Ionization and Nodes in the Hydrogen Wave Function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the hydrogen atom's wave function, particularly focusing on the radial wave function, ionization processes, and the nature of electron movement within quantum mechanics. It includes theoretical considerations, conceptual clarifications, and questions regarding the behavior of electrons in relation to nodes in the wave function.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how an electron can traverse regions where the radial wave function is zero, suggesting that the uncertainty principle implies limited observation ranges.
  • Another participant asserts that in eigenstates, the electron does not move, indicating that these states are defined under ideal conditions without external influences.
  • There is a discussion about the speed of the electron during ionization, with one participant estimating it to be around 0.008c based on kinetic energy calculations, while another suggests that typical propagation speeds might be around 0.01c, though the significance of this is uncertain.
  • Participants explore the concept of a wave function for a transitioning electron, with one proposing a mathematical expression involving initial and final wave functions.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of the electron's position, emphasizing that without measurement, the concept of position is not meaningful, and observing the electron alters its wave function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the movement of the electron in eigenstates and the implications of measurement on the wave function. There is no consensus on the interpretation of electron behavior in relation to nodes and ionization processes.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on idealized conditions for eigenstates, the ambiguity in defining electron speed during ionization, and the unresolved nature of the wave function's behavior during transitions.

Jamison Lahman
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As you can see from figure 4.4 from Griffiths book on QM, the radial wave function of the hydrogen atom has clear points where ## |R_{nl} (r)|^2 = 0 ##. My question is three fold:
First, how is the electron able to traverse this region? My intuition is that with the uncertainty principle, the electron will only ever be observed at ##r \pm \Delta r## for which r satisfies ## |R_{nl} (r)|^2 = 0 ## though this is not as satisfying as I would like. Surely it would be possible (even if extraordinarily unlikely) to observe an electron at this specific point.
Second, how fast does the electron move during ionization? My initial guess was c since it is emitting/absorbing a photon, however ## v = \sqrt{\frac{2 E_k}{m_e}}=\sqrt{\frac{2 \times 13.6eV}{510eV/c^2}} \cong .008c ## which seems reasonable.
Third, is there a wave function for a transitioning electron? Perhaps ## P = \left< \psi' | Q | \psi \right>## where ##\psi'## and ##\psi## are the overall initial and final wave functions?
Thanks
 
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In those eigenstates, the electron does not move - it does not traverse anything.

Those eigenstates are only exact with a single point-like charge, an electron, and nothing else in the universe. Every external influence will disturb them and break the symmetry and the general zero-crossing.

Jamison Lahman said:
Second, how fast does the electron move during ionization?
The speed of an electron cannot be expressed as number. Changes in the wave function in the process of ionizing hydrogen might have something like 0.01 c as typical propagation speed, but I'm not sure how meaningful that is either.

You can calculate the wave function of an electron in the combination of the field from the nucleus and an external electromagnetic field. It will get a component that is still at the nucleus and a component that leaves the nucleus.
 
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mfb said:
In those eigenstates, the electron does not move - it does not traverse anything.
Could you expand a little more on this? Is this like the electron is a "cloud" and that the electron is somewhere there but not known until observed and the act of observing it alters where the node is and then the electron goes back to being a "cloud"?
The rest is clear. Thank you.
 
Jamison Lahman said:
and that the electron is somewhere there but not known until observed
No. Without a position measurement, "the position of the electron" is a meaningless concept (apart from "it is in this atom").

If you observe the position, you get a completely new wavefunction, localized at some random point. If you then stop interacting with it, the wavefunction will spread out again, but this time in a superposition of many energy eigenstates.
 

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