Is Alice's Arithmetic Wrong?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Euphoriet
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around the mathematical concept of 0/0, which is classified as "indeterminate." Participants clarify that "indeterminate" and "undefined" are not synonymous; while 0/0 lacks a specific value due to the nature of division, it is termed indeterminate because it can yield multiple outcomes depending on the context, such as limits in calculus. The conversation humorously diverges into tangents, with participants joking about the implications of dividing by zero and referencing pop culture, particularly Lewis Carroll and Douglas Adams. Ultimately, the thread highlights the confusion surrounding the definitions and implications of indeterminate forms in mathematics, while also showcasing a light-hearted banter among forum members.
Euphoriet
Messages
105
Reaction score
0
Sorry I can't seem to find a 'constant" answer anywhere..
 
Physics news on Phys.org
0/0 is indeterminate. It has no specific value.

- Warren
 
Undefined, afaik.
 
Indeterminate. It doesn't mean the same thing as "undefined."

Think about it this way:

If you have real numbers a and b\neq 0 then we say

\frac{a}{b} = c

if

a = bc

Now, say a=b=0 so we are looking at 0/0. But 0 = 0c is true for every real c, so we can't give it a specific value. We thus call it "indeterminate."
 
Undefined. It doesn't mean the same thing as "indeterminate". :-p

When a value z is not in the domain of a function f, we say that f is undefined at z, or more simply, f(z) is undefined.

This is exactly what's going on here: (0, 0) is not in the domain of the binary function /.


The only mathematical usage of the term "indeteriminate" that I can recall is that of an indeterminate form. The particular relevant example is when you have a limit of a ratio, and you naively apply the limit theorems to get the fraction 0/0, this is said to be an indeterminate form. This is not because you're trying to evaluate 0 divided by zero, but because your manipulations have not provided you with any useful information about the limit.
 
Last edited:
chroot said:
0/0 is indeterminate.

mattmns said:
Undefined, afaik.

Data said:
Indeterminate. It doesn't mean the same thing as "undefined."

Hurkyl said:
Undefined. It doesn't mean the same thing as "indeterminate".

Well, I'm glad everyone agrees. :rolleyes: :smile:
 
Moonbear said:
Well, I'm glad everyone agrees. :rolleyes: :smile:
Do I detect the initial stages of a hijacking?
 
Well, I'm glad everyone agrees.

Thou mocketh us?
 
You're right... I should say that it is both undefined and indeterminate, with the qualification that the term indeterminate refers to some subclass of things that are undefined (although I haven't thought about precisely how I would want to define this subclass, and in this case I should say that it is undefined and more precisely indeterminate). Obviously using indeterminate in that way does not put it in any sort of direct correlation with the notion of an indeterminate form. :wink:

Note that I have carefully constructed this such that nothing in my last post is quite untrue. :-p

I like being able to define things~
 
Last edited:
  • #10
Hurkyl said:
Thou mocketh us?

Moi? o:)

All I know is that winding up with 0/0 either meant I needed to go back and find the mistake in my math homework, or that I've included the wrong cells in Excel in my formula for something. :biggrin:
 
  • #11
Hurkyl said:
Thou mocketh us?


*puts his hand on Moonbear's shoulder*

"Slowly head towards the exit"

easy.. easy.. RUN! RUN BIOLOGY GURU RUN! :smile:
 
  • #12
cronxeh said:
*puts his hand on Moonbear's shoulder*

"Slowly head towards the exit"

easy.. easy.. RUN! RUN BIOLOGY GURU RUN! :smile:

Phew! Narrow escape! Thanks. :rolleyes: Wait, how did I wind up back in this thread?! :eek: *ducks and runs* What did I do with that kevlar apron?
 
  • #13
Hurkyl said:
Thou mocketh us?

Of course. What else would she do?
 
  • #14
franznietzsche said:
Of course. What else would she do?

:rolleyes: *sprays around more pheromones*

How about we call it indeterminately undefined? (How's that for diplomacy?) :smile:
 
  • #15
*looks over to the left*

I think you've angered the angry Quantum Physics mob!
 
  • #16
Moonbear said:
:rolleyes: *sprays around more pheromones*

How about we call it indeterminately undefined? (How's that for diplomacy?) :smile:



Are you sure that wasn't the rhino spray?
 
  • #17
franznietzsche said:
Are you sure that wasn't the rhino spray?

:bugeye: Oops, I think that was the experimental tibbet spray.
 
  • #18
Moonbear said:
:bugeye: Oops, I think that was the experimental tibbet spray.

Is his head supposed to do that?? :bugeye:
 
  • #19
This is quite cool, I'm going to have to remember this.
Moonbear said:
How about we call it indeterminately undefined?
So... In other words an imprecise imprecision?
 
