News Is Anyone Truly in Control Amidst the Ukrainian Crisis?

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The discussion highlights the chaotic situation in Ukraine, questioning who truly controls the protests and the government amidst escalating violence, particularly in Kiev. It notes the deep cultural and political divisions within Ukraine, with significant pro-Russian sentiments in the east and pro-European aspirations in the west. The conversation reflects on the lack of strong U.S. support for the protesters compared to past interventions during the Orange Revolution. Participants express skepticism about the motivations behind the protests, suggesting they may be influenced by foreign interests and local radicals. The overall sentiment is one of uncertainty regarding the future of Ukraine, with concerns about potential power struggles and external influences.
  • #451
OmCheeto said:
Sorry for the necro-post[1], but your image is somewhat disingenuous.

The global numbers for Russian diaspora yield the following ranking:

Ukraine....8,334,000
Kazakhstan...4,480,000
United States...3,163,084

Which would indicate, that we Americans, are third in line for the Putin Protection Program.


Of course it's disingenuous Om, I think I even pointed out that the whole thing is insane! :wink:

This way of "counting souls" as grounds for invasions and possible wars, is like Fred Flintstone popping up at the Paris Motor Show trying to impress the visitors with his brand new "Four Feet Car"... i.e. "dinosaur politics" in a global world where people travel, move, fall in love, do business, etc with whom they ever wish – without asking "The Great 21th Century Tsar" for permission.

No worries mate! I :!) you too!

If there is any 'italicization' at the horizon; I will submit my personal very strong plea, and then commit 'camaraderie-italicization-hara-kiri-silly-cide'! (:biggrin:)
 
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  • #452
Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine's disgraced former president and mass murderer, has urged the country to hold a series of regional referendums that could create more Crimea-style breakaway zones.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/725689

"As the president whose thoughts and heart are together with you, I call on each reasonable citizen of Ukraine - don’t let the impostors use you! Demand a referendum on the determination of the status of each region within Ukraine"

ukraine-president-viktor-yanukovych-preview.jpg

The man who gave nobleness a new face
 
  • #453
Vladimir Putin wants all Russians to be tough like Steven Seagal

washingtonpost.com – March 26 said:
tahhc0.jpg

Russia’s President Vladimir Putin and American action movie actor Steven Seagal visit a newly built sports
complex of Sambo-70 prominent wrestling school in Moscow. Sambo is the official in-house martial art of
the KGB security services which Putin practiced before switching to judo. (ALEXEI NIKOLSKY/AFP/Getty Images)

[...]
Few have had more experience throwing fake grenades than Steven Seagal, who, for reasons unclear, has a huge bromance going with Vladimir Putin. “I want to be polite and say I don’t know him very well,” said Seagal, wearing dark glasses and a pensive expression, in an interview last year. ”I would like to think I know him well. But I know him well enough to know that he is one of the greatest world leaders, if not the greatest world leader alive.”
[...]
Their pairing hit a crescendo when Seagal and Putin waded together into a throng of flag-waving children. Seagal, unsure, got closer to Putin, and the Russian leader proceeded to pantomime quite possible the most awkward hand gestures ever.

Seagal’s face went like this:
putin-seagal.gif



Dazzling news... what does Putin's awkward hand gesture mean? Is it a new secret Sambo weapon? Or, is this the birth of "Putin in da house coolness"? Or, is he simply turning off the gas? Does Seagal know? Does Putin know?

It's a wacky crazy world...

Anyhow, maybe it's a good sign that Putin wants all Russians to be "tough like Steven Seagal" as we all know; Seagal is a chunky worn-out B actor with too much Russian oil in the hair, which seems not to have improved intellectual capabilities noticeably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8rgWUgmR8
http://www.youtube.com/embed/nl8rgWUgmR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx6aoHc6YF4
http://www.youtube.com/embed/qx6aoHc6YF4
 
  • #454
  • #455
mheslep said:
What's next, and audience with ambassador Dennis Rodman? This is near lunatic behavior if sincere. I hope it is part of some lark or propaganda ploy: "hey look, I'm a little crazy, better not provoke me with sanctions"

Not sure why people of old become italicized, in political threads, but here's my biblical effort:

California begets Hollywood
Hollywood begets movies
Movies beget Reagan
California begets governor Reagan
America begets president Reagan
(fill in the 30 years of begets, yourself)
Reagan begets the present

The present:

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Steven Frederic Seagal, and Dennis Keith Rodman, all walk into a bar...

