Indoor vs Outdoor Cat Debate: split from derailed thread

[Moonbear]

And where did you get information that my cat is doing that? Did you follow my cat around at night to see if she was doing that? You are specuating here just as much as I am...

I have cited information that shows averages. I assume you understand the concept of averages, right? People actually DO study cat behavior, believe it or not.

I am sitting in my chair STUNNED that you agree that confining an animal is good for its health...(And I don't want to hear your whole, "build it an ourdoor prison camp in your backyard" story again, that is NOT equivalent, and you know it)

Why is it not equivalent? If you do not have a large enough yard or the inclination to provide an adequate enclosure, then you shouldn't own that pet, just like someone who has anything less than 3 to 5 acres of property should not have a horse. If you can't provide a suitable environment for your cat on your property, then you have no business owning that cat. It's not up to your neighbors to provide that space unless they have chosen to share ownership of that cat with you.

Nah, uh uh.

That is NOT consistent with what you said before! And I quote:

And did you read the next sentence? The one that said:

Again, I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs.

It really seems, or you know for a fact that it is? If you own a cat, and you let it outside, and it comes back all scrappy from a fight with ticks, then you should have enough sense to know better not to let that happen twice. But that is not true all the time and it is NOT true for all cases. So don't extrapolate that to be all inclusive, please!

All of the sites I have provided links to have cited that it is FACT that outdoor cats live shorter lives than indoor cats. Yes, that is an average; I thought being a science forum, that would be obvious. Not every outdoor cat gets hit by a car at age 3 and not every indoor cat lives to 20. And, why should your cat suffer the first time? You shouldn't have to make the cat learn your lessons for you. As I said before, you and your cat have been very lucky, fortunate. That doesn't make it any better of an idea.

I am still trying to figure out what exactly it is you think? First you say she can't go outside. Then you say she can go only in the backyard as long as she's not on others property. Then you say she can't go outside even if she is on private property!

Are you just making things up as you go? ?

I've been consistent all along; the links I have been providing have been saying pretty much the same thing. But, without some form of enclosure or supervision, how do you keep your cat in your backyard and ensure it is not wandering into the neighbor's yard? And, yes, that "and" should have been "and/or" regarding supervision and/or an enclosure. That was a simple typo. I'm providing my opinion based on the evidence of experts. What are you basing your opinion on other than your luck with one cat?

: J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006 Feb 1;228(3):371-6.Seroprevalence of feline leukemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus infection among cats in North America and risk factors for seropositivity.

Levy JK, Scott HM, Lachtara JL, Crawford PC.

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32610-0126, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine seroprevalence of FeLV and FIV infection among cats in North America and risk factors for seropositivity. DESIGN: Prospective cross-sectional survey. ANIMALS: 18,038 cats tested at 345 veterinary clinics (n=9,970) and 145 animal shelters (8,068) between August and November 2004. PROCEDURE: Cats were tested with a point-of-care ELISA for FeLV antigen and FIV antibody. A multivariable random effects logistic regression model was used to identify risk factors significantly associated with seropositivity while accounting for clinic-to-clinic (or shelter) variability. RESULTS: 409 (2.3%) cats were seropositive for FeLV antigen, and 446 (2.5%) cats were seropositive for FIV antibody; 58 (0.3%) cats were seropositive for infection with both viruses. Multivariable analysis indicated that age, sex, health status, and cat lifestyle and source were significantly associated with risk of seropositivity, with adults more likely to be seropositive than juveniles (adjusted odds ratios [ORs], 2.5 and 2.05 for FeLV and FIV seropositivity, respectively), sexually intact adult males more likely to be seropositive than sexually intact adult females (adjusted ORs, 2.4 and 4.66), and outdoor cats that were sick at the time of testing more likely to be seropositive than healthy indoor cats (adjusted ORs, 8.89 and 11.3). CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that certain characteristics, such as age, sex, health status, and lifestyle, are associated with risk of FeLV and FIV seropositivity among cats in North America. However, cats in all categories were found to be at risk for infection, and current guidelines to test all cats at the time of acquisition and again during illness should be followed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16448357&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

I haven't read that article yet, but I'm puzzled a bit by the comparison of sick outdoor cats to healthy indoor ones, so am going to have to look further tomorrow...I can't get electronic access to that journal to work from home tonight. I'm wondering if it's just that there weren't enough sick indoor-only cats brought in, or if it's that there weren't enough healthy outdoor cats with the infection (they may be coming in because of the infection symptoms rather than detecting it while still appearing healthy).

