News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chronos
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The Iraqi government is facing imminent collapse under insurgent pressure, with ISIS reportedly taking control of Mosul. The U.S. has refused military aid to Iraq, primarily to avoid appearing to support Prime Minister al-Maliki, whose Shiite leadership could be seen as backing Iran. Concerns are rising that if insurgents gain control of Baghdad, it could lead to increased conflict with Iran. The Iraqi army, despite being well-trained and outnumbering ISIS, has shown reluctance to engage, leaving military equipment behind in their retreat. The situation is evolving into a civil war, raising fears of broader regional instability and the potential resurgence of terrorism globally.
  • #51
http://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631

Alghorani is convinced that members of ISIS were released strategically by Assad. “From the first days of the revolution (in March 2011), Assad denounced the organisation as being the work of radical Salafists, so he released the Salafists he had created in his prisons to justify the claim ... If you do not have an enemy, you create an enemy.”
...
“Al Qaeda are extremists. They’re terrorists, they’re everything you want to say about them, but they’re operating to a central creed.” Al-Saud said. “ISIS are simply a bunch of ignorant young men who have been brainwashed into thinking what they’re doing is right.”

ISIS looks to be a mile wide and a inch thick. Assad had no problem handling them and Iraq shouldn't either if anyone there actually had a backbone.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #52
Dotini said:
That is a bold statement! Could it be true?

Not long ago, the middle east was dominated by cruel secular dictators who kept the lid down tight. In places including Iraq minority rights were protected, alcohol was served and women could wear make-up and western clothes.

Now many cruel secular dictators have been swept away in a series of pro-democracy revolutions collectively dubbed the "Arab spring". That this trend was supported and encouraged by the US and pro-democracy NGO's is not in much doubt, is it?

Are we now to accept that ideologically driven policies were wrong and a return to pragmatism or utilitarianism is warranted, and more enlightened?

No, this statement can't be true. It implies that some ethnic groups did not mature to democracy, thus is racist. And racist statements can't be true. Q.E.D. ;)

I think that the USA was slowly encouraging democracy through NGOs, however later become somewhat reluctant. I'd rather say that it undermined govs on its own, however it was more a mixture of different causes that exploded together. Anyway, (except Iraq) there was no good choice - when before '79 the USA was supporting some local ruler in Iran it backfired in possibly the most disastrous way.

Anyway, the USA had good experience with already developed Germany and Japan which had their period of curable madness, and expected that the same can be done in the Middle East. (to be honest I also used to believe that) Instead someone has to build countries in tribal societies from scratch.
 
  • #54
mheslep said:
It appears you are confusing some ISIS leadership mentioned in that article with the group at large. Since ISIS is reported to control dozen Syrian cities, I don't think it is fair to say Assad "handled" them.

The Syrian leadership with Russian advisers IMO are running a smart game with ISIS by playing enemy against enemy by letting them run the operation on border desert with Iraq so they will stay out of his hair within his power base cities while he handles our rag-tag Syrian National Coalition forces.

From your link.
The Syrian National Coalition, the main western-backed opposition group, quickly dismissed the raids as "a ridiculous decoy". Assad, it claimed, "aims through this fake air strike against limited Isis administrative centres to send a message to the international community and to rebuild trust with it, after its close relationship with Isis was exposed".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-boosting-al-Qaeda-with-secret-oil-deals.html

The Syrian regime of President Bashar al-Assad has funded and co-operated with al-Qaeda in a complex double game even as the terrorists fight Damascus, according to new allegations by Western intelligence agencies, rebels and al-Qaeda defectors.

Jabhat al-Nusra, and the even more extreme Islamic State of Iraq and al-Shams (ISIS), the two al-Qaeda affiliates operating in Syria, have both been financed by selling oil and gas from wells under their control to and through the regime, intelligence sources have told The Daily Telegraph.
 
Last edited:
  • #55
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28042309

The funds would help Syrians defend against forces aligned with President Bashar al-Assad, the White House said.

The aid would also counter Islamists militants such as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (Isis), it added.

