Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

[Czcibor]

I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".

This quotation is actually from Arnaud Amalric when dealing not with Muslims, but with Cathars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

 

[BobG]

Personally I think that putting as much political pressure on prime minister al-Maliki to step down and allow the proper formation of a unity government is the best way to curb the sectarian violence. That could ultimately draw support away from ISIS. Unfortunately though it might be a case of too little too late.

I'm not impressed by al-Maliki. However, he was elected "properly".

And he'd be replaced by a democratically elected prime minister; elected by a country where the majority of the population is Shiite. The majority may not hate Sunnis, but, in a country that was recently ruled by a Sunni dictator that killed Shiites, there's enough of a combination of hatred, weariness, and just a plain desire for a Shiite led government that sticking up for Sunnis isn't exactly a political winner in Iraqi politics.

Iraq's ethnic problems run deeper than just al-Maliki. They're likely to continue for decades...

... which is a lot longer than ISIS will last. They may be able to invade Iraq successfully, but maintaining the peace will probably be a lot tougher than the invasion was.

 

[nsaspook]

It looks like finally some action is being taken on ISIS positions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/w...ikes-to-aid-trapped-iraqis-officials-say.html
Cruise missiles instead of US aircraft?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-begins-humanitarian-airdrops-iraq/story?id=24884633

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...-s-navy-planes-drop-bombs-isis-forces-n175941

The United States dropped laser-guided bombs on ISIS artillery in Iraq on Friday, the Pentagon said — the beginning of airstrikes threatened a day earlier by President Barack Obama.

The bombs, 500 pounds each, were dropped by two Navy F-18 fighter jets near Erbil, the strategically important city that serves as the Kurdish capital, and where the United States has a consulate. ISIS was using the artillery to shell Kurdish forces defending Erbil, the Pentagon said.

The fighter jets took off from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush, in the Persian Gulf. The mission marked a return to U.S. military engagement in Iraq, three years after Obama removed U.S. forces.

 

[lisab]

Generally I'm against foreign intervention these days, but I can see the need for this. IS, or ISIS, or whatever...these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?

But if we can speed their downfall a bit, I won't lose any sleep over it. Especially if we can do it from high altitude.

IMO.

 

[jim hardy]

I guess Russia lent them a hand too, back in in June..

http://rt.com/news/169144-iraq-russian-jets-arrive/
June 29

The first delivery of Russian Sukhoi fighter jets arrived in Iraq on Saturday, the country’s Defense Ministry said. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is hoping the jets will make a key difference in the fight against ISIS...

...Our Russian friends have also sent their own experts to assist us in preparing the aircraft...

Glad to see we agree on something .

 

[mheslep]

.these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?...

IMO.

Well the Romans managed to crucify people for a thousand years or so

 

[nsaspook]

I guess Russia lent them a hand too, back in in June..

http://rt.com/news/169144-iraq-russian-jets-arrive/
June 29


Glad to see we agree on something .

Yes, we can agree to killing people that make even Al-Qaeda blush.
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/214737-us-launches-second-wave-of-airstrikes

 

[Dotini]

In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

 

[Czcibor]

In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

If you look at it from such perspective, you may also start to wonder why in Iraq, instead of a moderately cruel and effective dictator, is an anarchy with some rituals of democracy.

 

[jim hardy]

In the movie "Charlie Wilson's War"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wilson's_War
one US president decided not to finish the job another had started.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/losing-iraq/

 

[mheslep]

In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.

 

[nsaspook]

Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.

I agree with you, I don't think we anything to do with directly 'training' the ISIS fighters. It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training. I see most of their state backing coming from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey and Qatar who were arming ISIS in Syria long before they captured huge caches of Iraqi weapons but their own criminal activities like extortion, kidnapping, robberies, and smuggling have made them the wealthiest terrorist group on the planet so recruitment is easy for someone willing to pull a trigger.

 

[Dotini]

It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training.

"Of course, no one joins a failing or a fading prospect, so the victory of ISIS, or the success that they've experienced in the past few days, acts as almost an amplifier, as a clarion call to those who want to be part of the struggle,"

-----------------

The last great call to arms for Muslim fighters was in the 1980s, after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. About 20,000 foreign fighters traveled there, most of them from the Gulf states.

This time, while many of the volunteers are coming from the Middle East, thousands of Westerners are showing up, too.

The largest portion is coming from Britain, U.S. officials say. The French government puts the French total at 700 to 800. The latest tally of Americans: about 100.

http://www.npr.org/2014/06/28/326313364/western-fighters-answer-mideast-extremists-clarion-call

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.

 

[mheslep]

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.

Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?

 

[Dotini]

Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?

No, I provide a source that hundreds of French, Americans and British are directly involved in ISIS, some ISIS fighters were former FSA trained by US, French and British trainers, and I assert that CNN reports some are war college trained.