J Small Anim Pract. 2006 Feb;47(2):89-93.
Y-T humeral fractures with supracondylar comminution in five cats.

Macias C, Gibbons SE, McKee WM.

Centro Veterinario De Referencia Bahia de Malaga, Parque Empresarial Laurotorre 25, Alhaurin de la Torre, 29130 Malaga, Spain.

Five cats with Y-T fractures of the humeral condyle were reviewed. Breeds presented included domestic shorthair (four cats) and Maine Coon (one cat). Age ranged from two to 16 years. All the cats were neutered males. A road traffic accident was suspected in all cases. Four of the fractures were severely comminuted and one fracture had four fragments. The fractures were repaired via combined medial and lateral approaches. Fixation of the epicondylar ridges was performed using buttress plates in four cases and neutralisation plates in one case. The intracondylar fracture was stabilised using a 2.7 mm lag screw in four cases and a 3.5 mm lag screw in the other. A corticocancellous bone graft was applied in two cases. The intracondylar fracture was accurately reduced in all cases. Complete radiographic healing was documented in two cases 6 and 11 weeks following surgery. Failure of the fixation occurred in the most severely comminuted fracture five days postoperatively. Surgical revision was not performed, and the limb was amputated. Three cats were free of lameness and had resumed outdoor activities at follow-up (five to eight months after surgery). Marked lameness due to loss of elbow movement was observed in the other case.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16438696&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Biologicals. 2005 Dec;33(4):219-20. Epub 2005 Oct 28.Feline immunodeficiency virus vaccine: a rational paradigm for clinical decision-making.

Zislin A.

Fort Dodge Animal Health, 9225 Indian Creek Parkway, Suite 400, Overland Park, KS 66210, USA. azislin@fdah.com

A veterinarian must take into consideration his/her responsibility to prevent disease when assessing the needs of a client's cat that is risk for FIV infection based on its established lifestyle. Cats infected with FIV have debilitated immune functions and exhibit a high level of chronic morbidity impacting on the animal's welfare and the owner's economic abilities to maintain the pet. Attempts to reduce the prevalence of FIV solely by advising clients to maintain their cats indoors has resulted in poor compliance and not impacted on a change in infection rates with outdoor cats. Therapeutics have not impacted on outcomes in infected animals. There has a need for a vaccine for high-risk cats. Options for vaccines that do not confound the current FIV antibody test have not been efficacious against a broad spectrum of isolates. Fel-O-Vax FIV, a conventional non-marker whole virus, has shown good efficacy against heterologous challenges. The intervention should be discussed with cat owners since the vaccine has a reasonable expectation of preventing FIV infection in cats at risk without undue safety issues. Veterinarians who do not initiate this dialogue with owners who have outdoor cats in an environment where 2.5% of cats in the USA are infected may be remiss in their professional responsibilities. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16257537&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

J Parasitol. 1995 Oct;81(5):736-41.

Risk factors for transmission of Toxoplasma gondii on swine farms in Illinois.

Weigel RM, Dubey JP, Siegel AM, Kitron UD, Mannelli A, Mitchell MA, Mateus-Pinilla NE, Thulliez P, Shen SK, Kwok OC, et al.

Department of Veterinary Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois, Urbana 61801, USA.