Isis's advance in neighbouring Iraq has led some in Congress to press Mr Obama to take action.

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20140310/NEWS/303100015/Report-U-S-troops-training-Iraqis-Jordan
 
  • #56
What actions would some in congress want Obama to take?

At a closed-door briefing Tuesday night, senators were told it would be two or three weeks before the Pentagon had completed its first assessment.

"The president needs to make a recommendation on a plan to make sure that our people are safe and to ensure that [ISIS] isn't in a position where it has established an Islamic caliphate that it can threaten our country," said Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H. "The reality is, I'm not sure we have two weeks for him to make a decision on the Iraqi security situation."

Demanding that the president move more quickly appears to be the only action Congress is going to take. When asked if lawmakers would go off on holiday and leave the Iraq situation to the president, McCain shrugged his shoulders.

"Apparently," he said.

Obama has no magic wand to wave. This is all politics as usual.


http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/republicans-warn-obama-doesn-t-have-two-weeks-to-mull-iraq-20140625
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #57
I'm rather annoyed republicans are content to pay out rope to Obama on this issue. Politics at its worst.
 
  • #58
Maybe the best solution would be to split Iraq in three. One piece for Kurds, one piece for Sunnis, and one piece for the Shi'ite people. Of course I think it should happen at an international negotiation table with the involvement of: Kurds, Sunni Iraqis, Shi'ite Iraqis, Iran, Syria, USA, Russia and China.
 
  • #59
TheAustrian said:
Maybe the best solution would be to split Iraq in three. One piece for Kurds, one piece for Sunnis, and one piece for the Shi'ite people. Of course I think it should happen at an international negotiation table with the involvement of: Kurds, Sunni Iraqis, Shi'ite Iraqis, Iran, Syria, USA, Russia and China.

Although I agree with you, about splitting the country, I believe it is not acceptable to the rest of the nations of the world, as it would set a logical precedent. North America would probably choose to rearrange as the United States of Canada, Jesusland, and the Republic of Texas. The populace of the Gaza Strip would probably want to expand into Egypt, as that area strikes me as being "full". I really don't know what the deal is with Israel. Tel Aviv was founded on a pretty much unpopulated sandy shoreline, and now everyone wants the current occupants out. The rest of Israel strikes me as little better, geographically.

Wait. What are we talking about? Iraq. hmmmm...

I started to post something on this thread the other day, but someone interrupted me. It appears I didn't jot down my notes that day, so I'll try and regurgitate it from memory:

This reminds me a bit of the Northern Ireland conflict: Same god, different jersey colors.

I often see different religious sects to being comparable to sports teams. Everything is fine and dandy, until one side sees the other side winning, and then everyone wishes the toilets had been bolted down better.

Humans are funny, in a sad kind of way.

But looking over the wiki article on "The Troubles", it would appear that I had no clue what was going on there either.

The Troubles began in the late 1960s and is considered by many to have ended with the Belfast Good Friday Agreement of 1998. However, sporadic violence has continued since then.

The conflict was primarily a political one, but it also had an ethnic or sectarian dimension, although it was not a religious conflict. The key issues at stake were the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the relationship between its two main communities. Unionists and loyalists, who are mostly Ulster Protestants, generally want Northern Ireland to remain within the United Kingdom. Irish nationalists and republicans, who are mostly Catholics, generally want it to leave the United Kingdom and join a united Ireland.

hmmm... Sounds familiar.


-------------------------------
as usual, I will not be offended if you delete my flippant comments
 
  • #60
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry.

ISIL declares new 'Islamic caliphate'
Rebels fighting in Iraq under ISIL banner announce creation of Islamic state, extending from Diyala to Syria's Aleppo.

Diyala is an Iraqi province which shares borders with Baghdad and Iran.
Aleppo is the largest city in Syria.
I mention this, as I'm somewhat bad with names.

hmmm... What else do people think?