  • #20
cronxeh said:
*looks over to the left*

I think you've angered the angry Quantum Physics mob!

Meh, I'm not worried about the Quantum Physics mob, I've got the Genco families backing me. :-p

Well, we have established that Euphoriet is right, he can't get a constant answer anywhere. :rolleyes: (BTW, Euphoriet, if you're looking for a correct answer, ignore me over here...this is what you get for asking a math question in GD).
 
  • #21
Moonbear said:
Meh, I'm not worried about the Quantum Physics mob, I've got the Genco families backing me. :-p

Well, we have established that Euphoriet is right, he can't get a constant answer anywhere. :rolleyes: (BTW, Euphoriet, if you're looking for a correct answer, ignore me over here...this is what you get for asking a math question in GD).


Yeah it really was not the brightest thing to do asking that here.
 
  • #22
franznietzsche said:
Is his head supposed to do that?? :bugeye:

Well, um, it wasn't supposed to do quite that. :rolleyes: As I said, it's an experimental compound. I think I need to work on it a bit more.
 
  • #23
Fools, all of you.

0/0 = 42

Point, game, match...SpaceTiger.
 
  • #24
SpaceTiger said:
Fools, all of you.

0/0 = 42

Point, game, match...SpaceTiger.


*sigh*

Really, its almost clichéd by this point.
 
  • #25
franznietzsche said:
*sigh*

Really, its almost clichéd by this point.


*Mental note: stick to science sections*
 
  • #26
SpaceTiger said:
*Mental note: stick to science sections*

:smile: Everyone's welcome in GD. Especially cute guys who live near my favorite chocolate shop. :biggrin: Franz, be nice to SpaceTiger, I'm working on a chocolate connection for the Genco families.
 
  • #27
Moonbear said:
:smile: Everyone's welcome in GD. Especially cute guys who live near my favorite chocolate shop. :biggrin: Franz, be nice to SpaceTiger, I'm working on a chocolate connection for the Genco families.


Are you thinkink you can be givink my family orders? Nyet!
 
  • #28
Hurkyl said:
Thou mocketh us?
Yeth.

franznietzsche said:
Is his head supposed to do that?? :bugeye:
No... not his head...

Moonbear said:
:smile: Everyone's welcome in GD. Especially cute guys who live near my favorite chocolate shop. :biggrin: Franz, be nice to SpaceTiger, I'm working on a chocolate connection for the Genco families.
Well... okay. But it better be good chocolate.
 
  • #29
Danger said:
Well... okay. But it better be good chocolate.

Oh, it is! :approve:
 
  • #30
Moonbear said:
Oh, it is! :approve:
Alright then... he's in.
 
  • #31
Danger said:
Alright then... he's in.


ONly if i have something to say about it.

He can stay, but the clichés have to be used on a limited basis. And i say this as a huge fan of the Hitchhiker's Series.
 
  • #32
franznietzsche said:
He can stay, but the clichés have to be used on a limited basis. And i say this as a huge fan of the Hitchhiker's Series.

Ugh, I'm glad not everyone is this rude.

Moonbear, there is chocolate, but where are those biology lessons?!
 
  • #33
SpaceTiger said:
Moonbear, there is chocolate, but where are those biology lessons?!
Since Moonbear's not hear, I'll take the chocolate. mmmf, *chomp*, snorf I know Moonbear won't mind. :rolleyes:

Good chocolate SpaceTiger. :approve:
 
  • #34
Evo said:
Since Moonbear's not hear, I'll take the chocolate. mmmf, *chomp*, snorf I know Moonbear won't mind. :rolleyes:

Good chocolate SpaceTiger. :approve:

Hey! I was saving that for biology lessons!

Bah, now I'll have to settle for learning philosophy or something. :frown:
 
  • #35
SpaceTiger said:
Hey! I was saving that for biology lessons!

Bah, now I'll have to settle for learning philosophy or something. :frown:
Hey, biology was one of my strongest subjects. :-p Of course Moonbear is a *bit* more knowledgeable in that field. :rolleyes:

Ok, I didnt eat them all. (puts the leftover chocolate back) :frown:

No one brings me chocolate. :cry:
 
  • #36
Evo said:
No one brings me chocolate. :cry:

Alright, what can you teach me? :-p
 
  • #37
SpaceTiger said:
Alright, what can you teach me? :-p
Optical Networking. I know, not as much fun as biology.

Hey, I am a decent portrait artist. I could draw your picture in return for chocolate. :biggrin:
 
  • #38
Evo said:
Optical Networking. I know, not as much fun as biology.