Two epidemiologic studies of risk factors for transmission of Toxoplasma gondii to swine were conducted for farms in Illinois. The first study was a cross-sectional survey of swine farms from the state of Illinois pseudorabies testing program, in which farm owners or managers were interviewed by telephone regarding presence of risk factors for transmission of T. gondii on the farm. There were 123 farms surveyed that provided blood samples for at least 30 sows. The mean sow seroprevalence was 19.5% (median = 10.0%). Multiple regression analysis of the association of sow seroprevalence with outdoor housing of sows, cat access to sow areas, number of sows, open feed storage and water delivery, delayed removal of carcasses, and presence of rodents on the farm indicated that higher sow seroprevalence was associated with cat access to sows (P = 0.009) and fewer sows in the herd (P = 0.05). The second study was a field investigation of 47 swine farms (37 from the cross-sectional study). Data collection included obtaining blood samples from swine, cats, and rodents, and fecal samples from cats, heart and brain tissue from rodents, and feed, water, and soil samples for T. gondii examination. The risk of T. gondii transmission from cats and rodents to sows and finishing pigs was evaluated, taking into account housing conditions and herd size. Multiple regression analysis indicated that T. gondii seroprevalence in finishing pigs increased with more seropositive juvenile cats on the farm (P < 0.0001) and higher seroprevalence in house mice (P = 0.0023).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=7472865&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1990 Jan 1;196(1):96-9.Risk factors for Haemobartonella felis infection in cats.

Grindem CB, Corbett WT, Tomkins MT.

Department of Microbiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27606.

A seroepidemiologic survey for Haemobartonella felis infection in cats of Wake County, NC was undertaken. To help assess risk factors, cat owners completed a 10-item questionnaire. Additionally, blood samples were obtained for determination of H felis presence, FeLV infection, and anemia. Prevalence rates for H felis presence were as follows: all cats, 4.9% (6/123); healthy cats, 3.6% (3/83); and ill cats, 7.5% (3/40). The estimated relative risk for haemobartonellosis was also increased in cats with any of the following: anemia, FeLV-positive status, lack of vaccinations, history of catbite abscesses and/or anemia, age less than or equal to 3 years, or outdoor-roaming status. The sex, breed, number of cats in the household, or presence of fleas were not significant factors, although ill male cats had a greater estimated relative risk for haemobartonellosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=2295559&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

 

[DaveC426913]

"Any expert that tells you an animal is better of locked inside a house is a fool and should not be called an expert in anything related to animals. "

Careful, you are flirting with anthropomorphization here.

(You're also being rather sensationalist. Did you know that an unlocked door will effectively keep a cat indoors? Hm?)

What pet owners like to think is best for our little loved ones is not reliable. Just because we crave the outdoors doesn't mean our pets need it to stay healthy. (I'm not talking about fresh air and exercise here, I'm talking about dangers, mischief, vermin, diseases.)

Cats-as-pets are not adult animals, they are arrested as adolescents. As owners we never tgeach them to fend for themselves. They would NOT be able to survive outdoors for a significant length of time. That is what makes them pets.

If you like to think you know what's best for your cat, think of it as an adolescent. Sure, they can manage on their own, they might even manage for quite some time, but on average, their health will tend to suffer.

An adolescent may WANT to come and go as it pleases, but that doesn't mean it's good for it.

And it sure isn't going to be hrealthy for it if it finds itself on the business end of an irate gardener, sleepless homeowner or a hungry coon.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, have you actually read any of the links I've provided?

I've skimmed the thread now, and most of the first page was about how your neighbors cats affect you. Fine, I'll accept that if a cat is being a pest to a neighbor, the owner should do something about it. But my parents have never gotten a complaint about their cats, so that objection isn't really relevant as a general principle. It does seem like that is your main objection, though.

That said, my roommate had some cats in our condo and they were indoor-only because of the lack of space for them outside. They bolted for the door every time I left. I felt sorry for them.

I am a biologist, yes, which is why I can state with great conviction that cats are NOT a natural part of the ecosystem into which they are being released.

I'm not saying they are! But the fact of the matter is that cats enjoy being outside and do have some hunting instincts that come through and can only be exercised outside. If I cared about whether the ecosystem stayed natural, I wouldn't build a house in the first place, I'd live in a tent (of course, my parents' current house was built on farmland, so there wasn't any "natural...ecosystem" there when they built it either). So the objection about the "natural...ecosystem" isn't really relevant either.

They are also indiscriminate killers when they go out, they aren't just killing rats or starlings (an introduced "pest" species of bird), they kill whatever they can catch, even if it's an endangered species.

Most cats I've seen aren't all that great at killing birds, so that just leaves small land animals - virtually all of which are considered pests by at least someone.

...I've already provided several links that show how one should provide an appropriate indoor environment or outdoor enclosure for cats that meets all their behavioral needs.