Charles Lister said:
Put simply, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has declared war on al-Qaida. While it is now inevitable that members and prominent supporters of al-Qaida and its affiliates will rapidly move to denounce Baghdadi and this announcement, it is the long-term implications that may prove more significant
(ref)

Good. Let them kill each other.

Who was it that said; "... let God sort them out."?*

As former military, and current softhearted guy, who takes in malnourished stray cats and downtrodden pigeons, I find it somewhat cowardly, that people involve civilians in their conflicts.

-----------------------------
*Arnaud Amalric. In France no less. Another sectarian war. How appropriate.
ok2d
 
  • #61
OmCheeto said:
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry.



Diyala is an Iraqi province which shares borders with Baghdad and Iran.
Aleppo is the largest city in Syria.
I mention this, as I'm somewhat bad with names.

hmmm... What else do people think?

(ref)

Good. Let them kill each other.

Who was it that said; "... let God sort them out."?*

As former military, and current softhearted guy, who takes in malnourished stray cats and downtrodden pigeons, I find it somewhat cowardly, that people involve civilians in their conflicts.

-----------------------------
*Arnaud Amalric. In France no less. Another sectarian war. How appropriate.
ok2d


Yes, I think it's wise to keep our military out of this. Humanitarian aid, sure, but choosing sides would be nuts.
 
  • #62
ISIL has apparently removed the last two words from their name on all documentation and is now calling itself the Islamic State. I found their latest document quite impenetrable (it may be the translation but probably is just that it's chock full of religious exaltations) but the last paragraph on page 4 and first of page 5 are quite revealing. I can't copy and paste for some reason but they claim the territory from Aleppo in north west Syria to Diyala in Iraq. Shaira law has purportedly been introduced and courts set up to settle disputes.

Interestingly I've seen interviews with citizens living in ISIL controlled areas who have pointed out that little for them on the ground has changed. Some have said things are better with government roadblocks between areas finally dismantled. It's a messy and dynamic situation though so I doubt a full picture will be available for a while/
 
  • #63
Ryan_m_b said:
... I found their latest document quite impenetrable ...

I'm glad I'm not alone.

My interpretation of, or a quote from, each page:

Page 1: Cover sheet. Title: “This is the promise of god”
Page 2: God told us to do this
Page 3: We were naked and ate beetles before God showed up
Page 4: God likes Sunnis and hates Shia
Page 5: God said we should do this
Page 6: “…you will own the earth, and the east and west will submit to you”.
Page 7: You will obey your master
Page 8: “We will defend it – if Allah wills – as long as it exists and as long as one of us remains,
and [if it vanishes] we will bring it back – if Allah wills – upon the methodology of prophethood.”
Page 9: “And if anyone wants to break the ranks, split his head with bullets and empty its insides, whoever he may be.”
Page 10: Happy Ramadan

My response:

Page 1-5: Ok
Page 6: Tears for Fears is god; “Everybody wants to rule the world”
Page 7: Very Vaderesque
Page 8: if*
Page 9: Don’t remember bullets in the Quran. Might be my memory…..
Page 10: Same to you!

-------------------------------
* My sincerest thanks to micromass, for the quiz yesterday.
 
  • #64
Eric Hoffer's "True Believer" was recently printed in Arabic.

http://xrdarabia.org/2010/04/11/translating-eric-hoffer/
Eric Hoffer was a bit of an oddity. Self-educated, he preferred physical labor over a desk-bound job. He was also non-ideological, instead looking objectively at the social conditions that led masses to adopt, lock-stock-and-barrel, ideological reasoning that promised to resolve their problems, but in the end only added to them. And at the cost of millions of lives. Those killed as a result were not necessarily followers, but instead simply people who were seen at the time to be impediments to the ‘greater good’.

