Is an induced emf always produced by a change in flux?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which an induced electromotive force (emf) is produced, particularly in relation to Faraday's law of induction and the phenomenon of motional emf. Participants explore the implications of changing magnetic flux and the Lorentz force, examining both theoretical and practical aspects of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that Faraday's law indicates a change in magnetic flux induces an emf, but question the presence of flux change in cases of motional emf, such as a straight conductor moving in a magnetic field.
  • There is a suggestion that the Lorentz force provides an alternative interpretation of Faraday's law, with some participants indicating that this may be the only interpretation.
  • One participant proposes that motional emf could be understood through a change in flux linkage by considering the moving conductor as part of a closed loop, although they acknowledge difficulties in certain cases like the Faraday disc.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of the local Maxwell equations and discusses the complexities involved in deriving the integral form of Faraday's law, particularly when considering moving surfaces and the complete Lorentz force.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of motional emf and its relation to changing flux. There is no consensus on whether an induced emf is always produced by a change in magnetic flux, as some participants challenge the completeness of traditional explanations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the representation of Faraday's law and the need for careful consideration of moving surfaces and the Lorentz force in discussions of induced emf.

James Bond
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Faradays law tells us that a change in flux induces an emf. Now consider the phenomenon of motional emf. It is observed across the ends of an open conductor (ie one which is not in a circuit). It is always discussed in connection to faradays law. Where is the change in flux in the case of a straight conductor moving perpendicular to a uniform magnetic field?
Also, is the converse of faradays law true? That is, is an induced emf ALWAYS produced by a change in magnetic flux?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
Welcome to PF, commander :)

The underlying "mechanism" is the Lorentz force, for which see google. That brought about the Maxwell[/PLAIN] equations, which see idem. Faraday is basically one of them. (But the guy didn't know that at the time: Maxwell was born just about then) .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for the greetings, BvU!
So I guess the only interpretation of faradays law is through the lorentz force interpretation. Thanks for your help!
 
I used to think that motional emf could be subsumed into a rate-of-change-of-flux-linkage phenomenon by incorporating the moving conductor into a closed loop (which need not even be conducting). Then the loop area changes as the conductor moves, so there's a change of flux linkage. But there are cases like the Faraday disc which it's difficult to see as cases of circuit area changing. I believe Feynman cites other such cases. So I think that for a moving conductor it's better to regard \frac{d \Phi}{dt} as rate of cutting of flux, which it's easy to show is equivalent to (\vec{v}\times \vec{b}).d \vec{l}, based on the magnetic Lorentz force.
 
It's good to keep in mind that the fundamental physical laws underlying classical electromagnetics are the local Maxwell equations, i.e., the Maxwell equations in differential form. Much of the problems students have with the Law of Induction is that it's often represented in incomplete form. The fundamental Faraday law reads
$$\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{E}=-\frac{1}{c} \partial_t \vec{B}.$$
Using Stokes's integral Law for an arbitrary surface ##S## with boundary ##\partial S##, gives
$$\int_{\partial S} \mathrm{d} \vec{r} \cdot \vec{E}=-\frac{1}{c} \int_S \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f} \cdot \partial_t \vec{B}.$$
Now comes the tricky business. To get the usual Faraday Law in integral form, you want to take out the time derivative from the surface integral on the right-hand side. Often people don't discuss this carefully enough. If you have a moving surface, there's an additional term. Taking this properly into account, you'll get the one and only correct integral form of Faraday's Law of Induction
$$\int_{\partial S} \mathrm{d} \vec{r} \cdot \left (\vec{E}+\frac{\vec{v}}{c} \times \vec{B} \right )=-\frac{1}{c} \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} \int_S \mathrm{d}^2 \vec{f} \cdot \vec{B}.$$
Here ##\vec{v}=\vec{v}(t,\vec{x})## is the velocity field of the boundary of the surface. This tells you that you have to define the electromotive force in Faraday's law including the complete Lorentz force per unit charge and not only the electric piece. Of course, if the surface under consideration is not moving, then ##\vec{v}=0##, but only then it's correct to forget the magnetic part of the Lorentz force!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K