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The Iraqi government, under severe military pressure from insurgents, is apparently on the verge of collapse. They requested US military aid, but, were refused. Is it just me, or does anyone else find this disturbing?
PhysicoRaj said:I'm with you. For what reason were they refused?
Dotini said:It is said the administration fears to be seen supporting al-Maliki. They would rather be seen as supporting the Iraqi people.
Additionally, supporting the Shiite al-Maliki could be portrayed as supporting Iran, another no-no.
But the most inhibiting choice of all would be the taking of sides in a burgeoning civil war.
Even so, it is seldom easy to nail down another person's reasons, i.e., motives, for their actions or in this case, inaction.
SteamKing said:It would be nice if that were truly the administration's position. I would settle for the Obama administration supporting the American people for a change, instead of lecturing and hectoring us like we were children.
Since the insurgents are Sunni, and if they take control of Baghdad like looks possible, I think the possibility of another Iran-Iraq conflict increases significantly. With the Obama administration recently cutting secret deals with Iran over sanctions against Iranian pursuit of nuclear weapons, I don't think the fear of supporting al-Maliki passes the smell test, even for this administration.
Sigh, I never thought I'd say this, but Obama and his administration make me wish Jimmy Carter was still president. A six-year old child could come up with a better foreign policy than Kerry or Clinton, and still have time to be a better president after taking his nap after lunch.
edward said:I get a kick of how this has so quickly become Obama's/Kerry's fault for some people. The radical religion driven insurgents, sometimes referred to as militants, never have been open to any countries suggestions. Their wars and sectarian religious rivalries go back a thousand years.
The only thing that they understand is blood in the streets, especially if it is their blood and I don't think the American people are willing to go through that again in Iraq.
There is the option of destroying the ISIS advance by force. Unlike dug in, ill-connected insurgencies, here, for the moment, they are out in the open, concentrated along a single route of advance. Distaste for more involvement is not the same as the option being physically unavailable.Ryan_m_b said:It's really hard to see what any other country could do. ...
mheslep said:There is the option of destroying the ISIS advance by force. Unlike dug in, ill-connected insurgencies, here, for the moment, they are out in the open, concentrated along a single route of advance. Distaste for more involvement does not also mean the option is not available.
The Iraqi army outnumbered ISIS by about 40:1 in Mosul. Yet the army still turned tail and ran — ran so fast, in fact, as to leave some of their tanks and helicopters behind.
I note the ISIS leader Badhdadi was captured in 2005 and held in US custody for several years in camp Bucca in southern Iraq and later released, which shows the theoretical downside of releasing the five Taliban.
mheslep said:There is the option of destroying the ISIS advance by force.
The Zulu Wars. Cause: the Zulus. Zulus exterminated. End of Zulu Wars.
AlephZero said:For some reason, that line of strategic thinking always reminds me of one of the more politically incorrect jokes from the spoof history textbook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That. One of the milestones in the British "conquest" of Africa in the 19th century:
The Zulu Wars. Cause: the Zulus. Zulus exterminated. End of Zulu Wars.
Since then, the Maliki government has had a legacy of exclusion with respect to Iraqi minorities. These same minorities are now supporting the ISIS forces. If the government had been more inclusive, perhaps ISIS may not have been able to invade from Syria.Throughout the discussions, Iraqi leaders have adamantly refused to give U.S. troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans have refused to stay without it.
SteamKing said:<snip> but when you intervene to try to alter the status quo one day <snip>
Certainly one does so at the risk of life and limb to be friendly toward such a fickle and inconstant ally.
If Obama had been honest and said he had no clue about the kind of foreign policy which would defuse tensions in the region, that would have been better than claiming that the other guy didn't know what he was doing, and that his, Obama's, approach to the politics of region would be an improvement.
This is why the administration's approach to this region has been so puzzling and dismaying. The US did fight a couple of wars in the region, if not to make things better, at least to keep them from getting worse. Obama has been tripping all over himself to get out of Baghdad as fast as he can, essentially saying, "Well, we tried, but it didn't make any difference that we spent all this blood and treasure here."
They have captured large amounts of cash from banks in Iraq which can be used to fund new terror networks worldwide.