Hey, I am a decent portrait artist. I could draw your picture in return for chocolate. :biggrin:

Both of those things would be acceptable. I don't even know what optical networking is, so I suppose there's a lot to learn. :biggrin:
 
  • #39
SpaceTiger said:
Both of those things would be acceptable. I don't even know what optical networking is, so I suppose there's a lot to learn. :biggrin:
Alrighty Then! :approve:

Bring lots of chocolate...DARK chocolate. :biggrin:

I must go to sleep now. :zzz:
 
  • #40
Evo said:
mmmf, *chomp*, snorf
Now you're <snorfing> as well as <snorting>? Is that a typo, or are you developing an accent?

SpaceTiger said:
Hey! I was saving that for biology lessons!

Bah, now I'll have to settle for learning philosophy or something. :frown:
Not to worry. Moonie always asks for a bribe just in case you're unfamiliar with her reputation, but it certainly isn't necessary.

Evo said:
Of course Moonbear is a *bit* more knowledgeable in that field. :rolleyes:
What's the superlative form of understatement?

Evo said:
No one brings me chocolate. :cry:
Now, now, darling... you know I'd bring you all the chocolate you wanted, but I don't want to give you any ideas. It's poisonous to dogs, you know.
 
  • #41
Evo said:
Hey, biology was one of my strongest subjects. :-p Of course Moonbear is a *bit* more knowledgeable in that field. :rolleyes:

Ok, I didnt eat them all. (puts the leftover chocolate back) :frown:

No one brings me chocolate. :cry:

Hey, who ate my chocolate!
 
  • #42
Hmm I saw the large number of posts and I thought this turned into some deep philosophical discussion about what 0/0 really is. Then I remembered it was GD :smile:

Sorry Euphoriet, guess you will not find a consistant answer here either. I personally think, who cares? Call it whatever you want :smile:
 
  • #43
mattmns said:
Hmm I saw the large number of posts and I thought this turned into some deep philosophical discussion about what 0/0 really is. Then I remembered it was GD :smile:

Sorry Euphoriet, guess you will not find a consistant answer here either. I personally think, who cares? Call it whatever you want :smile:
Well, it's consistant that the thread went off topic. :biggrin:
 
  • #44
What the hell happen to my thread? I left for a while..and come back to this.. hahah I see it's three pages long so I expected a long debate of three pages and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.
 
  • #45
Euphoriet said:
and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.
And bloody lucky to get that many despite our best efforts. :biggrin:
 
  • #46
Euphoriet said:
What the hell happen to my thread? I left for a while..and come back to this.. hahah I see it's three pages long so I expected a long debate of three pages and come to find a three post response to the actual topic hahaha.

Oh, sorry. I'm pretty sure I understand well enough now to help add a bit more to the debate on the original topic.

It's indeterminate.

Wait, no, it's undefined.

Um, no, it was right the first time, it's indeterminate.

No, no, no, what was I thinking, it's undefined.

Indeterminate isn't the same as undefined.

Undefined isn't the same as indeterminate.

Saying indeterminate isn't the same as undefined isn't the same as saying undefined isn't the same as indeterminate.

Or, um, it might be.

:rolleyes: Does that help? :biggrin:
 
  • #47
Now wait, according to Space Tiger, 0/0=42 --> 0 = 0 x 42.

Looks okay to me.

oh yes, Dr. Math says
Division by zero is an operation for which you cannot find an answer, so it is disallowed.

:biggrin:

How about illegal? immoral? despicable? contemptible?
 
Last edited:
  • #48
Ivan Seeking said:
How about illegal? immoral? despicable? contemptible?

That's it! Dividing 0 by 0 is immoral. :smile:
 
  • #49
I knew dividing by zero was a sin, I bet it even says it in the bible.
 
  • #50
I think dividing by 0 causes cancer in HP calculators..
 

Similar threads

Name or Label for the outermost point of a rotating object
Replies
3
Views
2K
I Black hole and coordinate time from the perspective of Alice outside
Replies
26
Views
2K
I Bob and Alice with a Bell pair
Replies
3
Views
414
B Why Do Bob and Alice Disagree on Astronomical Measurements?
Replies
25
Views
1K
Why don't we see other people wearing the same clothes more often?
Replies
10
Views
1K
B Confused about ciphers in the book 'Arithmetic for the Practical Man'
Replies
13
Views
2K
I Would the state collapse when quantum entanglement is being observed?
Replies
5
Views
2K
Where Can I Find The Ballad of Maxwell's Equations Sung to Take On Me?
Replies
3
Views
1K
Is Google's Chatbot BARD Failing in Public Testing?
Replies
3
Views
1K
B What theorems are available when using modulo arithmetic?
Replies
11
Views
1K

Hot Threads

Recent Insights

Back
Top