I wonder if Mark Twain's "War Prayer" could follow ?
http://warprayer.org/

good delivery about 6 minutes into this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYIRbmxHpc
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes 1 person
  • #65
jim hardy said:
Eric Hoffer's "True Believer" was recently printed in Arabic.

http://xrdarabia.org/2010/04/11/translating-eric-hoffer/
Quite nice to see a positive article like that.

concluding paragraph from jim's link said:
Nevertheless, having Hoffer’s True Believers available in Arabic is an enormous step forward. It offers important ideas that should become part of the thinking of not only governments, but individuals. Far from ivory tower academics, it is a voice from the ground. It is a voice that should become part of the conversations and dialogues that compose Arab reforms.

Nice to see some people in the Middle East contemplating the possibility that not all westerners are kuffār. (infidels) I suppose some of us are, but not all.

I wonder if Mark Twain's "War Prayer" could follow ?
http://warprayer.org/

good delivery about 6 minutes into this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYIRbmxHpc

I think it follows. I've never heard of it before.

Interesting personal note about it on wiki:
wiki on the war prayer said:
The piece was left unpublished by Mark Twain at his death in April 1910, largely due to pressure from his family, who feared that the story would be considered sacrilegious. Twain's publisher and other friends also discouraged him from publishing it. According to one account, his illustrator Dan Beard asked him if he would publish it anyway, and Twain replied, "No, I have told the whole truth in that, and only dead men can tell the truth in this world. It can be published after I am dead." Mindful of public reaction, he considered that he had a family to support and did not want to be seen as a lunatic or fanatic.

I can totally relate. I really wanted to speak my mind where I used to work, but I had mortgage payments to make. On a related note, a story which I'm sure I've told at least 10 times:

I was hot and heavy commenting on Al Jazeera's Facebook page several years ago, regarding something about to take place in Palestine, during which, I started getting friend requests from people in the area. Some of them never posted. I decided later, that I was speaking for them. Americans have the luxury of speaking their mind with relative impunity on the internet. Unfortunately, speaking your mind in many of those countries won't result in your loss of ability to make a house payment, it results in the loss of your head.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #66
The average resident of that unfortunate area does not think of himself or herself as an “Iraqi”. If asked for their allegiance, they will identify themselves by their religious affiliation. If you press further, they will give a tribal or family grouping. Press again and they will give the town of their birth.

They view the national boundaries of Iraq as lines drawn on the map by foreigners (British and French) and enforced militarily by foreigners without the consent of the local people, and therefore unworthy of respect. As one Baghdadi said to me, “I wipe the soles of my shoes on such lines!” This is a gross insult in the Arab culture.

You should not expect “Iraqis” to act for “love of country”. Their loyalties lie elsewhere.
 
  • #67
TheAustrian said:
Maybe the best solution would be to split Iraq in three. One piece for Kurds, one piece for Sunnis, and one piece for the Shi'ite people. Of course I think it should happen at an international negotiation table with the involvement of: Kurds, Sunni Iraqis, Shi'ite Iraqis, Iran, Syria, USA, Russia and China.

It worked in India, but it was very, very bloody.

Certainly, the present boundaries of the state bear no relation to the wishes of the local inhabitants, being the result of power grabs by Britain and France after WWI.
 
  • #68
OmCheeto said:
Who was it that said; "... let God sort them out."?*

I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".
 
  • #69
klimatos said:
It worked in India, but it was very, very bloody.
Well a border was drawn, two independent states recognized. I don't know whether "worked" applies yet.
 
  • #70
klimatos said:
I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".

OFF TOPIC
Richard never captured Jerusalem. He came to within sight of the city but never actually set foot in it.

I think this incident might have happened in Acre or Jaffa though.
 
  • #71
klimatos said:
I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".

This quotation is actually from Arnaud Amalric when dealing not with Muslims, but with Cathars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric
 
  • #72
Ryan_m_b said:
Personally I think that putting as much political pressure on prime minister al-Maliki to step down and allow the proper formation of a unity government is the best way to curb the sectarian violence. That could ultimately draw support away from ISIS. Unfortunately though it might be a case of too little too late.
I'm not impressed by al-Maliki. However, he was elected "properly".

