Is a 100% Efficient Machine Considered a Perpetual Motion Machine?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of perpetual motion machines (PMMs) and whether a hypothetical machine that is 100% efficient could be classified as a PMM. Participants explore the definitions and implications of efficiency in relation to the laws of thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if a machine that is 100% efficient could be considered a PMM, despite acknowledging that PMMs do not exist and that the laws of thermodynamics prohibit the creation of energy.
  • Another participant asserts that a PMM, which is defined as producing more work than it consumes, cannot be equated to a machine that merely operates at 100% efficiency without producing excess energy.
  • A different participant emphasizes that a PMM must perform work, implying that a hypothetical machine that does not produce work cannot be classified as a PMM.
  • One participant suggests that the classification may not matter since PMMs are theoretical constructs that do not exist in reality.
  • Another participant references a wiki definition of PMMs, indicating that there are various types defined, which may contribute to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the classification of a 100% efficient machine as a PMM. There is no consensus on whether such a machine can be called a PMM, as definitions and interpretations vary among participants.

Contextual Notes

The discussion relies on theoretical constructs and definitions that are not universally agreed upon, highlighting the complexity of classifying machines based on efficiency and work output.

YashaTheBest
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Can perpetual motion machine not produce extra energy just be 100% efficient and still be considered a perpetual motion machine?

I understand the laws of thermodynamics states that a machine cannot make more energy than it uses. But theoretically if you remove all the losses and have a 100% efficient machine could I call it a PMM or it has to produce more energy to be called a PMM.

This question is purely whether or not can I call it a PMM.
 
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A PMM (which does not exist) does work. Your hypothetical machine (which ALSO does not exist --- there's no such thing as zero load) does no work so it is not a PMM
 
phinds said:
A PMM (which does not exist) does work. Your hypothetical machine (which ALSO does not exist --- there's no such thing as zero load) does no work so it is not a PMM

This doesn't answers my question.

I know that It doesn't exist and I'm not claiming anything. I do not need people saying "it is impossible" or "does not exist" or "there is no such things". I simply want to know whether or not can I call 100% efficient machine a PMM.
 
Since there isn't any such thing, I'm not at all clear that it MATTERS what you call it.

As I specifically said in my post, a PMM does work and yours doesn't so yours isn't a PMM. Was that not clear?
 
I think that, by definition, a PMM has to output more work than is input. So a machine that just breaks even is not a PMM.
 

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