Nichogo ne rozumiu = Ookranski for "I know nothing"

If this were just Hollywood, it would be a very funny script.

hmmm... wait a minute...
 
  • #456
This crisis is still a complicated issue, and it seems far from over :frown:. The most distressing issue right now seems to be why all those Russian troops are still kept close to the Ukrainian border.

Russia's buildup near Ukraine may reach 40,000 troops: U.S. sources

Russia's reinforcement of troops near Ukraine has brought the total forces there to as many as 40,000, U.S. officials estimated on Friday, as the United States voiced anxiety over the buildup and called on Moscow to pull back its military.
[...]
Putin has reserved the right to send troops into Ukraine, the eastern part of which is home to a large population of Russian-speakers. On Friday, he said Russia's takeover of Crimea showed off its military prowess.

"The recent events in Crimea were a serious test," Putin was shown saying on state television. "They demonstrated both the completely new capabilities of our Armed Forces and the high morale of the personnel."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-military-idUSBREA2R1U720140328


Russia sees no need for Ukraine incursion, Tatars seek autonomy

"We have absolutely no intention of - or interest in - crossing Ukraine's borders," Lavrov said. Putin called U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday to discuss a U.S. diplomatic proposal, with the West alarmed at the threat to Ukraine's eastern flank from what U.S. officials say may be more than 40,000 Russian troops.

But Lavrov said Russia is ready to protect the rights of Russian speakers, referring to what Moscow sees as threats to the lives of compatriots in eastern Ukraine since Moscow-backed Viktor Yanukovich was deposed as president in February.

[...]

TATARS DEMAND AUTONOMY

In the Tatars historic capital of Bakhchisaray, the assembly representing the 300,000-strong indigenous Muslim minority voted in favour of seeking "ethnic and territorial autonomy" in Crimea. They make up less than 15 percent of Crimea's population of 2 million and have been overwhelmingly opposed to Russia's annexation of the territory. Crimean Tatars' assembly leader Refat Chubarov told more than 200 delegates: "In the life of every nation there comes a time when it must make decisions that will determine its future."

"I ask you to approve...the start of political and legal procedures aimed at creating ethnic and territorial autonomy of the Crimean Tatars of their historic territory of Crimea."

The assembly subsequently backed his proposal. Critical of Russia's annexation of Crimea, the Tatars boycotted the March 16 vote to split from Ukraine and become part of Russia.

Moscow has tried to pressure them to drop their opposition. However, their proposal to seek autonomy signals they would be ready to negotiate their status with Russia.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/29/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA2S0K020140329

Exclusive: Russia threatened countries ahead of UN vote on Ukraine - envoys

According to interviews with U.N. diplomats, most of whom preferred to speak on condition of anonymity for fear of angering Moscow, the targets of Russian threats included Moldova, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan as well as a number of African countries.

A spokesman for Russia's Mission to the U.N. denied that Moscow threatened any country with retaliation if it supported the resolution, saying: "We never threaten anyone. We just explain the situation."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA2R20O20140328
 
  • #457
DevilsAvocado said:
Anyhow, maybe it's a good sign that Putin wants all Russians to be "tough like Steven Seagal" as we all know; Seagal is a chunky worn-out B actor with too much Russian oil in the hair, which seems not to have improved intellectual capabilities noticeably.

I remember having been confused by something regarding Steven Seagal before, but I can't remember what it was (I think it was some geopolitics, IIRC). He sure seems to be a mysterious guy :smile::

steven_seagal_emotion_chart.jpg


EDIT: But, when I come to think of it, maybe it's not so surprising that he bromances with Putin. They're both playing tough, and they both like martial arts...
 
  • #458
DevilsAvocado said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8rgWUgmR8
http://www.youtube.com/embed/nl8rgWUgmR8



I've watched this video 4 times.

Mr. Seagal seems to share my views. :confused:

And he can pronounce "Ukraine" properly. :confused:

:confused:
 
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  • #459
OmCheeto said:
I've watched this video 4 times.