And he'd be replaced by a democratically elected prime minister; elected by a country where the majority of the population is Shiite. The majority may not hate Sunnis, but, in a country that was recently ruled by a Sunni dictator that killed Shiites, there's enough of a combination of hatred, weariness, and just a plain desire for a Shiite led government that sticking up for Sunnis isn't exactly a political winner in Iraqi politics.

Iraq's ethnic problems run deeper than just al-Maliki. They're likely to continue for decades...

... which is a lot longer than ISIS will last. They may be able to invade Iraq successfully, but maintaining the peace will probably be a lot tougher than the invasion was.
 
  • #74
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...-s-navy-planes-drop-bombs-isis-forces-n175941
The United States dropped laser-guided bombs on ISIS artillery in Iraq on Friday, the Pentagon said — the beginning of airstrikes threatened a day earlier by President Barack Obama.

The bombs, 500 pounds each, were dropped by two Navy F-18 fighter jets near Erbil, the strategically important city that serves as the Kurdish capital, and where the United States has a consulate. ISIS was using the artillery to shell Kurdish forces defending Erbil, the Pentagon said.

The fighter jets took off from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush, in the Persian Gulf. The mission marked a return to U.S. military engagement in Iraq, three years after Obama removed U.S. forces.
 
  • #75
Generally I'm against foreign intervention these days, but I can see the need for this. IS, or ISIS, or whatever...these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?

But if we can speed their downfall a bit, I won't lose any sleep over it. Especially if we can do it from high altitude.

IMO.
 
  • #76
I guess Russia lent them a hand too, back in in June..

http://rt.com/news/169144-iraq-russian-jets-arrive/
June 29
The first delivery of Russian Sukhoi fighter jets arrived in Iraq on Saturday, the country’s Defense Ministry said. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is hoping the jets will make a key difference in the fight against ISIS...

...Our Russian friends have also sent their own experts to assist us in preparing the aircraft...

Glad to see we agree on something .
 
  • #77
lisab said:
.these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?...

IMO.

Well the Romans managed to crucify people for a thousand years or so
 
  • #79
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310
 
  • #80
Dotini said:
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

If you look at it from such perspective, you may also start to wonder why in Iraq, instead of a moderately cruel and effective dictator, is an anarchy with some rituals of democracy.
 
  • #82
Dotini said:
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.
 
  • #83
mheslep said:
Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.

I agree with you, I don't think we anything to do with directly 'training' the ISIS fighters. It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training. I see most of their state backing coming from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey and Qatar who were arming ISIS in Syria long before they captured huge caches of Iraqi weapons but their own criminal activities like extortion, kidnapping, robberies, and smuggling have made them the wealthiest terrorist group on the planet so recruitment is easy for someone willing to pull a trigger.
 
Last edited:
  • #84
nsaspook said:
It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training.

"Of course, no one joins a failing or a fading prospect, so the victory of ISIS, or the success that they've experienced in the past few days, acts as almost an amplifier, as a clarion call to those who want to be part of the struggle,"

-----------------

The last great call to arms for Muslim fighters was in the 1980s, after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. About 20,000 foreign fighters traveled there, most of them from the Gulf states.

This time, while many of the volunteers are coming from the Middle East, thousands of Westerners are showing up, too.

The largest portion is coming from Britain, U.S. officials say. The French government puts the French total at 700 to 800. The latest tally of Americans: about 100.

http://www.npr.org/2014/06/28/326313364/western-fighters-answer-mideast-extremists-clarion-call

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.
 
  • #85
Dotini said:
My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.
Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?
 
  • #86
mheslep said:
Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?

No, I provide a source that hundreds of French, Americans and British are directly involved in ISIS, some ISIS fighters were former FSA trained by US, French and British trainers, and I assert that CNN reports some are war college trained.
 
  • #87
Dotini said:

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.


I'm sure many have had some professional training but I don't see much military strategic planning by the ISIS leadership or commanders. A scorched Earth policy of genocide to non-believers is a simple tactic to capture territory fast but it's usually counterproductive to long term stability but most don't care and as long as the brutal tactics are successful they won't stop unless they are killed.

