondrial DNA "population bottleneck."

 

[nannoh]

Take a peek at the speculations about the correlations of the Toba event 70ka (?) back, and the mitochondrial DNA "population bottleneck."

Thank you for the reference. This is what I'm looking for in terms of contributions to this thread.

Originally I hastily entitled this thread "Ice Age Floods Cause Mass Extinctions?" (as a question) when my main focus was really on the Glacial Flood phenomenon and how it had shaped the terrain of areas on this planet - small scale, large scale or otherwise - and wanted to find out more about it.

However, since the title remained uneditable I did allow some material about species extinction to enter into the discussion. Therefore, whether these floods dealt a blow to the populations and species of the elk or mastadon, humans or phytoplankton of the period the information remained significant to the topic(s) of this thread (as long as its title reads Ice Age Floods cause mass extinctions?). Thanks again for the reference.

 

[nannoh]

Here is some information about the Toba Event mentioned earlier by Bystander

Volcanic winter and accelerated glaciation following the Toba super-eruption

Michael R. Rampino*† & Stephen Self‡

* Earth Systems Group, Applied Science Department, New York University, New York, New York 10003, USA
† NASA, Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York, New York 10025, USA
‡ Department of Geology and Geophysics, School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, Hawaii 96822, USA

THE eruption of Toba in Sumatra 73,500 years ago was the largest known explosive volcanic event in the late Quaternary1. It could have lofted about 1015 g each of fine ash and sulphur gases to heights of 27–37 km, creating dense stratospheric dust and aerosol clouds. Here we present model calculations that investigate the possible climatic effects of the volcanic cloud. The increase in atmospheric opacity might have produced a 'volcanic winter'2—a brief, pronounced regional and perhaps hemispheric cooling caused by the volcanic dust—followed by a few years with maximum estimated annual hemispheric surface-temperature decreases of 3–5 °C. The eruption occurred during the stage 5a-4 transition of the oxygen isotope record, a time of rapid ice growth and falling sea level3. We suggest that the Toba eruption may have greatly accelerated the shift to glacial conditions that was already underway, by inducing perennial snow cover and increased sea-ice extent at sensitive northern latitudes. As the onset of climate change may have helped to trigger the eruption itself4, we propose that the Toba event may exemplify a more general climate–volcano feedback mechanism.

From
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v359/n6390/abs/359050a0.html

Sort of makes human influences on "global warming" or cooling look very insignificant.

What's interesting is that the authors point out that climate change during the period may have helped to contribute to the eruption of the Toba.
What I have seen mentioned again and again in my research on the Ice Age Floods is that during the recession of Glaciers there is the risk of great seismic activity because of Isostatic Lift. As the crust re-bounds, being freed of the weight of the ice, there are more avenues for magma to release into the lithosphere and there are more opportunities for subduction and resultant earthquakes and volcanos.

In fact it is the probable seismic activity created by isostatic lift (resulting from the melting of Glaciers and lifted weight) that speeds up the ice melt and creates the large (comparitively speaking) reserviors of meltwater. In turn, as ice dams melt these volumes of meltwater are released and could be very disruptive for any mammals, etc in the area!

 

[Bystander]

(snip)In fact it is the probable seismic activity created by isostatic lift (resulting from the melting of Glaciers and lifted weight) that speeds up the ice melt and creates the large (comparitively speaking) reserviors of meltwater. In turn, as ice dams melt these volumes of meltwater are released and could be very disruptive for any mammals, etc in the area!

--- and, the "isostatic lift" of seafloors resulting from sea level drop at the beginning of an ice age doesn't have any effect on seismic activity?

Cubic kilometers of molten rock per year contribute how much heat to the global budget? Will melt how much ice? Do the math --- don't take every new fact and leap to a wrong conclusion --- you are looking at another "molehill."

 

[Mk]

in the Carribean (Barbados) by dating deep corals, which supposedly have died because of getting too deep due to the rising water and the Indonesian area with inundated mangrove remains (Sunda shelf), following the same logic.

Wait, supposedly? They either died or they didn't—not supposedly.

the authors point out that climate change during the period may have helped to contribute to the eruption of the Toba.

That sounds absolutely preposterous to me, that the temperature on the surface would affect mantle circulation. Then again, I suppose significant isostatic changes could have an effect. No?

 

[nannoh]

--- and, the "isostatic lift" of seafloors resulting from sea level drop at the beginning of an ice age doesn't have any effect on seismic activity?

This is an interesting proposition. Are there any references that expand on the concept?

I've looked for papers regarding your statement primarily on the Google search engine and found no specific reference to Isostatic lift resulting from a lowered sea-level.

