Indoor vs Outdoor Cat Debate: split from derailed thread

[Cyrus]

Why does nobody question that dogs aren't allowed to express their natural behaviors of running in packs and chasing rabbits and roaming the entire neighborhood? Because they've come to realize that's not the best way to care for a dog or to be a good neighbor. It's time for cat owners to realize the same thing.

Because loose packs of dog's can attack and\or kill people moonbear. Cat's cannot.

While that was a great lesson in zoology, I fail to see any point to it. You call it a "DOMESTIC cat." So tell me, does that change the fact that it is an animal? Can you name me one animal found to live exclusively in peoples houses?

Or, as the UC Davis site pointed out, what if your cat is rummaging through the trash someone has out and eats a dead rat or mouse that was killed with rat poison?

The trash is collected 2? times a week. People put their trash in a trash can. If a group of cat's tried, they could not knock the trash can over and get into the trash. Last time I checked, most people put things like dead rat's in trash bag's inside the trash can because they don't want the dead rat just lying inside the trash can uncovered.

 

[Moonbear]

Because loose packs of dog's can attack and\or kill people moonbear. Cat's cannot.

While that was a great lesson in zoology, I fail to see any point to it. You call it a "DOMESTIC cat." So tell me, does that change the fact that it is an animal? Can you name me one animal found to live exclusively in peoples houses?

So, we should let the pet hamsters and canaries roam too? I'm sure they'd like it, right? Afterall, those species are still found in the wild. Besides, that was YOUR argument, not mine, that cats should be allowed outside because that's where they are naturally found. I just pointed out that's NOT where they are naturally found, and that your argument doesn't hold. I call it a domestic cat, because that is what it is called. I even clarified by showing the species name, so you can see how (un)related it is to wild cats.

And, I have not taken the position that cats cannot be permitted outside, only that they should be supervised and a proper enclosure should be built, or they should be put on a leash, so that they do not escape the owner's yard. Here's information about different types of enclosures you can build in your yard for your cats. http://cats.about.com/od/outdoorenclosures/

And yes, being a domestic cat makes a difference. That means humans have bred the cats to be dependent on humans. Thus, we have a greater responsibility for their care than we would for a wild animal that we did not make dependent upon us.

The trash is collected 2? times a week. People put their trash in a trash can. If a group of cat's tried, they could not knock the trash can over and get into the trash. Last time I checked, most people put things like dead rat's in trash bag's inside the trash can because they don't want the dead rat just lying inside the trash can uncovered.

Now you're just being stubborn. Not everyone puts trash out in cans. Plenty of people just put it out in trash bags. Trash is collected once a week in most places, but how frequently it's collected really shouldn't matter, the dead rat only has to be sitting out a short time for the cat to find it. You really seem to just not care, and I can't understand it. Why don't you try actually providing some evidence, other than your cat mind-reading ability, that it's actually healthier for the cat to be outside. I don't see you actually providing any contradictory evidence to that of the experts I've presented. Without evidence, I'm not buying your opinion.

 

[FredGarvin]

We have our two guys and they are both indoor cats. I know that they want to go out sometimes, but they get over it pretty quickly. There are a few neighborhood cats around and I really wish that their owners would not let them out. They know exactly where all of our feeders are and use them to their advantage.

The best part is when we are in the vet's office and he asks if they are outdoor cats. When we say NO he says good. We don't have to worry about 80% of most cat problems out there. That is the number one reason in my book.

 

[hypatia]

My last outdoor cat I had to scrape off the street with a snow shovel.
Both my cats are indoor, but enjoy a walk outside on there harness often. There is a major wild cat problem here. They trap them and kill them, hundreds of them every month. So outdoor cats really need their collars with ID tags on them.

 

[Cyrus]

So, we should let the pet hamsters and canaries roam too? I'm sure they'd like it, right? Afterall, those species are still found in the wild.

If you want to, sure. But I doubt you will ever see them again once they leave.

I just pointed out that's NOT where they are naturally found, and that your argument doesn't hold. I call it a domestic cat, because that is what it is called. I even clarified by showing the species name, so you can see how (un)related it is to wild cats.

NONSENSE! What about a mule, moonbear? By your logic, mules are domestic animals. I guess we should keep them locked up in the stable all day and night!

And, I have not taken the position that cats cannot be permitted outside, only that they should be supervised and a proper enclosure should be built, or they should be put on a leash, so that they do not escape the owner's yard. Here's information about different types of enclosures you can build in your yard for your cats.

No thanks, I am not going to read/build about any enclosures for my cat.

And yes, being a domestic cat makes a difference. That means humans have bred the cats to be dependent on humans. Thus, we have a greater responsibility for their care than we would for a wild animal that we did not make dependent upon us.

Do you realize how many things in nature were bred over the thousands of years by human intervention? Things you consider to be 'wild' animal/plant species? Utter, nonsense.

Now you're just being stubborn. Not everyone puts trash out in cans. Plenty of people just put it out in trash bags. Trash is collected once a week in most places

Really? Is that a fact? Have you been to my neighborhood to see how often the trash is collected? People here have enough sense to put their trash in trash bins. I would hope they have that kind of sense where you live too. And no, I have not once seen any neighborhood cats rummaging through trash.

Why don't you try actually providing some evidence, other than your cat mind-reading ability, that it's actually healthier for the cat to be outside. I don't see you actually providing any contradictory evidence to that of the experts I've presented. Without evidence, I'm not buying your opinion.

Was I not clear in telling you about my experience with my cat for 16 years moonbear? Do you think I am going to throw away 16 years of experience that I know has never been a problem because you show me a few links?

...Yeah, ok

 

[Astronuc]

Ideally, cat's should be free to come and go. However,

in an urban or suburban area, a cat will likely be killed by a car. I can't tell the number of cats I see dead on the roadside in our area. I had to bury one last October because some idiot was speeding a long the road (we live on a busy street) and hit a cat - and the B******* didn't even stop. I had to go outside about midnight and pick the poor cat off the road.

