Integral of an integral of a dot product?

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The problem involves calculating the induced electromotive force (emf) in a coil surrounding a long solenoid with a sinusoidally varying current. The context is rooted in electromagnetism, specifically Faraday's law of induction and the behavior of magnetic fields in relation to coils and solenoids.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the expression for induced emf by substituting the given current function into the relevant equations. They express confusion regarding the double integral and the implications of the dot product in this context.
  • Some participants clarify the vector nature of the magnetic field and area element, noting their alignment along the z-axis. They also discuss the evaluation of the integral over the area of the coil.
  • Others question the relationship between the direction of the magnetic field and the area vector, expressing uncertainty about the expected negative cosine term in the final expression.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing clarifications on the mathematical expressions and physical interpretations involved. There is a productive exchange regarding the setup of the integrals and the implications of vector directions, but no consensus has been reached on the resolution of the original poster's confusion.

Contextual Notes

The original poster expresses a lack of intuition regarding dot products and integrals, indicating a potential gap in understanding the mathematical framework necessary for the problem. There is also a concern about the assumptions related to the orientation of vectors in the context of the problem.

2thumbsGuy
Messages
24
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement


A coil with N loops and radius R is surrounds a very long solenoid of radius r and n turns per meter.

The current in the solenoid is varying sinusoidally with time according to the relation I(t)=I0sin(2πft)

where I0 is the maximum value of the current, and f is its frequency. (This is the type of current supplied by the power company.) If R >> r, show that the induced emf in the coil is given by

ε=-2π2μ0fNnr2I0cos(2πft)


Homework Equations


I(t)=I0sin(2πft)
[itex]\Phi[/itex]B = ∫[itex]\vec{B}[/itex]∙d[itex]\vec{A}[/itex]
B = [itex]\mu[/itex]0nI
ε=N|(d[itex]\Phi[/itex]B)[itex]/[/itex]dt|



The Attempt at a Solution



Substituting the above,
ε=N|(d∫[itex]\mu[/itex]0nI0sin(2πft)∙d[itex]\vec{A}[/itex])[itex]/[/itex]dt|

ε=N[itex]\mu[/itex]0nI0|(d∫sin(2πft)∙d[itex]\vec{A}[/itex])[itex]/[/itex]dt|

∫sin(2πft) = -cos(2πft)/2π

I believe (d∫sin(2πft)∙d[itex]\vec{A}[/itex])[itex]/[/itex]dt is a double integral, but if I evaluate I just end up with stuff in the denominator, which does not match with the answer.

I have no intuition for dot products and only a passable understanding of integrals, mathematically. I understand what they do, what they are for in layman's terms, but expressing it in mathematical terms is my perennial weakness. For the love of Congressman Weiner, help me to understand!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
hey 2 thumbs guy you can write a whole equation in tex eg.
[tex]\Phi_B = \int \vec{B} \bullet \vec{dA}[/tex]
 
Last edited:
note that B is a vector, so has a direction along the axis of the cylinder, call it the z direction
[tex]\vec{B} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 0 \\ \mu_0 n I \end{pmatrix}[/tex]

similarly the element of area has a direction normal to the surface, as you are considering a cross section of the sphere, this will also be in the z direction, and can consider a scalar area element dA = dxdy
[tex]\vec{dA} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 0 \\ dA \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 0 \\ dxdy \end{pmatrix}[/tex]
 
then the integral becomes
[tex]\Phi_B = \int \vec{B} \bullet \vec{dA} <br /> = \int \mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2 \pi ft) dA= \int \int \mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2 \pi ft) dxdy[/tex]

Note the integral is over x & y not t, in fact the integrand doesn't depend on x or y, so just evaluates to the area of the circle, (A), multiplied by the integrand:
[tex]\int \int \mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2 \pi ft) dxdy = \mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2 \pi ft) \int \int dxdy = \mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2 \pi ft) A[/tex]
 
Thanks for the tex tips, lane, and the re-introduction of the dot product. But I guess I'm confused on why the B vector and dxdy are both on the z axis. Shouldn't they be perpendicular? I thought the area vector pointed normally from the axis, hence our concern for sin, and ultimately -cos.

And what you suggest mean that [tex]\mu_0 n I_0 Sin(2πft) A = πr^2 μ_0 nI_0 Sin(2πft)[/tex], which doesn't give me a negative cosine as I would expect.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K