I did find some interesting papers

The most direct evidence of LGM ice vol-
ume comes from records of lower sea level.
But there are two difficulties: finding a well-
preserved and dateable record of LGM sea
level, and then distinguishing the isostatic
from the glacio-eustatic component of the
signal. Yokoyama et al.1 addressed these
difficulties by dating geological records on
the tectonically stable northern Australian
continental shelf, and deriving the glacio-
eustatic component by accounting for the
isostatic effect on the shelf caused by the sea-
level rise that accompanied deglaciation.
Their results resolve a long-standing con-
troversy. Furthermore, they suggest that the
LGM ice volume was relatively stable for at
least 3,000 years, implying that the ice sheets
approached isostatic and, perhaps, dynami-
cal equilibrium. Their analysis also indicates
that the LGM was terminated by a rapid rise
in sea level 19,000 years ago (Fig. 1). Such
an abrupt event may record a climatic or
other instability that triggered the demise
of the ice sheet.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...auses+Isostatic+lift&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=8

This study looks at the 19,000 yo period that supposedly produced the hypothesised rise in sea level that is blamed for killing off the coral reefs. Andre may be interested in having a go at this one

 

[Andre]

This study looks at the 19,000 yo period that supposedly produced the hypothesised rise in sea level that is blamed for killing off the coral reefs. Andre may be interested in having a go at this one

And this study indeed signals the major problems that the ice age theory faces. You may go back to my first Melt water pulse 1A post to see that the refs discuss the same problems.

About the ice sheet by volume. That's a hypothesis (Rutherford) based on the isotope ratios in the oceanic proxies. During evaporation most light isotopes leave the oceans and hence during ice sheet build up, the light meltwater not returning, the oceans get enriched with heavy isopes. You can quantify that and ultimately find that you'd have to cover virtually the complete Northern hemisphere polar circle area, to stuff all that ice away.

But there are two major problems with that idea. Firstly, the isotope spikes in the oceanic cores are as sharp as those in the ice cores, while the ocean is a very inert system, where it would take thousands of years for mixing the isotopes and for the bottom dwelling Benthic foraminifera would have reacted.

Secondly, during the Last Glacial Maximum, there wasn't any ice sheet on Siberia, not a trace, only a few locally enlarged glaciers, moreover the ice sheets did not wax and wane simultaneosly. When the ice was still growing in the east (Kara sea) some 19,000 years ago it had already melted in the west (Cordilleran ice sheets)

 

[Bystander]

This is an interesting proposition. Are there any references that expand on the concept?

I've looked for papers regarding your statement primarily on the Google search engine and found no specific reference to Isostatic lift resulting from a lowered sea-level.

I did find some interesting papers



http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...auses+Isostatic+lift&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=8

This study looks at the 19,000 yo period that supposedly produced the hypothesised rise in sea level that is blamed for killing off the coral reefs. Andre may be interested in having a go at this one

"Isostasy" isn't turned "off" for sea floors and "on" for continental plates; it's "on" all the time for the whole planet. The sea floor "rebound" (or lift) furnishes the volume to drive the continental "rebound" during melting --- it's called "conservation of mass."

 

[nannoh]

"Isostasy" isn't turned "off" for sea floors and "on" for continental plates; it's "on" all the time for the whole planet. The sea floor "rebound" (or lift) furnishes the volume to drive the continental "rebound" during melting --- it's called "conservation of mass."

The term is "hydro-isostacy". See page 10 of the link below

http://www.geography.wisc.edu/classes/geog527/sea_level.pdf

This ppt file has lots of info about glacio-isostacy and glacial eustasy as well as the oceanic/geological mechanism of hydro-isostacy which Bystander may be referring to.

 

[nannoh]

Ice Bergs make it to New Zealand (Nov 8/06)

Antartica has been losing some of its Ice Sheet to the ocean but the bergs are not melting like they usually do before they get to New Zealand. Does this suggest a cooler ocean than in the past? Or a cooler climate in the region?

http://au.news.yahoo.com/061108/2/11cfw.html

Its Mid-Summer in Australia and there was a snow storm and cold snap there this month.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789527.htm

 

[nannoh]

Walk The Flood Route

You'll be able to walk in the wake of an Ice Age Flood near Seattle soon with the opening of this trail being built by the National Parks Conservation Association. The more this phenomenon is studied the more recognizable the features will be in other geological settings. This should be a good trail to visit!

http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/1005-10.htm

 

[Skyhunter]

Antartica has been losing some of its Ice Sheet to the ocean but the bergs are not melting like they usually do before they get to New Zealand. Does this suggest a cooler ocean than in the past? Or a cooler climate in the region?

It is mostly a function of the oceans currents. The heat in southern hemisphere is carried north by the currents. There was a good article in nature (unavailable now unless your a member )

Check this thread for links.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=143165