My mother's favorite cat got hit twice by cars. The first time, she was severely injured and someone actually brought her to our house. The second time was fatal. And my mom also managed to back over of her cats.


We keep our cats indoors for two reasons: 1. busy street and 2. ticks (more so than fleas). Our youngest cat showed up under our front porch on Halloween night 3 years ago. She was probably several weeks old - and weighed less than a kg. She was covered in fleas (~100) and ticks (~40, including mating pairs). She would have died in days if we had not taken here in.

I'm with hypatia and Moonbear on this.

 

[Cyrus]

If you live in an area that is dangerous to the cat, then you should not let it go out. That's just good judgement. But if you do live in an area where they can go out safely, then they should. I would not let my cat stay out all night when the fox was known to be around. That's just common sense. But that does not mean you should not take your cat's to an open area and let them run around for a few hours. The same way people should take their dogs to an open field and let the dog run loose for a couple hours. Not just going for a small daily walk with a leash.

 

[DaveC426913]

There is a compromise between the two opposing points of view here.

Cyrus, you do have the right to look after your pet as you see fit (presuming it is cared-for and looked after etc.). If you want to let it out at night or during the day, fine. While Moonbear has strong feelings about how pets should be cared for, she recognizes that, legally, she has no right to impose her beliefs upon you or your pets.

HOWEVER, But you ARE responsible for your pets, even when they go out. You do NOT have the right to allow your animal to wander into someone else's yard, and wreak whatever havoc it can. They do wreck gardens, they do kill wildlife, they do chase away birds, they do a number of things that you, as a neighbour have no right to inflict - or allow to be inflicted - upon your neighbours.

True, this is virtually impossible to enforce, but YOU must recognize that, to be a good neighbour in the very close quarters of a city, with neighbours only a dozen yards in any direction, you must act to ensure you do not infringe upon the rights of your neighbours (and failing that, you'd better be pretty contrite about it when it happens). To Suggest that you have no need to oversee your animals, or respect your neighbours' rights is to act irresponsibly.

Your freedom ends the moment it potentially infringes upon someone else's.




And Cyrus...
consider dialing back the theatrics a little. You're looking a little schoolyard-playgroundish.

 

[Evo]

I live in a somewhat rural setting and there is a large transient stray/feral cat population. I feed the strays and take advantage of the local humane society that will spay for $35 and neuter for $15, and that includes vaccinations. I've spent a fortune catching these cats and getting them fixed then returning them back into the area. People don't complain about cats out here because there are fields and they keep the mouse population under control. Of course I have now attracted a family of possums. They love cat food.

Out here it is more likely a cat will get kicked by a horse than hit by a car. I have had two cats treated for concussions caused by horses.

If you live in an apartment or in an area with traffic, I agree the cat should be kept inside. It is for the cat's own saftey.

My complaint is dog owners that can't keep their dogs locked up. Even though we have no leash laws out here, people are pretty good about keeping their dogs fenced in, however some do tend to escape. They will totally destroy anything you've planted, chew the bulbs, and leave dinner plate size calling cards in your yard. But I can't blame a person if they are making efforts to keep the dog sequestered. A neighbor used to let his dog run loose all the time and it would come chew a hole through my fence and liberate my dogs on a dialy basis. One day his dog killed two beautiful, sweet, kittens. That afternoon his dog mysteriously left town. It wasn't really his dog, I had found it half dead, and nursed it back to health and then he decided to adopt it, but he let him run loose all the time. A big hunting dog, purebred, I'm sure the new owners took better care of it.

 

[russ_watters]

I really object to people letting their cats out to roam the neighborhood.

Different strokes...

My mother grew up on a farm and all of the cats she gets are from that farm. They are outdoor cats, right from birth (evolution works fast on a farm). So for them, it isn't so much a question of whether or not you make them an outdoor or indoor cat, but whether or not you choose to confine an outdoor cat. To me, that seems mean.

Your neighbors who don't own or want cats don't appreciate them using their yard for litter boxes.

The vast majority (which isn't much anyway - a 7 pound cat is not a 70 pound dog) goes into their own yard.

Plus, they're destructive to the local wildlife (that's a BIG reason I HATED when the neighbors let their cats roam...they would come in MY yard and scare the birds away that I want to enjoy, and they killed the chipmunk that I was happy to let live in my yard. )

Heh - one person's "destruction of the local wildlife" is another person's pest control. Yeah, even the bunnies and squirrels are pests if you grew up on a farm.

If you take the responsibility of adopting a pet, you should care for the pet and not leave it to fend for itself outdoors.

Fend for themselves!? You're a biologist! Cats are natural predators. Locking them in a house all day is caging them.

And, if I saw a cat without a collar, I DID call to have them picked up as strays (we did have quite a few strays in addition to the pets...probably because the non-neutered pets were allowed to roam too).

My mother currently has her first "roamer". Most cats she has had rarely left a 100yd radius from their house, but now she has one that disappears for as much as 5 days at a time. When I lived at home and went out running, I'd occasionally pass it a mile away.

The cat knows (and cavorts) with my parents' friends. Once, they were playing bridge down the street with some friends in a sunroom. The screen door was open and the cat just waltzed in and made herself at home. The neighbors all know that cat and some even feed her.

Yes, that cat has a collar.

 

[Moonbear]

Russ, have you actually read any of the links I've provided? I am a biologist, yes, which is why I can state with great conviction that cats are NOT a natural part of the ecosystem into which they are being released. They are also indiscriminate killers when they go out, they aren't just killing rats or starlings (an introduced "pest" species of bird), they kill whatever they can catch, even if it's an endangered species. Fledgling and ground nesting birds are especially susceptible. Keeping a cat in a house is hardly caging them (besides, no animal should be kept in a totally barren cage...even for pets typically kept in cages, you should build it in a way that it provides an enriched environment...tunnels, places to hide, plenty of toys appropriate for the pet, not just those that amuse the owner, and that allows all of the pet's normal behaviors to be expressed). Again, I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs. They have been domesticated; they are not wild, natural predators...they do not fend for themselves well without human intervention. Even the feral populations don't do all that well if they don't find a kind human to put food out for them.

