Inquiry about a derivation in "A First Course in GR" by Schutz

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around specific equations and derivations presented in "A First Course in GR" by Schutz, particularly focusing on the conditions and numerical factors associated with certain equations. Participants are examining the implications of these equations, questioning their correctness, and seeking clarification on the definitions used in the text.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the inequality presented in equation (10.57) and suggests it may be incorrect, proposing an alternative interpretation of the conditions in equation (10.69).
  • Another participant provides a mathematical analysis of the inequalities derived from the equations, leading to a range for the variable β.
  • A different participant raises a concern regarding the numerical factor in equation (10.85), noting a discrepancy in their own calculations compared to the textbook.
  • Several participants express confusion about the context of the questions due to not having access to the textbook.
  • There are mentions of previous discussions on similar topics, indicating that this is not the first inquiry into these equations.
  • One participant seeks clarification on the definitions of certain variables, specifically p_c and ρ_c, in relation to p_* and ρ.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of the equations or the numerical factors involved. Multiple competing views and interpretations are present, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions and implications of the variables used in the equations, and there are references to missing context from the textbook that may affect the understanding of the discussion.

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TL;DR
Hopefully now my post won't be sucked to the BH... :oldbigger:
on page 269 it's written in the second edition of Schutz's textbook that
##(10.69)p_c/\rho_c=\beta (2-5\beta)^{-1}##.
Demanding that this be less than ##1/7## gives:
##(10.70) 0<\beta < 1/6##

Now, if I am not mistaken on page 268 in equation (10.57) the condition should be ##p_c/\rho_c >1/7## (since ##\rho < 7p_*## ).
If this is true (perhaps there's a mistake in
in Eq. (10.57) and sign of inequality should be the other way around).

Anyway, if Eq. (10.57) is the one that should be used on (10.69) then I get the following:
$$b/(2-5b)>1/7 \Leftrightarrow (7b+5b-2)/(2-5b)>0 \Leftrightarrow (12b-2)/(2-5b)>0$$
which means either ##12b-2, 2-5b >0## or ##12b-2, 2-5b<0## the first condition means that (by the fact that ##b\le1##) ##1/6<\beta<2/5## the second condition isn't met.

I have another question regarding his textbook in its second edition:
on page 274 it's written down equation (10.85) as: ##M= (3k^3/(4\pi))^{1/2}##, but I get only that ##M=k^{3/2}## without the numerical constant the includes ##\pi##.

Here are my calculations:
$$M^{1/3} = R\bar{\rho}^{1/3}$$
thus, ##R= M^{1/3}/(\rho^{1/3})##, plug the last equation to (10.84) to get:
##M/(M^{1/3}/(\bar{\rho}^{1/3}))=k\bar{\rho}^{1/3}##
i.e ##M^{2/3}=k##.

How did they get the numerical factor ##(3/(4\pi))^{1/2}##?

Sorry @Dale if you got pissed off of me, I believe it's better to forgive than to be pissed off of someone, is it now OK?

MP.
 
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Is there anybody in there, just nod if you can hear me?
Anyone knows how to answer my questions?
 
I don't understand the question, because I don't have to book to look up the context. Sorry.
 
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vanhees71 said:
I don't understand the question, because I don't have to book to look up the context. Sorry.
Ok, thanks anyway @vanhees71 appreciate you finding the time to look at this thread of mine.

In the past there was a user called Jimmy Snider who went through this book, is he still on PF?
 
Wait! This question was already asked and I commented on it. What happened?
 
@martinbn it got sucked into the BH due to me breaking the rules once more.

Anyway now I edited it to the will of the moderators.
Can you answer these questions again?

Thanks!
 
martinbn said:
Wait! This question was already asked and I commented on it. What happened?
This reply?
About your first question, you have that ##p<p_*## and ##\rho<7p_*##, which is the same as ##\frac{p}{\rho}<\frac{p_*}{\rho}## and ##\frac17<\frac{p_*}{\rho}##. From this you cannot conclude anything about ##\frac{p}{\rho}## and ##\frac17##. But if you choose that ##\frac{p}{\rho}<\frac17<\frac{p_*}{\rho}##, then the above inequalities will be satisfied.
 
Nugatory said:
This reply?
Yes, but it is ok. I was worried that I am imagining things because of all the time I spend outside.
 
  • #10
martinbn said:
Yes, but it is ok. I was worried that I am imagining things because of all the time I spend outside.
Can you help me with my second question?
BTW, I'll read your answer to my first question when I'll find the time, quite hectic schedule I have.
 
  • #11
Nugatory said:
This reply?
I don't understand how are ##p_c ,\rho_c## defined here with respect to ##p^*## and ##\rho##?
It's not clear to me from the book.
 
Last edited:
  • #12
@martinbn or anyone else can answer my questions?

Thanks in advance.
 
  • #13
No one bothers about an incorrect numerical factor?

Pity.
I can upload screenshots of the book, but it won't be from my hardcover copy...
 
  • #14
I am attaching a pic of the two pages where my second conundrum appears for those who don't have the book.
Schutz-274.png
 

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