News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

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The Iraqi government is facing imminent collapse under insurgent pressure, with ISIS reportedly taking control of Mosul. The U.S. has refused military aid to Iraq, primarily to avoid appearing to support Prime Minister al-Maliki, whose Shiite leadership could be seen as backing Iran. Concerns are rising that if insurgents gain control of Baghdad, it could lead to increased conflict with Iran. The Iraqi army, despite being well-trained and outnumbering ISIS, has shown reluctance to engage, leaving military equipment behind in their retreat. The situation is evolving into a civil war, raising fears of broader regional instability and the potential resurgence of terrorism globally.
  • #61
OmCheeto said:
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry.



Diyala is an Iraqi province which shares borders with Baghdad and Iran.
Aleppo is the largest city in Syria.
I mention this, as I'm somewhat bad with names.

hmmm... What else do people think?

(ref)

Good. Let them kill each other.

Who was it that said; "... let God sort them out."?*

As former military, and current softhearted guy, who takes in malnourished stray cats and downtrodden pigeons, I find it somewhat cowardly, that people involve civilians in their conflicts.

-----------------------------
*Arnaud Amalric. In France no less. Another sectarian war. How appropriate.
ok2d


Yes, I think it's wise to keep our military out of this. Humanitarian aid, sure, but choosing sides would be nuts.
 
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  • #62
ISIL has apparently removed the last two words from their name on all documentation and is now calling itself the Islamic State. I found their latest document quite impenetrable (it may be the translation but probably is just that it's chock full of religious exaltations) but the last paragraph on page 4 and first of page 5 are quite revealing. I can't copy and paste for some reason but they claim the territory from Aleppo in north west Syria to Diyala in Iraq. Shaira law has purportedly been introduced and courts set up to settle disputes.

Interestingly I've seen interviews with citizens living in ISIL controlled areas who have pointed out that little for them on the ground has changed. Some have said things are better with government roadblocks between areas finally dismantled. It's a messy and dynamic situation though so I doubt a full picture will be available for a while/
 
  • #63
Ryan_m_b said:
... I found their latest document quite impenetrable ...

I'm glad I'm not alone.

My interpretation of, or a quote from, each page:

Page 1: Cover sheet. Title: “This is the promise of god”
Page 2: God told us to do this
Page 3: We were naked and ate beetles before God showed up
Page 4: God likes Sunnis and hates Shia
Page 5: God said we should do this
Page 6: “…you will own the earth, and the east and west will submit to you”.
Page 7: You will obey your master
Page 8: “We will defend it – if Allah wills – as long as it exists and as long as one of us remains,
and [if it vanishes] we will bring it back – if Allah wills – upon the methodology of prophethood.”
Page 9: “And if anyone wants to break the ranks, split his head with bullets and empty its insides, whoever he may be.”
Page 10: Happy Ramadan

My response:

Page 1-5: Ok
Page 6: Tears for Fears is god; “Everybody wants to rule the world”
Page 7: Very Vaderesque
Page 8: if*
Page 9: Don’t remember bullets in the Quran. Might be my memory…..
Page 10: Same to you!

-------------------------------
* My sincerest thanks to micromass, for the quiz yesterday.
 
  • #64
Eric Hoffer's "True Believer" was recently printed in Arabic.

http://xrdarabia.org/2010/04/11/translating-eric-hoffer/
Eric Hoffer was a bit of an oddity. Self-educated, he preferred physical labor over a desk-bound job. He was also non-ideological, instead looking objectively at the social conditions that led masses to adopt, lock-stock-and-barrel, ideological reasoning that promised to resolve their problems, but in the end only added to them. And at the cost of millions of lives. Those killed as a result were not necessarily followers, but instead simply people who were seen at the time to be impediments to the ‘greater good’.

I wonder if Mark Twain's "War Prayer" could follow ?
http://warprayer.org/

good delivery about 6 minutes into this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYIRbmxHpc
 
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  • #65
jim hardy said:
Eric Hoffer's "True Believer" was recently printed in Arabic.

http://xrdarabia.org/2010/04/11/translating-eric-hoffer/
Quite nice to see a positive article like that.

concluding paragraph from jim's link said:
Nevertheless, having Hoffer’s True Believers available in Arabic is an enormous step forward. It offers important ideas that should become part of the thinking of not only governments, but individuals. Far from ivory tower academics, it is a voice from the ground. It is a voice that should become part of the conversations and dialogues that compose Arab reforms.

Nice to see some people in the Middle East contemplating the possibility that not all westerners are kuffār. (infidels) I suppose some of us are, but not all.

I wonder if Mark Twain's "War Prayer" could follow ?
http://warprayer.org/

good delivery about 6 minutes into this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYIRbmxHpc

I think it follows. I've never heard of it before.