Mr. Seagal seems to share my views. :confused:

And he can pronounce "Ukraine" properly. :confused:

:confused:

I watched it again this morning. I still can't believe I am in agreement with him.
So that video aired March 9th, and on March 28th, Putin called Obama:

(CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin phoned his U.S. counterpart, Barack Obama, on Friday to discuss the tenuous situation in Ukraine -- the latest exchange between two leaders who have been at loggerheads about what's happened and what should happen next.

According to the White House, Putin called to talk about an American proposal "for a diplomatic resolution to the crisis" and the two presidents agreed that their respective top diplomats "would meet to discuss next steps."

To my knowledge, I have never watched one of Seagal's marshall arts meathead movies*, but I can imagine him sitting across from Putin, with that dead pan stare, and telling him; "Vlad, call Mr. Obama. Resolve this diplomatically, or I will karate chop your head off".

So who is this meathead?

Steven Seagal said:
[on what he thinks are the most important lessons that one should strive to live by in Aikido] Try to find the path of least resistance and use it without harming others. Live with integrity and morality, not only with people but with all beings.
:bugeye:
wiki said:
Seagal is a guitarist, recording artist, and the founder of Steven Seagal Enterprises. In addition to his professional achievements, he is also known as an environmentalist, an animal rights activist, and a supporter of the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso.
:bugeye:

Frontline: And did you think that you find the days when someone like yourself-- many people here in Los Angeles and Hollywood-- would be joining the same issue with Jesse Helms?

Seagal: My agenda has no politics. It has no economy. You see. It goes even beyond religion which is also big business and goes into simple human kindness and the way we're supposed to treat each other as human beings.

Frontline: The Dalai Lama has been received here often with open arms, tell me about the place he has in our view of Tibet. Is he the face of Tibet now for us?

Seagal: Well one of the dilemmas is that he's the spiritual leader of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism. Therefore, in many people's minds he should be not be a politician, he should be a monk, a simple monk and a spiritual leader. On the same token, this monk has to meet with other political leaders and great economic forces and struggle between two worlds and he has to walk across that bridge between the sacred and the profane and deal with both in the same day, sometimes even the same minute. And that is not easy. To me the Dalai Lama is my teacher, he's a spiritual teacher, to me he's not a political advisor. Or a statesman, he's a leader of state, not a statesman.

ca. Oct. 28, 1997 ?


:bugeye:

My apologies to Mr. Seagal. IMHO, he is not a meathead.

*I just went through his IMDb listing. I have never seen one of his movies.
 
Last edited:
  • #460
mheslep said:
What's next, and audience with ambassador Dennis Rodman? This is near lunatic behavior if sincere. I hope it is part of some lark or propaganda ploy: "hey look, I'm a little crazy, better not provoke me with sanctions"

Yup, diplomacy in a nutty shell... quite unfair if Seagal doesn't get a role as b-background actor in the upcoming movie http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/dennis-rodmans-north-korea-visit-inspires-comedy-movie-diplomats-20140224... performing wacky hand gestures... accompanied by the staring-goat-look.

Seriously, I don't know what to make of this, I'm in a 'superposition' of :bugeye::cry:... and analysis like Masha Gessen's doesn't make things calmer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QedpnfQYrrI
http://www.youtube.com/embed/QedpnfQYrrI
 
  • #461
OmCheeto said:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Steven Frederic Seagal, and Dennis Keith Rodman, all walk into a bar...

Pleazeeee Om give us The Finale! :)
 
  • #462
DennisN said:
This crisis is still a complicated issue, and it seems far from over :frown:. The most distressing issue right now seems to be why all those Russian troops are still kept close to the Ukrainian border.

Russia's buildup near Ukraine may reach 40,000 troops: U.S. sources

Russia sees no need for Ukraine incursion, Tatars seek autonomy

Exclusive: Russia threatened countries ahead of UN vote on Ukraine - envoys

Yes, totally conflicting and confusing signals... :rolleyes:
 
  • #463
DennisN said:
steven_seagal_emotion_chart.jpg

lol :biggrin:
 
  • #464
OmCheeto said:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Steven Frederic Seagal, and Dennis Keith Rodman

OT: technically that's incorrect.

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin means Vladimir Putin, son of Vladimir (Vladimirovich being a patronymic). To be consistent you should list two others as Steven Samuelovitch Seagal, and Rodman as Dennis Philanderovitch (or Philandrovitch?) Rodman.
 
  • #465
OmCheeto said:
So who is this meathead?

Well, for a man who talks about "not harming others" and "simple human kindness" and "treat each other as human beings", he sure has a funny way of making his living ...

