I'm having trouble understanding Lorentz transforms

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the understanding and implications of Lorentz transformations in the context of special relativity. Participants explore how these transformations relate the coordinates of events in different inertial frames, particularly focusing on the perceived discrepancies and interpretations of time dilation and length contraction between observers in different frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether Lorentz transformations represent what is actually happening in the primed reference frame or merely what the non-primed frame perceives.
  • There is concern about the algebraic consistency when transforming coordinates back and forth between frames, with some participants expressing confusion over discrepancies in expected results.
  • Participants discuss the implications of time dilation and length contraction, with some suggesting that these effects lead to contradictions in perceived simultaneity and measurements between different frames.
  • One participant raises a scenario involving three observers, questioning whether transformations between each pair would yield consistent results or lead to contradictions.
  • Another participant presents a specific example involving measurements of a rod's length, arguing that the transformations yield contradictory results depending on the direction of the transformation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of Lorentz transformations and their implications. There is no consensus on whether the transformations provide consistent results when applied in both directions or how to interpret the effects of time dilation and length contraction across different frames.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in their understanding, including assumptions about simultaneity and the conditions under which measurements are made. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties and challenges in reconciling different perspectives on relativistic effects.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying special relativity, particularly students grappling with the implications of Lorentz transformations and the conceptual challenges they present in understanding time and space from different frames of reference.

  • #31
davidbenari said:
I don't see how relativity of simultaneity is important

Maybe this video will be useful:

 
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  • #32
davidbenari said:
But equation with t'a=t'b yields something of the form x'<x. While equation with ta=tb yields something of the form x<x'. Why isn't this contradictory?
In the case of time dilation, both observers will consider the other one's clock slow. This sounds like a contradiction until you realize that statements about an observer's point of view are really statements about numbers assigned by a coordinate system that we associate with his motion. Since the two observers move in different ways, we associate different coordinate systems with their motions. So there's nothing inherently contradictory about a disagreement between two observers describing the same thing in different ways. Look at an object that's now on your right. An observer at your location facing the opposite direction would say that the object is to the left. This is clearly not a contradiction.

Further, in the typical SR scenarios, the two observers (and their coordinate systems) aren't describing the same thing. In the case of time dilation, A is describing a segment of B's world line and B is describing a segment of A's world line. In the case of length contraction, they are describing different line segments (the red and blue lines in my diagram) in the rod's world sheet.
 
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