If gas volume remains constant, it can do work?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a gas can do work when its volume remains constant, particularly in scenarios involving a membrane separating two gas regions with different pressures. Participants explore the implications of gas behavior under these conditions, touching on concepts of thermodynamics, equilibrium, and non-equilibrium processes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe a scenario with a membrane separating high and low pressure gas, suggesting that the gas can do work despite the overall volume being constant.
  • Others argue that while the total volume may be constant, the volumes of the two gas regions change, which complicates the analysis of work done.
  • A participant mentions that the process described resembles free expansion, where no work is done due to the lack of opposing forces in the vacuum.
  • Another viewpoint emphasizes that the process is not quasi-static, and thus the equation for work done (dw=pdV) may not apply.
  • Some participants reference the first law of thermodynamics, suggesting that if no heat enters or leaves the system, then the internal energy remains constant, leading to no work being done.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of choosing different systems for analysis, with some suggesting that work can be done depending on how the system is defined.
  • Concerns are raised about the definition of isochoric processes, with some participants questioning whether non-equilibrium processes can be classified as isochoric.
  • One participant asserts that the Wikipedia definition of isochoric processes may not adequately capture the complexities of gas behavior in non-equilibrium states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the ability of gas to do work under constant volume conditions. There is no consensus on whether the described processes can be classified as isochoric or if work is indeed done.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of equilibrium and non-equilibrium processes, as well as unresolved mathematical interpretations related to work done in thermodynamic systems.

  • #31
Chestermiller said:
Did you really think that, if the initial and final volumes of a system are the same, that is equivalent to a constant volume process in a rigid container?

Chet
The Stirling engine is a rigid container. Geometry (volume) of the container remains constant for the process, initial, during, and final, even though the piston is reciprocating. Gas density is moved from end to end.
Hence, Yes. But not on a closed system.
If gas volume remains constant, it can do work?
 
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  • #32
Nuke said:
The Stirling engine is a rigid container. Geometry (volume) of the container remains constant for the process, initial, during, and final, even though the piston is reciprocating. Gas density is moved from end to end.
Hence, Yes. But not on a closed system.
If gas volume remains constant, it can do work?
Nuke,

I think you understood the context of the OP's original question, and that he was referring to a closed system in which the volume of the system remains constant throughout the process. I also think you understand that in a stirling engine, the movement of the piston causes the volume of the closed system and the volume of the gas to change with time over each cycle. So the only thing I can conclude is either that you were trying to mislead and confuse the OP, or you were trying to show everyone how smart you think you are by bringing up this example that does not even match the context of the original question. But, it is not very smart to get into a game of words with a Mentor. I am issuing you some Warning points and am closing this thread to further responses. In the future, please use better judgement.
 
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