Well, at least you do agree that cats shouldn't be kept completely inside. But if an outdoor enclosure is a 1/2 acre yard, doesn't that negate the arguments about killing other animals? The question then is really back to whether or not you need to confine them to keep from bothering your neighbors or running out into traffic.

edit: Also, I don't know the statistics about disease and getting hit by cars, so all I can say is my experience: Of the 6 cats my parents have had since I've been alive (that I can remember), only one got hit by a car. One died of a disease that I can't remember (I'm certain it was not rabies), but it was at least 10. All the rest lived into their teens (the current two are about 12 or 13). So the threat from cars and disease seems to be overblown to me as long as you take care of them.

 

[Astronuc]

This cat has to stay indoors.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_fe_st/crazy_cat;_ylt=AqUfwsMIB52JjvU8NqMp08as0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

FAIRFIELD, Conn. - Residents of the neighborhood of Sunset Circle say they have been terrorized by a crazy cat named Lewis. Lewis for his part has been uniquely cited, personally issued a restraining order by the town's animal control officer.

"He looks like Felix the Cat and has six toes on each foot, each with a long claw," Janet Kettman, a neighbor said Monday. "They are formidable weapons."

The neighbors said those weapons, along with catlike stealth, have allowed Lewis to attack at least a half dozen people and ambush the Avon lady as she was getting out of her car.

Some people just don't get along with cats.

 

[Integral]

Well... snip...

Do mules freely to roam the cityscape and countryside where you live?

I had to laugh at that...Clearly there is a mule (I would like to use the biblical word) running loose around Cyrus's house, yard and neighborhood.

Moonbear is right on target here. We have indoor only cats, they were born indoors and have spent their entire lives indoors, they are only slightly interested in going outdoors.

You can only guess at the activities of your cat as soon as it is out of sight. Generally it is very difficult to tell where a troublesome cat comes from so it is impossible to complain to the owner. It is your responsibility as a pet owner to control your animals, a loose cat is out of control. Therefore by definition it is wild or owned (does anyone really "own" a cat?) by an irresponsible human.

It is an accepted practice to let cats roam in a rural setting, some how, irresponsible people, cannot differentiate between a rural setting and a suburban housing development.

 

[Moonbear]

Generally it is very difficult to tell where a troublesome cat comes from so it is impossible to complain to the owner.

And considering this whole thing started with Cyrus' comment that he let's his cat out without a collar, I wonder how he expects anyone to complain if they were so inclined? Of course, it's common for people to allow cats outdoors either without a collar or with a breakaway collar (that's preferable for cats because they just seem to have an awful lot of trouble getting caught on things when they try to squeeze through narrow places), which they then lose while out. So, there isn't even a way to differentiate, in most cases, between a stray cat and a pet cat when they wander into your yard unless you happen to already know the cat. Microchips are the best way to ID a cat, but that doesn't help the neighbors figure out who to complain to, it just helps a shelter or vet notify the owner when the cat is brought in as a stray or injured.

The remnants of hunting instincts that pet cats have can be satisfied easily with toys that move, or even the red dot from a laser pointer...I've seen cats play for quite a long time chasing a red dot. Or, use a feather on a string like a lure. Run it over and behind and under furniture, and they'll be quite happy thinking they're chasing prey. They don't need to hunt, but they do enjoy chasing and catching things as if they were hunting, so you just need to spend time with them providing that stimulation for them, just like people satisfy that need for their pet dogs by tossing a ball or stick or offering stuffed animals and other chew toys for them. If you spend more time with them, they'll be more affectionate toward you too.

 

[Cyrus]

I had to laugh at that...Clearly there is a mule (I would like to use the biblical word) running loose around Cyrus's house, yard and neighborhood.

That is the most polite insult I have ever seen. I can read between the lines on that one buddy! What are you implying!

It is your responsibility as a pet owner to control your animals, a loose cat is out of control.

Yes, you are 100% right. You have to control your pets if they are out of control . My cat going out at night; however, is not out of control (In the sense of causing trouble). She did not go out and cause problems for the neighbors. If she had, her being allowed to go outside would have to be modified, obviously.

