Integration by parts in spacetime

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of integration by parts in the context of spacetime, particularly focusing on integrals defined over a Cauchy surface that separates the future and past regions of a spacetime manifold. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and implications of this technique within the framework of relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a paper discussing an integral on spacetime and questions the formula used for integration by parts in relativity, noting the significance of the Cauchy surface as a boundary.
  • Another participant argues that the discussion is fundamentally about the mathematical technique of integration by parts, stating the general formula and relating it to the context of spacetime integrals.
  • A participant clarifies that the vector n is the future-pointing unit normal vector field on the Cauchy surface and inquires about its role in the integration result.
  • One participant provides the result of the integration by parts, involving the Lie derivative along n, and asks if there is a specific rule for integration by parts when using Lie derivatives.
  • Another participant suggests that the Lie derivative follows the Leibniz rule, proposing a form of integration by parts under the assumption that boundary contributions are negligible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the discussion, with some emphasizing the mathematical technique itself while others focus on its application in the context of relativity. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific rules for integration by parts involving Lie derivatives.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the contributions from the boundary and the specific conditions under which the integration by parts formula applies in this context.

naima
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In this paper
we have p18 an integral on space time M. The author takes a 3 dimensional space like Cauchy surface ##\Sigma## which separates M in two regions, the future and the past of ##\Sigma##. He gets so the sum of two integrals on these regions. He writes then let us integrate each of them by parts. The fact that ##\Sigma## is a boundary for these regions is obvious. the vector n orthogonal to the boundary occurs in the result but i think that this uses the (- +++) metric. What is the formula used to integrate by parts in relativity?
 
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This is not really a matter of "integration by parts in spacetime" or "in relativity", it is just "integration by parts", a mathematical technique. The idea of integration by parts is that [itex]\int u dv= uv- \int v du[/itex]. Here, the integrals are of the form [itex]\int f \psi dvol[/itex]. What they are doing is taking [itex]u= \psi[/itex] and [itex]dv= f dvol[/itex] while using the physics fact that a conservative force is the derivative of the potential energy function so [itex]v= E_n[/itex] and [itex]du= \nabla_n\psi[/itex].
 
You can read that n is the future-pointing unit normal vector field on ##\Sigma##
How does n appear in the result (it needs the metric)?
Thanks
 
Last edited:
The result is
##\int_\Sigma (\Phi \nabla_n \Psi - \Psi \nabla_n \Phi) d\Sigma##
Here ##\nabla_n## is the Lie derivative along n.
Is there a rule for integation by parts with Lie derivatives?
 
Lie derivative obeys to Leibniz rule so I think will be a integration by parts, if boundary doesn't contribute I think it is ## \int_{\Sigma}\Phi\nabla_{n}\Psi\,d\,\sigma=-\int_{\Sigma}\Psi\nabla_{n}\Phi\,d\,\Sigma##
 

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