I will not even bother repeating myself again about cats defecating. I'm not doing a size comparison here...a 7 lb chihauha digging up and defecating in gardens is no different than a 7 lb cat in size and destruction, except the cat is more certain to do the digging than the dog. Don't try making the argument about size, when that has nothing to do with.

Evo, before I started into this debate, honestly, I thought as you do, that as long as you live out someplace rural, where your neighbors are few and far between, and traffic really isn't an issue, you can let your cat out if that's what you choose...it's not infringing on your neighbor's property, and, like Russ, I thought, a "working cat" that is around for pest control rather than as a pet out on a farm, would be okay. But, as I've read more, it really seems they have the worst life of all cats. They get more parasites from the rodents they eat and fleas they pick up, on their forays, they encounter other wild animals, not just the little ones they're killing, and get into fights that leave them with serious wounds and infections, are left exposed to the elements and unhealthy/unsafe temperature extremes.

As for the feral cat population, it seems there's really quite a debate ongoing right now about how to deal with them. Generally, your approach is what has been common practice for some time...put out food, trap, neuter, and release. The debate arises for a couple of reasons. First, when you put out food, more cats are attracted to stay in an area, and that leads to growth of the population, more frequent conflicts between cats, and better success in reproducing for those you haven't caught to get neutered yet. The other, really big reason, is that nobody is collecting those cats on a regular basis to provide ongoing veterinary care, it's usually just a one-shot deal when you get them neutered. That leaves them not only susceptible to, but major carriers of, numerous diseases that affect both the feral population of cats and domestic cats they encounter. Cats left roaming in rural areas had a fairly high incidence of FIV. Rabies infections in roaming cats (feral or strays) are also a pretty high risk (again, nobody is getting them taken in for regular rabies shots). I even learned something new in the process...skunks can be asymptomatic carriers of rabies, unlike other animals that get sick and die fairly quickly after infection. It seems it's the skunk-cat interactions putting them most at risk for rabies. I know we do go to that effort with our farm cats here, of rounding them all up once a year to get them appropriate veterinary care, but the overall impression I get on non-research farms is that farm cats are not generally treated even that well (and once a year still means they aren't getting any preventative medicines for worms, and there certainly are worms for them to get out on a farm...those rodents they're supposed to be controlling are the primary vector for those worms, along with other diseases, which is of course why we're trying to control the rodent population...but, doesn't it seem even a bit troubling that we'll expect cats to come into contact with those vectors when we try so hard to keep them away from our livestock?)

This is the AVMA position statement on free-roaming abandoned, and feral cats:
http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/feral_cats.asp

And, here is another site that discusses TNR programs from a bit of a pro and con perspective that gives some insight to why it's controversial.
http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn03/spring03/pages/feralcats2.htm

And, Evo, really, why is it that you get upset if a dog escapes and digs up your garden, but don't think people should be upset when a neighbor's cat digs up their garden or scent marks all over it with urine? That's all I'm asking, is that cat owners give their neighbors the same consideration as dog owners are required by law to give. I'm also trying to take it a step further and help show the cat lovers here that "traditional" views of what is good for cats is inaccurate, and that the experts are recommending they be kept indoors or in outdoor enclosures in your yard, not just for good neighbor relations, but for the health and well-being of the cats.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, have you actually read any of the links I've provided?

No, I had just gotten up when I posted and I haven't gotten a chance to read the thread yet. I will, though...

 

[DaveC426913]

What about a mule, moonbear? By your logic, mules are domestic animals. I guess we should keep them locked up in the stable all day and night!

Well... yes. What an odd thing to say.

If, by "...locked up in the stable..." you actually mean "restricted from exiting the owner's property except with direct human supervision".

By all means, feel free to let your cats loose, provided you ensure they cannot leave the property without your direct supervision.


Do mules freely to roam the cityscape and countryside where you live?

 

[Moonbear]

Well... yes. What an odd thing to say.

If, by "...locked up in the stable..." you actually mean "restricted from exiting the owner's property except with direct human supervision".

By all means, feel free to let your cats loose, provided you ensure they cannot leave the property without your direct supervision.


Do mules freely to roam the cityscape and countryside where you live?

Thank you, I hadn't even seen that particular comment.

Indeed, when the neighboring farm had a few cattle escape, I called the police (it was right after I moved in, so didn't know who the farm owner was to call them directly, or else I'd have done that...but I know from experience that the cops know how to contact farm owners when animals escape; I've gotten that call in the middle of the night from a farm manager informing me the cops just called and we have goats that have escaped, I have to come get them ...and they hadn't even left university property yet, but we weren't going to wait for them to do so). It is the owner's responsibility to keep the livestock on their own property. Had the cattle that escaped caused damage to the property here, the farmer would have been responsible for it. And, the reason I called the police the moment I saw the cattle rather than taking more time seeing if I could track down the farm owner/manager is that it could have been much worse had one of the cattle wandered down to the road. It's not a very busy road, but nonetheless, you don't want someone coming around a curve to find a cow in the middle of the road.

Similarly, if your neighbor is raising chickens or quail, and one or several get loose and wander onto your property, and your cat has a tasty poultry snack, it's not your fault but the fault of the person who owns the fowl for letting them escape (indeed, if one of those quail gave your cat a good peck or scratch before the cat killed it, the owner of the quail would be responsible for your vet bills). On the other hand, if your cat (or dog) gets onto their property and kills or injures their fowl, you are responsible for the damages. Of course, when you just let the cat out with no ID, it makes it a lot harder to track down the owner and hold them accountable.

 

[Moonbear]

If you live in an area that is dangerous to the cat, then you should not let it go out. That's just good judgement. But if you do live in an area where they can go out safely, then they should. I would not let my cat stay out all night when the fox was known to be around.