And no, moonbear is not on target here. She using the spray and pray technique

 

[scott1]

I have an indoor cat.If I let her outside I think I will get sued and get the death penatly My cat attacks everything she hasn't killed anyone(yet).But it is nice having a killer cat around to hunt down insects.

 

[Integral]

Yes, you are 100% right. You have to control your pets if they are out of control . My cat going out at night; however, is not out of control (In the sense of causing trouble). She did not go out and cause problems for the neighbors. If she had, her being allowed to go outside would have to be modified, obviously.

This is your belief, however you have no real knowledge WHAT your cat does, alone, in the dark, in your NEIGHBORS backyard. You have NO control over what your cat does, that is the control I speak of, that is the irresponsibility I am speak of. Perhaps you should follow your cat around some night, only then can you say anything of its behavior, but even then your presence can and would influence the behavior of your cat.

Look, I understand perfectly well that there are outside cats which do not cause troubles for neighbors, and there may be (not so sure on this one) cats that do not kill for sport, but unfortunately, as seems to be customary in our society, all can be held accountable for the actions of a few. We all go through metal detectors at the airport because a few might do harm. We attempt to restrain all dogs because a few do harm. Why are cats different?

My apologies for the insult, the devil made me do it.

 

[Moonbear]

This cat has to stay indoors.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_on_fe_st/crazy_cat;_ylt=AqUfwsMIB52JjvU8NqMp08as0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

And, so apropos is the statement of the cat owner:

A tearful Cisero said the neighbors have spun the situation out of control.

"I've tried to tell them to just stay away from Lewis and he will stay away from you; this has caused complete havoc for me," said Cisero, who has applied to the court for accelerated rehabilitation — for the cat.

Cisero said she adopted Lewis three years ago and he never attacked her or any members of her family. "He's a cat's cat, he climbs trees and sits on people's roofs but now he's forced to be in the house all the time."

http://www.connpost.com/news/ci_3646541

 

[Cyrus]

Hey, that cat is crazy(at least according to wallgreens). It's going around attacking people, for no reason whatsoever. That cat is even on medication. Why is it out running around? Lewis' owner is a idiot. HAH his name is LEWIS! Did you see the pics of him??

But, one crazy cat is not enough reason to stop all cats from going outside.

My apologies for the insult, the devil made me do it.

You mean moonbear told you to!?? Moonbear!

She theorized that Lewis may be acting in self-defense. "One day he came home covered in eggs because someone had egged him and another time a woman sprayed him with a hose. They have been tormenting this poor animal."

That's probably why the cat's crazy. It's neighbors are Moonbear!

 

[Kazza_765]

I grew up with cats and we never let them outside. We got our current cat as a kitten, and it has always lived indoors. When she gets restless, she let's us know, and we play with her. If no one is home, she fights with our dogs. She does not seem at all discontent with being "caged" inside.

Our fist ever cat we did let outside, but he was attacked quite severely by other cats to the stage that he was terrified of anything that moved. Eventually he wouldn't come near us, we had to leave his food outside for him, and one day he just never came back.

We often have dead birds left in our backyard having been killed by neighbourhood cats. Having three dogs, any faeces they leave goes unnoticed or gets eaten so that's not really a problem for me, but not everyone has dogs.

A friend of mine used to own a pet duck (an unusual pet for suburbia ill admit), that lived in their backyard. After a year or so it was killed by a neighbourhood cat. Why should cats have the right to leave their property to attack and murder other pets that are doing the right thing by staying in their own backyard?

 

[DaveC426913]

My cat going out at night; however, is not out of control (In the sense of causing trouble). She did not go out and cause problems for the neighbors.

How do you know?

Sure you speak neighbourese, but do you speak squirrelese, birdese or petuniaese?

Perhaps that red-breasted robin singing at your kitchen window is really saying "Your monster killed all my babies."

 

[tiger 1015]

just read a bit so i don't know if you said this already

Cats are happier outdoors because they can roam free! I let my cat roam free because i am in the country. But if you are in the city , there are all those fumes and polution and all that junk and thoses strays (with flees and so on) and the chance of your cat going in the road and ... And if you don't neuter your cat u can have kittens like my cat (witch i love!).But you might not be able to handle that many cats. Your cat is safer indoors but is Happier outdoors! so your better off in your back yard building a mini barn and a 6 foot fence lol.