 

[nsaspook]

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.

I'm sure many have had some professional training but I don't see much military strategic planning by the ISIS leadership or commanders. A scorched Earth policy of genocide to non-believers is a simple tactic to capture territory fast but it's usually counterproductive to long term stability but most don't care and as long as the brutal tactics are successful they won't stop unless they are killed.

IMO they are more like a Drug Lords army high on blood lust. We can't easily get the leadership but if we make this 'adventure' less of a cakewalk for the troops in the field that's worth the effort.

 

[Dotini]

I'm sure many have had some professional training but I don't see much military strategic planning by the ISIS leadership or commanders.

You might enjoy this article from the NY Times which shows ISIS battling for strategic control of the dams and water supply in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/isis-forces-in-iraq.html

 

[nsaspook]

You might enjoy this article from the NY Times which shows ISIS battling for strategic control of the dams and water supply in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/isis-forces-in-iraq.html

If that's their strategy it's a mighty poor one unless your plan is to just kill people by blowing it up, you can't just turn the water off for very long. It's a high value target that they have to defend and reinforce if they plan to keep it, there's little tactical advantage.
Let's see what happens.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...creating-wave-flood-baghdad-article-1.1897539

 

[Dotini]

...their strategy it's a mighty poor one...

ISIS noted for smart strategy according to director of Institute for the Study of War:

...most importantly, the Islamic State has very simply put together a smarter offensive plan. Its push toward Irbil is believed by many not to be a move to take that city but to force the peshmerga to defend its capital, allowing the Islamic State to harden its grip on places nearby it’s more interesting in holding.

“No one is doing what ISIS is doing,” said Jessica Lewis, a research director at the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War, using an acronym for the Islamic State derived from its previous name, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. “ISIS thins out and strategically targets their adversaries. They are more thoughtful about their offense.”

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/08/07/6028238/why-cant-islamic-state-be-stopped.html#storylink=cpy [Broken]

 

[nsaspook]

ISIS noted for smart strategy according to director of Institute for the Study of War:

Anything is smart if the other side is just dropping its weapons and running when they see the devil. Their blitzkrieg tactics are efficient and smart for the objective of sweeping villages and poorly commanded troops into submission but they are creating a massive army of unforgiving people who will want revenge for the crimes that have been committed on them. This is stupid strategically if you want to create a something more than just a battleground for slaughter. If a slaughter house is what they want then the strategy is brilliant.

 

[mheslep]

No, I provide a source that hundreds of French, Americans and British are directly involved in ISIS, some ISIS fighters were former FSA trained by US, French and British trainers, and I assert that CNN reports some are war college trained.

ISIS draws foreigners from many countries, as have several jihadist organizations over the years, with al Awlaki perhaps the most infamous. But there is no mention whatsoever of ISIS in that Reuters source, which was about training certain Syrian rebels.

 

[Dotini]

These articles makes it clear that western training and weapons were provided to rebel groups such as the FSA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/w...xpands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/us-usa-syria-rebels-idUSBREA331ZI20140404

These make it clear that ISIS has recruited from the FSA, al-Nusra, etc., including its commanders.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/jihadists-step-up-recruitment-drive-1403739743
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/23/231236/isiss-victories-may-win-it-recruits.html

 

[mheslep]

These articles makes it clear that western training and weapons were provided to rebel groups such as the FSA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/w...xpands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/us-usa-syria-rebels-idUSBREA331ZI20140404

Granted, training directly for the FSA, not al-Nusra, not ISIS. The western backed training in Jordan occurred for FSA in light of their statements like http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/124717/syrian-opposition-call-for-no-fly-zone.html, at the beginning of the Syrian rebellion in 2011:

“This is not a sectarian issue, but 90 per cent of the [Syrian goverment] army is Sunni and they are trying to make it sectarian by going in and killing Syrian civilians in Sunni areas,” said the SFA source,

The FSA fought the Assad regime without any substantial aid from the west for two years until the like of the training in Jordan began (for some 200) beginning in 2013 per the Reuters article. One could make the argument it was two year period of the west doing nothing, threatening red lines, while the FSA weakened fighting Assad's government that allowed the rise of other groups like ISIS. But this is for another thread.

The article also states the Jordanians made efforts to keep radicals out of the training program:

Jordanian intelligence services are involved in the program, which aims to build around a dozen units totaling some 10,000 fighters to the exclusion of radical Islamists, Spiegel reported.
"The Jordanian intelligence services want to prevent Salafists (radical Islamists) crossing from their own country into Syria and then returning later to stir up trouble in Jordan itself," one of the organizers told the paper.

These make it clear that ISIS has recruited from the FSA, al-Nusra, etc., including its commanders.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/jihadists-step-up-recruitment-drive-1403739743
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/23/231236/isiss-victories-may-win-it-recruits.html

The WSJ article from June makes one reference to FSA:

...Last week, four commanders from the Western-backed Free Syrian Army joined ISIS, Syrian activists said.