And how do you determine it is safe? When you knew the fox was around, you didn't let the cat out. What about the week before, when the fox was around and you didn't know it? Was it any safer that week than after you were informed of the presence of the fox?

That's just common sense. But that does not mean you should not take your cat's to an open area and let them run around for a few hours.

Nobody said you shouldn't, if you can find an appropriate open area where you can keep an eye on your cat and they can't escape that designated area.

The same way people should take their dogs to an open field and let the dog run loose for a couple hours.

That is the purpose of dog parks, with fences. Perhaps you should encourage your local parks officials to designate a similar type of park for cats, with an appropriate covering so they can't climb out and escape (a regular fence isn't enough). Allowing a dog to run loose in a completely open field is inappropriate as well, because of the risk of escape, and more importantly, because it violates leash laws, unless you are still on private property and have permission to be there.

Not just going for a small daily walk with a leash.

Irresponsible dog ownership does not justify irresponsible cat ownership. Dogs do need more exercise than a small daily walk as well, which is why people who own dogs either take them to dog parks, when they live in a city, where there is fenced space for them to run and play, or wait until they have a home with a large enough back yard that they can fence and allow the dog to run around within an enclosed backyard. Those dog owners who keep a dog in a small apartment and only take it for short walks to urinate and defecate are not responsible pet owners either. About the only difference you'd need between an outdoor cat enclosure and an outdoor dog run is that you need to ensure the top is entirely closed for cats...with dogs, you just need to provide a partial roof where they can get out of the elements (shade from the sun or shelter from the rain), while with cats, the non-shaded area should have some form of wire mesh, such as inexpensive chicken wire, so they can't climb out. Of course, it's probably even easier to build for cats since you don't need to excavate around it and bury the fencing into the ground...dogs are more likely to dig under while cats will climb over.

I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the innovative folks around here could figure out a way to design a fence that would keep the cat from climbing over it...perhaps with a top that tilts inward and made of a slick material the cat can't climb? Then they could have the full run of your backyard, and all the birds can nest in my yard.

 

[Astronuc]

A third reason that we keep out cats indoors is that we have many types of birds in our yard - chickadees, titmice, nuthatches, various finches, orioles, cardinals, mourning doves, an occasional eastern bluebird, recently a variety of woodpeckers. Our cats, particularly the female, would be catching birds everyday if they could. It's enough they bring us a mouse from the garage.

So we also protect birds from out cats.

Now we occasionally have a peregrine falcon visit our property, and various other falcons or small hawks. To see one of these in action is incredible!

At night we have owls, who tend to be pretty noisy between 0200-0400. But they are very cool.

 

[Cyrus]

They are also indiscriminate killers when they go out, they aren't just killing rats or starlings (an introduced "pest" species of bird), they kill whatever they can catch, even if it's an endangered species.

I am just stunned by your absurdity. Cat's do not go around killing things 24-7. If you had a cat or been around one, you would know this. I have seen birds fly up to my cat. If she's in no mood for chasing a bird, she WILL NOT chase a bird. We have PLENTY of birds and field mice in my back yard. Based on your, faulty, argument, I should see a pile of dead animals around my house right? But I don't. I should see a sharp decline due to the other cats in the neighborhood, but I DONT..

So, should I believe you, or should I go with what I actually see and know to be true? Sorry, I'm going to have to go with what I see.

But, as I've read more, it really seems they have the worst life of all cats. They get more parasites from the rodents they eat and fleas they pick up, on their forays, they encounter other wild animals, not just the little ones they're killing, and get into fights that leave them with serious wounds and infections, are left exposed to the elements and unhealthy/unsafe temperature extremes.

You can read about cat's all you want to. Read enough books about living in the city all day moonbear, I'm sure you will soon find yourself locked in your house too...

and that the experts are recommending they be kept indoors or in outdoor enclosures in your yard, not just for good neighbor relations, but for the health and well-being of the cats.

Any expert that tells you an animal is better of locked inside a house is a fool and should not be called an expert in anything related to animals.

And how do you determine it is safe? When you knew the fox was around, you didn't let the cat out. What about the week before, when the fox was around and you didn't know it? Was it any safer that week than after you were informed of the presence of the fox?

I use my judgement, moonbear. It's my cat, and its my call. Was it any safer, probably not. Was it a concern? Yeah. Did I lock my cat indoors, NOPE! I am not going to lock my cat inside the house just because of a fox. The fox never bothered her, and she never bothered the fox. Why do you insist on telling me things that are simply NOT TRUE in my case??

Nobody said you shouldn't, if you can find an appropriate open area where you can keep an eye on your cat and they can't escape that designated area.

Where does that exist? Fantasy land? An open area where a cat can't escape. An open area, sort of like...my back yard?

Perhaps you should encourage your local parks officials to designate a similar type of park for cats, with an appropriate covering so they can't climb out and escape (a regular fence isn't enough).

Nope, not going to. I find that to be silly and a waste of taxpayers money. My backyard will do just fine.

Allowing a dog to run loose in a completely open field is inappropriate as well, because of the risk of escape, and more importantly, because it violates leash laws, unless you are still on private property and have permission to be there.

It violates the leash law, big deal. Who is the dog going to bother? The imaginary police man standing in the middle of the field? NOT ONCE has any dog in the neighborhood had a problem in the field. I guess its just years of more luck, eh?

About the only difference you'd need between an outdoor cat enclosure and an outdoor dog run is that you need to ensure the top is entirely closed for cats

So now my backyard looks like what? An internment camp with 10 foot walls and fenced roofs, tunnels, and barbed wire? Should I put a spotlight to track the cat during the night as well?

I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the innovative folks around here could figure out a way to design a fence that would keep the cat from climbing over it...perhaps with a top that tilts inward and made of a slick material the cat can't climb? Then they could have the full run of your backyard, and all the birds can nest in my yard.

I would honestly hope the people here have better things to do with their time.