IMO they are more like a Drug Lords army high on blood lust. We can't easily get the leadership but if we make this 'adventure' less of a cakewalk for the troops in the field that's worth the effort.
 
Last edited:
  • #88
  • #89
Dotini said:
You might enjoy this article from the NY Times which shows ISIS battling for strategic control of the dams and water supply in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/isis-forces-in-iraq.html

If that's their strategy it's a mighty poor one unless your plan is to just kill people by blowing it up, you can't just turn the water off for very long. It's a high value target that they have to defend and reinforce if they plan to keep it, there's little tactical advantage.
Let's see what happens.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...creating-wave-flood-baghdad-article-1.1897539
 
Last edited:
  • #90
nsaspook said:
...their strategy it's a mighty poor one...

ISIS noted for smart strategy according to director of Institute for the Study of War:

...most importantly, the Islamic State has very simply put together a smarter offensive plan. Its push toward Irbil is believed by many not to be a move to take that city but to force the peshmerga to defend its capital, allowing the Islamic State to harden its grip on places nearby it’s more interesting in holding.

“No one is doing what ISIS is doing,” said Jessica Lewis, a research director at the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War, using an acronym for the Islamic State derived from its previous name, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. “ISIS thins out and strategically targets their adversaries. They are more thoughtful about their offense.”

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/08/07/6028238/why-cant-islamic-state-be-stopped.html#storylink=cpy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #91
Dotini said:
ISIS noted for smart strategy according to director of Institute for the Study of War:

Anything is smart if the other side is just dropping its weapons and running when they see the devil. Their blitzkrieg tactics are efficient and smart for the objective of sweeping villages and poorly commanded troops into submission but they are creating a massive army of unforgiving people who will want revenge for the crimes that have been committed on them. This is stupid strategically if you want to create a something more than just a battleground for slaughter. If a slaughter house is what they want then the strategy is brilliant.
 
Last edited:
  • #92
Dotini said:
No, I provide a source that hundreds of French, Americans and British are directly involved in ISIS, some ISIS fighters were former FSA trained by US, French and British trainers, and I assert that CNN reports some are war college trained.

ISIS draws foreigners from many countries, as have several jihadist organizations over the years, with al Awlaki perhaps the most infamous. But there is no mention whatsoever of ISIS in that Reuters source, which was about training certain Syrian rebels.
 
  • #93
These articles makes it clear that western training and weapons were provided to rebel groups such as the FSA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/w...xpands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/us-usa-syria-rebels-idUSBREA331ZI20140404

These make it clear that ISIS has recruited from the FSA, al-Nusra, etc., including its commanders.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/jihadists-step-up-recruitment-drive-1403739743
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/23/231236/isiss-victories-may-win-it-recruits.html
 
  • #94
Dotini said:
These articles makes it clear that western training and weapons were provided to rebel groups such as the FSA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/w...xpands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/us-usa-syria-rebels-idUSBREA331ZI20140404
Granted, training directly for the FSA, not al-Nusra, not ISIS. The western backed training in Jordan occurred for FSA in light of their statements like http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/124717/syrian-opposition-call-for-no-fly-zone.html, at the beginning of the Syrian rebellion in 2011:
Turkish Weekly said:
“This is not a sectarian issue, but 90 per cent of the [Syrian goverment] army is Sunni and they are trying to make it sectarian by going in and killing Syrian civilians in Sunni areas,” said the SFA source,
The FSA fought the Assad regime without any substantial aid from the west for two years until the like of the training in Jordan began (for some 200) beginning in 2013 per the Reuters article. One could make the argument it was two year period of the west doing nothing, threatening red lines, while the FSA weakened fighting Assad's government that allowed the rise of other groups like ISIS. But this is for another thread.

The article also states the Jordanians made efforts to keep radicals out of the training program:
Reuters said:
Jordanian intelligence services are involved in the program, which aims to build around a dozen units totaling some 10,000 fighters to the exclusion of radical Islamists, Spiegel reported.
"The Jordanian intelligence services want to prevent Salafists (radical Islamists) crossing from their own country into Syria and then returning later to stir up trouble in Jordan itself," one of the organizers told the paper.