Interesting personal note about it on wiki:
wiki on the war prayer said:
The piece was left unpublished by Mark Twain at his death in April 1910, largely due to pressure from his family, who feared that the story would be considered sacrilegious. Twain's publisher and other friends also discouraged him from publishing it. According to one account, his illustrator Dan Beard asked him if he would publish it anyway, and Twain replied, "No, I have told the whole truth in that, and only dead men can tell the truth in this world. It can be published after I am dead." Mindful of public reaction, he considered that he had a family to support and did not want to be seen as a lunatic or fanatic.

I can totally relate. I really wanted to speak my mind where I used to work, but I had mortgage payments to make. On a related note, a story which I'm sure I've told at least 10 times:

I was hot and heavy commenting on Al Jazeera's Facebook page several years ago, regarding something about to take place in Palestine, during which, I started getting friend requests from people in the area. Some of them never posted. I decided later, that I was speaking for them. Americans have the luxury of speaking their mind with relative impunity on the internet. Unfortunately, speaking your mind in many of those countries won't result in your loss of ability to make a house payment, it results in the loss of your head.
 
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  • #66
The average resident of that unfortunate area does not think of himself or herself as an “Iraqi”. If asked for their allegiance, they will identify themselves by their religious affiliation. If you press further, they will give a tribal or family grouping. Press again and they will give the town of their birth.

They view the national boundaries of Iraq as lines drawn on the map by foreigners (British and French) and enforced militarily by foreigners without the consent of the local people, and therefore unworthy of respect. As one Baghdadi said to me, “I wipe the soles of my shoes on such lines!” This is a gross insult in the Arab culture.

You should not expect “Iraqis” to act for “love of country”. Their loyalties lie elsewhere.
 
  • #67
TheAustrian said:
Maybe the best solution would be to split Iraq in three. One piece for Kurds, one piece for Sunnis, and one piece for the Shi'ite people. Of course I think it should happen at an international negotiation table with the involvement of: Kurds, Sunni Iraqis, Shi'ite Iraqis, Iran, Syria, USA, Russia and China.

It worked in India, but it was very, very bloody.

Certainly, the present boundaries of the state bear no relation to the wishes of the local inhabitants, being the result of power grabs by Britain and France after WWI.
 
  • #68
OmCheeto said:
Who was it that said; "... let God sort them out."?*

I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".
 
  • #69
klimatos said:
It worked in India, but it was very, very bloody.
Well a border was drawn, two independent states recognized. I don't know whether "worked" applies yet.
 
  • #70
klimatos said:
I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".

OFF TOPIC
Richard never captured Jerusalem. He came to within sight of the city but never actually set foot in it.

I think this incident might have happened in Acre or Jaffa though.
 
  • #71
klimatos said:
I believe it was Richard the Lionhearted on the occasion of the capture of Jerusalem. Both Christians and Moslems had taken refuge in a church. Since they both dressed alike, the Crusaders could not tell them apart.

Richard's solution was, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!"

A contemporary commentator reported that the blood "ran ankle deep in the nave of the church".

This quotation is actually from Arnaud Amalric when dealing not with Muslims, but with Cathars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric
 
  • #72
Ryan_m_b said:
Personally I think that putting as much political pressure on prime minister al-Maliki to step down and allow the proper formation of a unity government is the best way to curb the sectarian violence. That could ultimately draw support away from ISIS. Unfortunately though it might be a case of too little too late.
I'm not impressed by al-Maliki. However, he was elected "properly".

And he'd be replaced by a democratically elected prime minister; elected by a country where the majority of the population is Shiite. The majority may not hate Sunnis, but, in a country that was recently ruled by a Sunni dictator that killed Shiites, there's enough of a combination of hatred, weariness, and just a plain desire for a Shiite led government that sticking up for Sunnis isn't exactly a political winner in Iraqi politics.

Iraq's ethnic problems run deeper than just al-Maliki. They're likely to continue for decades...

... which is a lot longer than ISIS will last. They may be able to invade Iraq successfully, but maintaining the peace will probably be a lot tougher than the invasion was.
 
  • #74
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...-s-navy-planes-drop-bombs-isis-forces-n175941
The United States dropped laser-guided bombs on ISIS artillery in Iraq on Friday, the Pentagon said — the beginning of airstrikes threatened a day earlier by President Barack Obama.

The bombs, 500 pounds each, were dropped by two Navy F-18 fighter jets near Erbil, the strategically important city that serves as the Kurdish capital, and where the United States has a consulate. ISIS was using the artillery to shell Kurdish forces defending Erbil, the Pentagon said.

The fighter jets took off from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush, in the Persian Gulf. The mission marked a return to U.S. military engagement in Iraq, three years after Obama removed U.S. forces.
 
  • #75
Generally I'm against foreign intervention these days, but I can see the need for this. IS, or ISIS, or whatever...these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?

But if we can speed their downfall a bit, I won't lose any sleep over it. Especially if we can do it from high altitude.

IMO.
 