 

[Cyrus]

Now we occasionally have a peregrine falcon visit our property, and various other falcons or small hawks. To see one of these in action is incredible!

At night we have owls, who tend to be pretty noisy between 0200-0400. But they are very cool.

That is the fastest brid on earth. That should be something to see. They can spot mice and small birds a mile away and swoop in on them for dinner. Their talons are razor sharp, as is their beak.

http://faculty.washington.edu/lmandel/peregrine%20falcon3.JPG

We have a few owls. They go hoo-hoo-hoot all night. It can be annoying at times, but I they are well worth it.

We have these cool vultures that have wingspans of up to 3-4 feet. They are cool to see gliding around.

http://www.project-himalaya.com/images/bearded-vulture.jpg

 

[Moonbear]

I am just stunned by your absurdity. Cat's do not go around killing things 24-7. If you had a cat or been around one, you would know this. I have seen birds fly up to my cat. If she's in no mood for chasing a bird, she WILL NOT chase a bird. We have PLENTY of birds and field mice in my back yard. Based on your, faulty, argument, I should see a pile of dead animals around my house right? But I don't. I should see a sharp decline due to the other cats in the neighborhood, but I DONT..

Now I'm convinced you're not even reading what I'm posting. I never argued they kill 24/7, but the time when you said you are letting your cat out, dusk to dawn, is when birds are most vulnerable in their nests, and when cats are most likely to be hunting. You've already acknowledged you don't know where your cat goes or what it does while away from your property, so what are you basing your information on? The birds it decides to bring home? What about those it just leaves behind while it sees another to go hunting?

Any expert that tells you an animal is better of locked inside a house is a fool and should not be called an expert in anything related to animals.

Again, read what I've actually written, not what you feel like arguing about that has nothing to do with the discussion. Or, maybe those without expertise who think they know about that which they do not know...well, I know what I call that.

I use my judgement, moonbear. It's my cat, and its my call. Was it any safer, probably not. Was it a concern? Yeah. Did I lock my cat indoors, NOPE! I am not going to lock my cat inside the house just because of a fox. The fox never bothered her, and she never bothered the fox. Why do you insist on telling me things that are simply NOT TRUE in my case??

Yet.

Where does that exist? Fantasy land? An open area where a cat can't escape. An open area, sort of like...my back yard?

Yes, in your back yard, not my backyard. If you don't ever allow your cat beyond your yard, that's wonderful, that's what I'm suggesting people do. That, however, is NOT what most people who have indoor-outdoor cats do, they let them wander the entire neighborhood, at will. And the problem I have is not with those who keep their cats on their own property, but those who allow them to wander onto their neighbor's property, or public property.

Nope, not going to. I find that to be silly and a waste of taxpayers money. My backyard will do just fine.

Excellent! Then we agree, your backyard is just fine.

Next time you take your cat to the vet for a regular checkup, ask him/her about the risk vs benefit of allowing a cat outdoors. But, since I see you have no interest in actually reading what I'm writing or the links I've been providing, I just hope your cat is lucky enough not to suffer for it.

 

[Cyrus]

so what are you basing your information on? The birds it decides to bring home? What about those it just leaves behind while it sees another to go hunting?

And where did you get information that my cat is doing that? Did you follow my cat around at night to see if she was doing that? You are specuating here just as much as I am...

Again, read what I've actually written, not what you feel like arguing about that has nothing to do with the discussion. Or, maybe those without expertise who think they know about that which they do not know...well, I know what I call that.

I am sitting in my chair STUNNED that you agree that confining an animal is good for its health...(And I don't want to hear your whole, "build it an ourdoor prison camp in your backyard" story again, that is NOT equivalent, and you know it)

Yes, in your back yard, not my backyard. If you don't ever allow your cat beyond your yard, that's wonderful, that's what I'm suggesting people do.

Nah, uh uh. That is NOT consistent with what you said before! And I quote:

Keeping a cat in a house is hardly caging them (besides, no animal should be kept in a totally barren cage...even for pets typically kept in cages, you should build it in a way that it provides an enriched environment...tunnels, places to hide, plenty of toys appropriate for the pet, not just those that amuse the owner, and that allows all of the pet's normal behaviors to be expressed).

If that's your opinon, how can you also say the following?

And, I have not taken the position that cats cannot be permitted outside, only that they should be supervised and a proper enclosure should be built, or they should be put on a leash, so that they do not escape the owner's yard.

You said AND which mean's I should supervise my cat while she's in her backyard prison camp.

Then you said:

Evo, before I started into this debate, honestly, I thought as you do, that as long as you live out someplace rural, where your neighbors are few and far between, and traffic really isn't an issue, you can let your cat out if that's what you choose...it's not infringing on your neighbor's property, and, like Russ, I thought, a "working cat" that is around for pest control rather than as a pet out on a farm, would be okay.But, as I've read more, it really seems they have the worst life of all cats.

It really seems, or you know for a fact that it is? If you own a cat, and you let it outside, and it comes back all scrappy from a fight with ticks, then you should have enough sense to know better not to let that happen twice. But that is not true all the time and it is NOT true for all cases. So don't extrapolate that to be all inclusive, please!

Again, I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs.

So, in response to your comment about letting your cat roam in an open area, i.e. my own back yard:

If you don't ever allow your cat beyond your yard, that's wonderful, that's what I'm suggesting people do.

I am still trying to figure out what exactly it is you think? First you say she can't go outside. Then you say she can go only in the backyard as long as she's not on others property. Then you say she can't go outside even if she is on private property!

Are you just making things up as you go? ?

 

[Moonbear]

And where did you get information that my cat is doing that? Did you follow my cat around at night to see if she was doing that? You are specuating here just as much as I am...

I have cited information that shows averages. I assume you understand the concept of averages, right? People actually DO study cat behavior, believe it or not.