The McClatchy reference you provided above states:

Since January, [ISIS has] been locked in combat not just with the U.S.-backed moderate Free Syrian Army but also with Nusra and Ahrar al Sham.

with nothing about defections from FSA. Elsewhere, there is also this about the relation between ISIS and FSA:

Late last week, dozens of FSA fighters were killed in a battle against ISIS in the northwestern province of Idlib. The FSA battalion chief there was beheaded by ISIS and his brother slaughtered, said the Observatory.

Do you still assert that this fact basis warrants your original statement in this thread, that ISIS is a Frankenstein? How should one interpret that monster analogy, other than that it is creature manufactured by the actions of west?

In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. ...

 

[Dotini]

Do you still assert that this fact basis warrants your original statement in this thread, that ISIS is a Frankenstein? How should one interpret that monster analogy, other than that it is creature manufactured by the actions of west?

Yes, I reassert that ISIS is a Frankenstein's monster. However, I deny that the west is exclusively responsible, as history is exceedingly complex. I do agree with The Independent that,

"Saudi Arabia has created a Frankenstein's monster over which it is rapidly losing control. The same is true of its allies such as Turkey which has been a vital back-base for Isis and Jabhat al-Nusra by keeping the 510-mile-long Turkish-Syrian border open."

I also make room to blame Qatar for their support of ISIS, and Nouri al-Maliki for excluding Sunni from the Iraqi army and government leadership. Loads of blame to go around to many points of the compass, east and west.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ke-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

 

[nsaspook]

The sad thing is our delay in striking ISIS has allowed this Frankenstein's monster to mutate into a Godzilla sized creature with the same abnormal brain.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iraq-conflict-political-crisis-deepens-as-pm-deploys-militia-1.2732479

Asked if the U.S. airstrikes were making a difference for the Yazidis, Gee said one strike overnight at militants in Sinjar who were firing at the group were "taken out," restoring some calm.

Gee said she was with Kurdish forces about 30 kilometres from Erbill on Saturday, and she was told things were "peaceful" following the Thursday and Friday night airstrikes because heavy weaponry operated by ISIS was destroyed.
...
"Some of the victims, including women and children were buried alive in scattered mass graves in and around Sinjar," Sudani said.

 

[nsaspook]

Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IraqWPR.pdf [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

 

[Dotini]

Baghdadi, the ISIS leader, ironically pursues an Islamic crusade by surrounding himself with formerly secular Baathists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/w...&region=lede-package&WT.nav=lede-package&_r=0
Mr. Baghdadi has surrounded himself by a tight clique of former Baath Party military and intelligence officers from the Hussein regime who know how to fight.

 

[gfd43tg]

Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

That document was thrown in the trash years ago to main stream politicians

 

[OmCheeto]

... Congress is in session.

House: 113th Congress, 2nd Session · The House is not in session

Senate: Days in session are in red
Yesterday, and today, are not in red.

But looking at their calendars, all I can think is; "What a bunch of slackers..."

ps. I support the president in his decision to bomb these, these, ugh... I have no word to describe how much I disdain this "ISIS" group.

 

[russ_watters]

Does anyone understand the Constitutional argument for airstrikes without Congressional authorization? The President has said that the Iraq war is over, so it can't be that. Congress is in session.

The President is Commander in Chief according to the Constitution and requires no additional authority.

Presidents sometimes ask for permission in order not to run afoul of the War Powers Act, which:

1. Includes a 60 day grace period.
2. Is likely unconstitutional.

 

[russ_watters]

In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

At this point, are we correct to assume that "at least hundreds" is something you made up/concluded and have no direct source for?

While I suspect it is likely that some ISIS fighters were trained by the US, I also would be surprised if it is more than dozens.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

This video shows some emotional faces of Yazidis while being rescued. Sure strikes a chord in me.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/world/meast/iraq-rescue-mission/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Dotini]

At this point, are we correct to assume that "at least hundreds" is something you made up/concluded and have no direct source for?

While I suspect it is likely that some ISIS fighters were trained by the US, I also would be surprised if it is more than dozens.

I assumed the following as documentable facts as the basis of my rough estimate of hundreds.

- Training of rebels by US, British and French began in Jordan in 2011, turning out maybe 90/month. So that's a base of at least 2000 in Jordan alone, not to mention Turkey, or western training received at some other time or place.

- It did not seem too great stretch that 10% would have been subsumed into ISIS as most of the rebel factions were gathered by ISIS.

So you may be right, it could be fewer. Maybe it's only 10, but there would appear to be no definitive current count available (to me). I rest my statement on what I think is reasonable and conservative. If I have exceeded the freedom of expression allowed by the Current Events Guidelines, then I am deeply apologetic and beg your forgiveness, for such was definitely not my intent.