  • #76
I guess Russia lent them a hand too, back in in June..

http://rt.com/news/169144-iraq-russian-jets-arrive/
June 29
The first delivery of Russian Sukhoi fighter jets arrived in Iraq on Saturday, the country’s Defense Ministry said. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is hoping the jets will make a key difference in the fight against ISIS...

...Our Russian friends have also sent their own experts to assist us in preparing the aircraft...

Glad to see we agree on something .
 
  • #77
lisab said:
.these guys are just bad news. If we do nothing, they will eventually burn themselves out due to their brutality. What population is going to tolerate beheadings and forced conversions for very long?...

IMO.

Well the Romans managed to crucify people for a thousand years or so
 
  • #79
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310
 
  • #80
Dotini said:
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

If you look at it from such perspective, you may also start to wonder why in Iraq, instead of a moderately cruel and effective dictator, is an anarchy with some rituals of democracy.
 
  • #82
Dotini said:
In ISIS we have a bit of a Frankenstein's monster for which we need to acknowledge a share of our own culpability - as well as the responsibility to undo the damage we have done, in my opinion.

As part of our efforts to unseat Assad, at least hundreds of what later became ISIS fighters were trained in Jordanian camps by US, British and French. Our allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab League states are said to have provided financing and weapons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/10/us-syria-crisis-rebels-usa-idUSBRE9290FI20130310

Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.
 
  • #83
mheslep said:
Do you have another source? There is no mention of ISIS, no suggestion of anything that "later became" in that source.

I agree with you, I don't think we anything to do with directly 'training' the ISIS fighters. It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training. I see most of their state backing coming from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey and Qatar who were arming ISIS in Syria long before they captured huge caches of Iraqi weapons but their own criminal activities like extortion, kidnapping, robberies, and smuggling have made them the wealthiest terrorist group on the planet so recruitment is easy for someone willing to pull a trigger.
 
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  • #84
nsaspook said:
It very possible some Free Syrian Army forces in Jordan became members of the ISIS after their training.

"Of course, no one joins a failing or a fading prospect, so the victory of ISIS, or the success that they've experienced in the past few days, acts as almost an amplifier, as a clarion call to those who want to be part of the struggle,"

-----------------

The last great call to arms for Muslim fighters was in the 1980s, after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. About 20,000 foreign fighters traveled there, most of them from the Gulf states.

This time, while many of the volunteers are coming from the Middle East, thousands of Westerners are showing up, too.

The largest portion is coming from Britain, U.S. officials say. The French government puts the French total at 700 to 800. The latest tally of Americans: about 100.

http://www.npr.org/2014/06/28/326313364/western-fighters-answer-mideast-extremists-clarion-call

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.
 
  • #85
Dotini said:
My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.
Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?
 
  • #86
mheslep said:
Instead of a retraction or a source, you double up on your assertion that ISIS is trained by the like the U.S. military?

No, I provide a source that hundreds of French, Americans and British are directly involved in ISIS, some ISIS fighters were former FSA trained by US, French and British trainers, and I assert that CNN reports some are war college trained.
 
  • #87
Dotini said:

My comment: CNN analysts are saying its evident some of these ISIS fighters have had training at a war college. They don't specifically mention Sandhurst or West Point, but I suppose there are other war colleges.


I'm sure many have had some professional training but I don't see much military strategic planning by the ISIS leadership or commanders. A scorched Earth policy of genocide to non-believers is a simple tactic to capture territory fast but it's usually counterproductive to long term stability but most don't care and as long as the brutal tactics are successful they won't stop unless they are killed.

IMO they are more like a Drug Lords army high on blood lust. We can't easily get the leadership but if we make this 'adventure' less of a cakewalk for the troops in the field that's worth the effort.
 
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  • #88
  • #89
Dotini said:
You might enjoy this article from the NY Times which shows ISIS battling for strategic control of the dams and water supply in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/isis-forces-in-iraq.html

If that's their strategy it's a mighty poor one unless your plan is to just kill people by blowing it up, you can't just turn the water off for very long. It's a high value target that they have to defend and reinforce if they plan to keep it, there's little tactical advantage.
Let's see what happens.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...creating-wave-flood-baghdad-article-1.1897539
 
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  • #90
nsaspook said:
...their strategy it's a mighty poor one...

ISIS noted for smart strategy according to director of Institute for the Study of War:

...most importantly, the Islamic State has very simply put together a smarter offensive plan. Its push toward Irbil is believed by many not to be a move to take that city but to force the peshmerga to defend its capital, allowing the Islamic State to harden its grip on places nearby it’s more interesting in holding.

“No one is doing what ISIS is doing,” said Jessica Lewis, a research director at the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War, using an acronym for the Islamic State derived from its previous name, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. “ISIS thins out and strategically targets their adversaries. They are more thoughtful about their offense.”

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/08/07/6028238/why-cant-islamic-state-be-stopped.html#storylink=cpy
 
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