I am sitting in my chair STUNNED that you agree that confining an animal is good for its health...(And I don't want to hear your whole, "build it an ourdoor prison camp in your backyard" story again, that is NOT equivalent, and you know it)

Why is it not equivalent? If you do not have a large enough yard or the inclination to provide an adequate enclosure, then you shouldn't own that pet, just like someone who has anything less than 3 to 5 acres of property should not have a horse. If you can't provide a suitable environment for your cat on your property, then you have no business owning that cat. It's not up to your neighbors to provide that space unless they have chosen to share ownership of that cat with you.

Nah, uh uh.

That is NOT consistent with what you said before! And I quote:

And did you read the next sentence? The one that said:

Again, I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs.

It really seems, or you know for a fact that it is? If you own a cat, and you let it outside, and it comes back all scrappy from a fight with ticks, then you should have enough sense to know better not to let that happen twice. But that is not true all the time and it is NOT true for all cases. So don't extrapolate that to be all inclusive, please!

All of the sites I have provided links to have cited that it is FACT that outdoor cats live shorter lives than indoor cats. Yes, that is an average; I thought being a science forum, that would be obvious. Not every outdoor cat gets hit by a car at age 3 and not every indoor cat lives to 20. And, why should your cat suffer the first time? You shouldn't have to make the cat learn your lessons for you. As I said before, you and your cat have been very lucky, fortunate. That doesn't make it any better of an idea.

I am still trying to figure out what exactly it is you think? First you say she can't go outside. Then you say she can go only in the backyard as long as she's not on others property. Then you say she can't go outside even if she is on private property!

Are you just making things up as you go? ?

I've been consistent all along; the links I have been providing have been saying pretty much the same thing. But, without some form of enclosure or supervision, how do you keep your cat in your backyard and ensure it is not wandering into the neighbor's yard? And, yes, that "and" should have been "and/or" regarding supervision and/or an enclosure. That was a simple typo. I'm providing my opinion based on the evidence of experts. What are you basing your opinion on other than your luck with one cat?

: J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006 Feb 1;228(3):371-6.Seroprevalence of feline leukemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus infection among cats in North America and risk factors for seropositivity.

Levy JK, Scott HM, Lachtara JL, Crawford PC.

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32610-0126, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine seroprevalence of FeLV and FIV infection among cats in North America and risk factors for seropositivity. DESIGN: Prospective cross-sectional survey. ANIMALS: 18,038 cats tested at 345 veterinary clinics (n=9,970) and 145 animal shelters (8,068) between August and November 2004. PROCEDURE: Cats were tested with a point-of-care ELISA for FeLV antigen and FIV antibody. A multivariable random effects logistic regression model was used to identify risk factors significantly associated with seropositivity while accounting for clinic-to-clinic (or shelter) variability. RESULTS: 409 (2.3%) cats were seropositive for FeLV antigen, and 446 (2.5%) cats were seropositive for FIV antibody; 58 (0.3%) cats were seropositive for infection with both viruses. Multivariable analysis indicated that age, sex, health status, and cat lifestyle and source were significantly associated with risk of seropositivity, with adults more likely to be seropositive than juveniles (adjusted odds ratios [ORs], 2.5 and 2.05 for FeLV and FIV seropositivity, respectively), sexually intact adult males more likely to be seropositive than sexually intact adult females (adjusted ORs, 2.4 and 4.66), and outdoor cats that were sick at the time of testing more likely to be seropositive than healthy indoor cats (adjusted ORs, 8.89 and 11.3). CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that certain characteristics, such as age, sex, health status, and lifestyle, are associated with risk of FeLV and FIV seropositivity among cats in North America. However, cats in all categories were found to be at risk for infection, and current guidelines to test all cats at the time of acquisition and again during illness should be followed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16448357&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

I haven't read that article yet, but I'm puzzled a bit by the comparison of sick outdoor cats to healthy indoor ones, so am going to have to look further tomorrow...I can't get electronic access to that journal to work from home tonight. I'm wondering if it's just that there weren't enough sick indoor-only cats brought in, or if it's that there weren't enough healthy outdoor cats with the infection (they may be coming in because of the infection symptoms rather than detecting it while still appearing healthy).

J Small Anim Pract. 2006 Feb;47(2):89-93.
Y-T humeral fractures with supracondylar comminution in five cats.

Macias C, Gibbons SE, McKee WM.

Centro Veterinario De Referencia Bahia de Malaga, Parque Empresarial Laurotorre 25, Alhaurin de la Torre, 29130 Malaga, Spain.

Five cats with Y-T fractures of the humeral condyle were reviewed. Breeds presented included domestic shorthair (four cats) and Maine Coon (one cat). Age ranged from two to 16 years. All the cats were neutered males. A road traffic accident was suspected in all cases. Four of the fractures were severely comminuted and one fracture had four fragments. The fractures were repaired via combined medial and lateral approaches. Fixation of the epicondylar ridges was performed using buttress plates in four cases and neutralisation plates in one case. The intracondylar fracture was stabilised using a 2.7 mm lag screw in four cases and a 3.5 mm lag screw in the other. A corticocancellous bone graft was applied in two cases. The intracondylar fracture was accurately reduced in all cases. Complete radiographic healing was documented in two cases 6 and 11 weeks following surgery. Failure of the fixation occurred in the most severely comminuted fracture five days postoperatively. Surgical revision was not performed, and the limb was amputated. Three cats were free of lameness and had resumed outdoor activities at follow-up (five to eight months after surgery). Marked lameness due to loss of elbow movement was observed in the other case.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16438696&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Biologicals. 2005 Dec;33(4):219-20. Epub 2005 Oct 28.Feline immunodeficiency virus vaccine: a rational paradigm for clinical decision-making.

Zislin A.