I think he meant Iraq looking at the US as an "ally". Did Iraq really ever consider us an "ally"? Or a forced temporary bedfellow?lisab said:At what time was Iraq *ever* our ally?
The Bush and her accompanying battle group of ships "were in the region and ready for any tasking," said Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary. Kirby would not confirm several reports that the Bush had already moved into the Persian Gulf.
lisab said:At what time was Iraq *ever* our ally?
By "other guy", do you mean Bush II? Because the evidence is overwhelming that he, in fact, did not know what he was doing! Remember when that administration claimed the WMD, and that we would be "greeted as liberators"? Everything about our Iraq "adventure" has been a horrible error which is attributable to GWB.
Once you realize you're on the road to hell, you should do everything you can to get off the road to hell. The fact that so much "blood and treasure" has been spent *does not* justify further spending of blood and treasure.
Do you have a link for that?
Look, ISIS and groups like that should be the sworn enemies all free and law-abiding societies, to be engaged and destroyed anywhere they pop up. The fact that reportedly several of their leaders are graduates of 'Gitmo U' is all the more humiliating and infuriating.
edward said:Actually we know of only one detainee who is named named above. He was detained at camp Bucca Iraq, not Guantanamo.
SteamKing said:In the words of former Secy of State Clinton, "What difference, at this point, does it make?" He was off the board, now he's back in the fray. And he's not the first detainee to be released from detention to turn up on a battlefield. The Taliban 5 are tanned, rested, and ready to go, in Afghanistan or wherever.
edward said:Tanned and rested after a 12 year vacation at the Guantanamo Hilton? The scheduled activities there included sleep deprivation, water boarding, and a lot of other nasty treatment.
I honestly believe that all along our most sincere motives involving Iraq have always been tainted with crude oil.
Sorry I'm late, but can you provide a source for who is saying the Iraqi government is on the verge of collapse. The only links I can find are blogs, and articles from 2012.Chronos said:The Iraqi government, under severe military pressure from insurgents, is apparently on the verge of collapse.
I don't find it disturbing. What I found disturbing was the fact that 800 ISIL members scared 30,000 Iraqi troops out of Mosul. That led me to conclude, that something's fishy.They requested US military aid, but, were refused. Is it just me, or does anyone else find this disturbing?
bolding mineThe one sentence that explains why Iraq is falling apart
Soldiers have been deserting in large numbers for some time. In Mosul, soldiers didn't run because they were doomed to defeat at the hands of a much smaller ISIS force. They ran because they didn't want to fight.
SteamKing said:As the USMC instructs their recruits, "You can sleep when your dead!"
OmCheeto said:Ok, back from my nap. I have another question regarding the OP:
That was date stamped 6/12/2014. The two articles you sited as references, are date stamped 6/13/2014*. Is everyone but me clairvoyant, or was "on the verge of collapse" something everyone independently decided?
If so, it appears just mentioning that has shamed Maliki into taking action:
(bolding mine)
Good job!
*The Mashable article is actually date stamped "1 day ago", but looking at the html source code, you'll find the date: "pub_date":"06/13/2014"
I actually didn't have too much of a problem with the McClatchy article, other than the date stamp.SteamKing said:I don't see how any newspaper, radio and television news coverage, wire service, etc. can meet your standards.
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In any event, one should not read just one article on such a sprawling subject as Middle East events. OmCheeto had apparently emerged from his den to see if there were six more weeks of summer left if he saw his shadow. He's free to consult the websites of CNN, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Daily Telegraph in London, Pravda, Izvestiya, the Daily Planet or the Baghdad Gazette if he wants more information. Even al-Jazeera has probably mentioned this story by now.
ISIL: Rising power in Iraq and Syria
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Despite earning the fury of even the core al-Qaeda leadership for its methods, ISIL has expanded to control vast areas of Iraq and Syria as it seeks to establish a new Islamic caliphate.
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Iran is helping Iraq? hmmm...What the Hell Is Happening in Iraq Right Now?
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Iran, on the other hand, deployed Revolutionary Guard forces to help Iraqi troops, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Starting to look like a blitzkrieg. But taking the Turkish Consulate General, did not strike me as a smart strategic move. But then again, maybe they have that, "Ala Aqbar! Let me die fighting, and be a martyr!" attitude. Suicide, by pissing everyone off. Probably not though. But then again...Two more towns fall to armed fighters in Iraq...