Dotini said:
These make it clear that ISIS has recruited from the FSA, al-Nusra, etc., including its commanders.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/jihadists-step-up-recruitment-drive-1403739743
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/23/231236/isiss-victories-may-win-it-recruits.html
The WSJ article from June makes one reference to FSA:
WSJ said:
...Last week, four commanders from the Western-backed Free Syrian Army joined ISIS, Syrian activists said.
The McClatchy reference you provided above states:
McClatchy said:
Since January, [ISIS has] been locked in combat not just with the U.S.-backed moderate Free Syrian Army but also with Nusra and Ahrar al Sham.
with nothing about defections from FSA. Elsewhere, there is also this about the relation between ISIS and FSA:
Arab news said:
Late last week, dozens of FSA fighters were killed in a battle against ISIS in the northwestern province of Idlib. The FSA battalion chief there was beheaded by ISIS and his brother slaughtered, said the Observatory.

Do you still assert that this fact basis warrants your original statement in this thread, that ISIS is a Frankenstein? How should one interpret that monster analogy, other than that it is creature manufactured by the actions of west?

Dotini said:
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. ...
 
  • #95
mheslep said:
Do you still assert that this fact basis warrants your original statement in this thread, that ISIS is a Frankenstein? How should one interpret that monster analogy, other than that it is creature manufactured by the actions of west?

Yes, I reassert that ISIS is a Frankenstein's monster. However, I deny that the west is exclusively responsible, as history is exceedingly complex. I do agree with The Independent that,

"Saudi Arabia has created a Frankenstein's monster over which it is rapidly losing control. The same is true of its allies such as Turkey which has been a vital back-base for Isis and Jabhat al-Nusra by keeping the 510-mile-long Turkish-Syrian border open."

I also make room to blame Qatar for their support of ISIS, and Nouri al-Maliki for excluding Sunni from the Iraqi army and government leadership. Loads of blame to go around to many points of the compass, east and west.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ke-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html
 
  • #96
Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.
 
  • #97
The sad thing is our delay in striking ISIS has allowed this Frankenstein's monster to mutate into a Godzilla sized creature with the same abnormal brain.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iraq-conflict-political-crisis-deepens-as-pm-deploys-militia-1.2732479

Asked if the U.S. airstrikes were making a difference for the Yazidis, Gee said one strike overnight at militants in Sinjar who were firing at the group were "taken out," restoring some calm.

Gee said she was with Kurdish forces about 30 kilometres from Erbill on Saturday, and she was told things were "peaceful" following the Thursday and Friday night airstrikes because heavy weaponry operated by ISIS was destroyed.
...
"Some of the victims, including women and children were buried alive in scattered mass graves in and around Sinjar," Sudani said.
 
  • #98
Vanadium 50 said:
Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IraqWPR.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #99
  • #100
Vanadium 50 said:
Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

That document was thrown in the trash years ago to main stream politicians
 

Similar threads

News US-Iraq Security Pact: Impasse over Sovereignty
Replies
12
Views
3K
News Is the US Military Losing the Battle for Hearts and Minds in Iraq?
2
Replies
67
Views
8K
News Is Reinstating Saddam's Officers a Step Back for Iraqi Democracy?
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • Poll Poll
News Is the Media Neglecting to Report Iraqi Insurgent Casualties?
Replies
32
Views
4K
News Iraqi police force infiltrated by ins s
Replies
9
Views
2K
News Embedded Journalists - AP Reporter Shooting Rehash
2
Replies
62
Views
10K
News The US military & the Iraqi press
Replies
4
Views
2K
News Legitimate targets of resistance?
2
Replies
91
Views
9K
News Was Anyone Surprised by US Missile Hitting Refugee Bus in 2003?
Replies
4
Views
4K
News Iranian University Chancellors Ask Bollinger 10 Questions
Replies
4
Views
2K

Hot Threads

Recent Insights

Back
Top