Fort Dodge Animal Health, 9225 Indian Creek Parkway, Suite 400, Overland Park, KS 66210, USA. azislin@fdah.com

A veterinarian must take into consideration his/her responsibility to prevent disease when assessing the needs of a client's cat that is risk for FIV infection based on its established lifestyle. Cats infected with FIV have debilitated immune functions and exhibit a high level of chronic morbidity impacting on the animal's welfare and the owner's economic abilities to maintain the pet. Attempts to reduce the prevalence of FIV solely by advising clients to maintain their cats indoors has resulted in poor compliance and not impacted on a change in infection rates with outdoor cats. Therapeutics have not impacted on outcomes in infected animals. There has a need for a vaccine for high-risk cats. Options for vaccines that do not confound the current FIV antibody test have not been efficacious against a broad spectrum of isolates. Fel-O-Vax FIV, a conventional non-marker whole virus, has shown good efficacy against heterologous challenges. The intervention should be discussed with cat owners since the vaccine has a reasonable expectation of preventing FIV infection in cats at risk without undue safety issues. Veterinarians who do not initiate this dialogue with owners who have outdoor cats in an environment where 2.5% of cats in the USA are infected may be remiss in their professional responsibilities. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16257537&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

J Parasitol. 1995 Oct;81(5):736-41.

Risk factors for transmission of Toxoplasma gondii on swine farms in Illinois.

Weigel RM, Dubey JP, Siegel AM, Kitron UD, Mannelli A, Mitchell MA, Mateus-Pinilla NE, Thulliez P, Shen SK, Kwok OC, et al.

Department of Veterinary Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois, Urbana 61801, USA.

Two epidemiologic studies of risk factors for transmission of Toxoplasma gondii to swine were conducted for farms in Illinois. The first study was a cross-sectional survey of swine farms from the state of Illinois pseudorabies testing program, in which farm owners or managers were interviewed by telephone regarding presence of risk factors for transmission of T. gondii on the farm. There were 123 farms surveyed that provided blood samples for at least 30 sows. The mean sow seroprevalence was 19.5% (median = 10.0%). Multiple regression analysis of the association of sow seroprevalence with outdoor housing of sows, cat access to sow areas, number of sows, open feed storage and water delivery, delayed removal of carcasses, and presence of rodents on the farm indicated that higher sow seroprevalence was associated with cat access to sows (P = 0.009) and fewer sows in the herd (P = 0.05). The second study was a field investigation of 47 swine farms (37 from the cross-sectional study). Data collection included obtaining blood samples from swine, cats, and rodents, and fecal samples from cats, heart and brain tissue from rodents, and feed, water, and soil samples for T. gondii examination. The risk of T. gondii transmission from cats and rodents to sows and finishing pigs was evaluated, taking into account housing conditions and herd size. Multiple regression analysis indicated that T. gondii seroprevalence in finishing pigs increased with more seropositive juvenile cats on the farm (P < 0.0001) and higher seroprevalence in house mice (P = 0.0023).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=7472865&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1990 Jan 1;196(1):96-9.Risk factors for Haemobartonella felis infection in cats.

Grindem CB, Corbett WT, Tomkins MT.

Department of Microbiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27606.

A seroepidemiologic survey for Haemobartonella felis infection in cats of Wake County, NC was undertaken. To help assess risk factors, cat owners completed a 10-item questionnaire. Additionally, blood samples were obtained for determination of H felis presence, FeLV infection, and anemia. Prevalence rates for H felis presence were as follows: all cats, 4.9% (6/123); healthy cats, 3.6% (3/83); and ill cats, 7.5% (3/40). The estimated relative risk for haemobartonellosis was also increased in cats with any of the following: anemia, FeLV-positive status, lack of vaccinations, history of catbite abscesses and/or anemia, age less than or equal to 3 years, or outdoor-roaming status. The sex, breed, number of cats in the household, or presence of fleas were not significant factors, although ill male cats had a greater estimated relative risk for haemobartonellosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=2295559&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

 

[DaveC426913]

"Any expert that tells you an animal is better of locked inside a house is a fool and should not be called an expert in anything related to animals. "

Careful, you are flirting with anthropomorphization here.

(You're also being rather sensationalist. Did you know that an unlocked door will effectively keep a cat indoors? Hm?)

What pet owners like to think is best for our little loved ones is not reliable. Just because we crave the outdoors doesn't mean our pets need it to stay healthy. (I'm not talking about fresh air and exercise here, I'm talking about dangers, mischief, vermin, diseases.)

Cats-as-pets are not adult animals, they are arrested as adolescents. As owners we never tgeach them to fend for themselves. They would NOT be able to survive outdoors for a significant length of time. That is what makes them pets.

If you like to think you know what's best for your cat, think of it as an adolescent. Sure, they can manage on their own, they might even manage for quite some time, but on average, their health will tend to suffer.

An adolescent may WANT to come and go as it pleases, but that doesn't mean it's good for it.

And it sure isn't going to be hrealthy for it if it finds itself on the business end of an irate gardener, sleepless homeowner or a hungry coon.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, have you actually read any of the links I've provided?

I've skimmed the thread now, and most of the first page was about how your neighbors cats affect you. Fine, I'll accept that if a cat is being a pest to a neighbor, the owner should do something about it. But my parents have never gotten a complaint about their cats, so that objection isn't really relevant as a general principle. It does seem like that is your main objection, though.

That said, my roommate had some cats in our condo and they were indoor-only because of the lack of space for them outside. They bolted for the door every time I left. I felt sorry for them.

I am a biologist, yes, which is why I can state with great conviction that cats are NOT a natural part of the ecosystem into which they are being released.

I'm not saying they are! But the fact of the matter is that cats enjoy being outside and do have some hunting instincts that come through and can only be exercised outside. If I cared about whether the ecosystem stayed natural, I wouldn't build a house in the first place, I'd live in a tent (of course, my parents' current house was built on farmland, so there wasn't any "natural...ecosystem" there when they built it either). So the objection about the "natural...ecosystem" isn't really relevant either.

They are also indiscriminate killers when they go out, they aren't just killing rats or starlings (an introduced "pest" species of bird), they kill whatever they can catch, even if it's an endangered species.

Most cats I've seen aren't all that great at killing birds, so that just leaves small land animals - virtually all of which are considered pests by at least someone.

...I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs.