And on the second day, ISIL stormed Ankara's consulate in Mosul and detained 49 Turkish citizens - including the Consulate General, Ozturk Yilmaz, a former advisor to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. There is little immediate prospect of Turkish intervention, unless ISIL begins executing hostages...
Now we know who their leader is. Mean little rascal.The fierce ambition of ISIL's Baghdadi
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But his methods are extreme and his actions repugnant to many - captured enemy fighters are shot or decapitated and their deaths recorded for the Internet.
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SteamKing said:Well, like all such fast-breaking news stories
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and Iran is reported to be sending troops to Iraq to fight the Sunni insurgents.
11 facts that explain the escalating crisis in Iraq
9. Iran is already involved, and this conflict could get much bigger
Iran has sent two battalions of Iranian Revolutionary Guards to help Iraq fight ISIS. These aren't just any old Iranian troops. They're Quds Force, the Guards' elite special operations group. The Quds Force is one of the most effective military forces in the Middle East, a far cry from the undisciplined and disorganized Iraqi forces that fled from a much smaller ISIS force in Mosul. One former CIA officer called Quds Force commander Qassem Suleimani "the single most powerful operative in the Middle East today." Suleimani, the Journal reports, is currently helping the Iraqi government "manage the crisis" in Baghdad.
OmCheeto said:Ho hum, I should take more naps...
From another article I read yesterday:
The kids at VOX are a bit young, so I wouldn't put all my trust in them. My Russian friend's analysis of Max Fisher's analysis of the Ukrainian mess was, that Max didn't know what he was talking about. argh!
SteamKing said:... if you're still interested, here is a link to an article in the New York Times which lays out with pitchers 'n' words the progress of the ISIS insurgents last week south toward Baghdad from Mosul in northern Iraq:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/15/w....®ion=Footer&module=TopNews&pgtype=article
ISIL Twitter terror: gruesome Iraq photos and candid selfies of jihadist group members
The photographs, released on one of ISIL’s own Twitter feeds, show dozens of Shiite soldiers being driven in trucks to a rural area where they are forced to lie facedown in the dirt with their hands tied behind their back.
In the next frame, a Sunni militiaman appears to execute them in a hail of automatic gunfire that kicks up the dirt near their heads. The next frame shows a pile of lifeless bodies.
Ryan_m_b said:The BBC is reporting that the Iraqi government has formally requested the US to launch airstrikes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27905849
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I realize the US has a vested interest in supporting the Iraqi government given the last ten years but I'm honestly not convinced that any intervention which chooses one side over the other won't just make matters worse down the line.
I'm not saying this as some sort of cultural guilt trip but not understanding the current and historical realities is not going to result in a good understanding of the current conflict.
The unrest in Iraq and Syria can be attributed to a combination of factors, including political and religious divisions, economic disparity, and external influence. The invasion of Iraq by the United States in 2003, the Arab Spring uprisings in 2011, and the ongoing Syrian Civil War have all contributed to the current state of unrest in the region.
ISIS, ISIL, and Daesh are all acronyms for the same extremist group that has gained control over parts of Iraq and Syria. ISIS stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, while ISIL stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Daesh is an Arabic term that is used to refer to the group in a derogatory manner. The group has also been referred to as the Islamic State (IS) or the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS).
ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has been able to gain power in Iraq and Syria due to a combination of factors, including the power vacuum created by the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, the ongoing civil war in Syria, and the group's ability to exploit sectarian and ethnic divisions in the region. Additionally, the group has been able to gain resources and recruits through its control of oil fields and its use of social media to spread its message.
The unrest in Iraq and Syria has had a significant impact on the region and the world. It has resulted in the displacement of millions of people, destabilized neighboring countries, and led to a humanitarian crisis. The rise of ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has also posed a threat to global security, with the group carrying out terrorist attacks in various countries.
The international community has taken various measures to address the situation in Iraq and Syria, including military intervention, providing humanitarian aid, and supporting diplomatic efforts to find a resolution to the conflicts. The United Nations has also been actively involved in efforts to provide aid and facilitate peace talks. However, the situation remains complex and ongoing efforts are necessary to achieve stability and peace in the region.