Well, at least you do agree that cats shouldn't be kept completely inside. But if an outdoor enclosure is a 1/2 acre yard, doesn't that negate the arguments about killing other animals? The question then is really back to whether or not you need to confine them to keep from bothering your neighbors or running out into traffic.

edit: Also, I don't know the statistics about disease and getting hit by cars, so all I can say is my experience: Of the 6 cats my parents have had since I've been alive (that I can remember), only one got hit by a car. One died of a disease that I can't remember (I'm certain it was not rabies), but it was at least 10. All the rest lived into their teens (the current two are about 12 or 13). So the threat from cars and disease seems to be overblown to me as long as you take care of them.

 

[Astronuc]

This cat has to stay indoors.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_fe_st/crazy_cat;_ylt=AqUfwsMIB52JjvU8NqMp08as0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

FAIRFIELD, Conn. - Residents of the neighborhood of Sunset Circle say they have been terrorized by a crazy cat named Lewis. Lewis for his part has been uniquely cited, personally issued a restraining order by the town's animal control officer.

"He looks like Felix the Cat and has six toes on each foot, each with a long claw," Janet Kettman, a neighbor said Monday. "They are formidable weapons."

The neighbors said those weapons, along with catlike stealth, have allowed Lewis to attack at least a half dozen people and ambush the Avon lady as she was getting out of her car.

Some people just don't get along with cats.

 

[Integral]

Well... snip...

Do mules freely to roam the cityscape and countryside where you live?

I had to laugh at that...Clearly there is a mule (I would like to use the biblical word) running loose around Cyrus's house, yard and neighborhood.

Moonbear is right on target here. We have indoor only cats, they were born indoors and have spent their entire lives indoors, they are only slightly interested in going outdoors.

You can only guess at the activities of your cat as soon as it is out of sight. Generally it is very difficult to tell where a troublesome cat comes from so it is impossible to complain to the owner. It is your responsibility as a pet owner to control your animals, a loose cat is out of control. Therefore by definition it is wild or owned (does anyone really "own" a cat?) by an irresponsible human.

It is an accepted practice to let cats roam in a rural setting, some how, irresponsible people, cannot differentiate between a rural setting and a suburban housing development.

 

[Moonbear]

Generally it is very difficult to tell where a troublesome cat comes from so it is impossible to complain to the owner.

And considering this whole thing started with Cyrus' comment that he let's his cat out without a collar, I wonder how he expects anyone to complain if they were so inclined? Of course, it's common for people to allow cats outdoors either without a collar or with a breakaway collar (that's preferable for cats because they just seem to have an awful lot of trouble getting caught on things when they try to squeeze through narrow places), which they then lose while out. So, there isn't even a way to differentiate, in most cases, between a stray cat and a pet cat when they wander into your yard unless you happen to already know the cat. Microchips are the best way to ID a cat, but that doesn't help the neighbors figure out who to complain to, it just helps a shelter or vet notify the owner when the cat is brought in as a stray or injured.

The remnants of hunting instincts that pet cats have can be satisfied easily with toys that move, or even the red dot from a laser pointer...I've seen cats play for quite a long time chasing a red dot. Or, use a feather on a string like a lure. Run it over and behind and under furniture, and they'll be quite happy thinking they're chasing prey. They don't need to hunt, but they do enjoy chasing and catching things as if they were hunting, so you just need to spend time with them providing that stimulation for them, just like people satisfy that need for their pet dogs by tossing a ball or stick or offering stuffed animals and other chew toys for them. If you spend more time with them, they'll be more affectionate toward you too.

 

[Cyrus]

I had to laugh at that...Clearly there is a mule (I would like to use the biblical word) running loose around Cyrus's house, yard and neighborhood.

That is the most polite insult I have ever seen. I can read between the lines on that one buddy! What are you implying!

It is your responsibility as a pet owner to control your animals, a loose cat is out of control.

Yes, you are 100% right. You have to control your pets if they are out of control . My cat going out at night; however, is not out of control (In the sense of causing trouble). She did not go out and cause problems for the neighbors. If she had, her being allowed to go outside would have to be modified, obviously.

And no, moonbear is not on target here. She using the spray and pray technique

 

[scott1]

I have an indoor cat.If I let her outside I think I will get sued and get the death penatly My cat attacks everything she hasn't killed anyone(yet).But it is nice having a killer cat around to hunt down insects.

 

[Integral]

Yes, you are 100% right. You have to control your pets if they are out of control . My cat going out at night; however, is not out of control (In the sense of causing trouble). She did not go out and cause problems for the neighbors. If she had, her being allowed to go outside would have to be modified, obviously.

This is your belief, however you have no real knowledge WHAT your cat does, alone, in the dark, in your NEIGHBORS backyard. You have NO control over what your cat does, that is the control I speak of, that is the irresponsibility I am speak of. Perhaps you should follow your cat around some night, only then can you say anything of its behavior, but even then your presence can and would influence the behavior of your cat.

Look, I understand perfectly well that there are outside cats which do not cause troubles for neighbors, and there may be (not so sure on this one) cats that do not kill for sport, but unfortunately, as seems to be customary in our society, all can be held accountable for the actions of a few. We all go through metal detectors at the airport because a few might do harm. We attempt to restrain all dogs because a few do harm. Why are cats different?

My apologies for the insult, the devil made me do it.

 

[Moonbear]

This cat has to stay indoors.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_fe_st/crazy_cat;_ylt=AqUfwsMIB52JjvU8NqMp08as0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

And, so apropos is the statement of the cat owner:

A tearful Cisero said the neighbors have spun the situation out of control.

"I've tried to tell them to just stay away from Lewis and he will stay away from you; this has caused complete havoc for me," said Cisero, who has applied to the court for accelerated rehabilitation — for the cat.

Cisero said she adopted Lewis three years ago and he never attacked her or any members of her family. "He's a cat's cat, he climbs trees and sits on people's roofs but now he's forced to be in the house all the time."

http://www.connpost.com/news/ci_3646541