Just as Putin - conflicting and confusing signals! :biggrin:
 
  • #466
Borek said:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin means Vladimir Putin, son of Vladimir (Vladimirovich being a patronymic). To be consistent you should list two others as Steven Samuelovitch Seagal, and Rodman as Dennis Philanderovitch (or Philandrovitch?) Rodman.

Done! Philanderovitch & Samuelovitch will have the leading parts in the upcoming http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/dennis-rodmans-north-korea-visit-inspires-comedy-movie-diplomats-20140224! :biggrin:

PS: Could this work? Vladimir Putin, Son of a gun ... :rolleyes:
 
  • #467
DevilsAvocado said:
Just as Putin - conflicting and confusing signals! :biggrin:

Excellent observation! But to clarify, is it Putin who is confused - or the rest of us?

I am going to take the view that, like a chess player, he is executing a plan in the form of a combination of moves, trying to stay a step or two ahead of his opponent. But the game he is playing is not chess, but realpolitik. The basis of his game is pragmatism, and the forbidden truth that might makes right. By contrast, the West is attempting to play a game which wraps itself in the banners of democracy, human rights and morality, i.e., ideology as opposed to pragmatism. This is analogous to why some people characterize Obama as playing marbles while Putin plays chess. It's an interesting conflict of worldviews, and a problem which hopefully works itself out in the realm of diplomacy in lieu of military conflict.
 
  • #468
In games of 19th century militiristic imperialist vs 20th century pacifist diplomat, has the 20th century pacifist diplomat ever won?
 
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  • #469
Dotini said:
I am going to take the view that, like a chess player, he is executing a plan in the form of a combination of moves, trying to stay a step or two ahead of his opponent. But the game he is playing is not chess, but realpolitik. The basis of his game is pragmatism, and the forbidden truth that might makes right.

This is probably a correct analysis – with the Red Square Goggles on.

From this "mammoth perspective"; it's absolutely clear that masked thugs with tanks always win over intellectuals with briefcases, a no-brainer.

However, "The Mammoth" is underestimating (or missing) one piece on his chessboard – the 21st century Financial Queen. The message is that they are not afraid of financial sanctions, but Putin is an old KGB agent, interested in martial art and big fat out-of-date foreign actors; not derivatives, stocks and bonds... surely there are advisors around the him that do master these things (of course), but it looks like he only wants news that makes him happy, and he doesn't use internet, and is only watching his own corrupt news channel – listening to his own messages (and this has been going on for 15 years).

A lot can go wrong in this kind of deep-frozen "Mammoth Information Bubble"...

And it already has; in the first 3 months there has been a $70 billion outflow, with an estimated $150 billion outflow this year (i.e. exceeding the record high $120 billion in 2008) in an 'optimistic' prognosis by former Russian Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin* saying; "It's sort of payment for independent foreign policy".

Of course this is only the beginning, if Russia does continue on the "Realpolitik Highway" and invade Ukraine – the Russian economy will implode in couple of weeks – any investors that do use internet or watch other news channels than Putin's, will get out of there ASAP.

There is no "Mammoth Information Bubble" that could withstand this kind of financial core meltdown.

And here is where things get scary... either Putin and his advisors has taken this scenario into account, and are indeed planning for a war that will include most/all of Europe (=complete madness XL), that they are sure they will win (=complete madness XXL), and that they will get 'their money' back in the end (=complete madness XXXL).

Or, they have absolutely no idea what to do now, and hope Putin knows what he's doing, while Putin himself is dreaming about brave massive tank battlefields, à la Battle of Stalingrad, and his Russian judo kids saving the depraved "Gayrope".

It looks like Putin has set up the "Mammoth Chessboard" to either destroy the Russian economy, or large parts of the civilized world...

Let's truly hope I'm completely wrong, and that all this will take a completely new and civilized turn, to avoid the return of dysfunctional mammoths and counterproductive 19th century chessboards.


*Hey! That's a very cheap "independent foreign policy" – on my simple calculator I get $70 billion x 4 = $280 billion outflow this year, and you will be closer to insensate than independent before New Year's Eve! >:|
 
  • #470
russ_watters said:
In games of 19th century militiristic imperialist vs 20th century pacifist diplomat, has the 20th century pacifist diplomat ever won?

Gandhi?

For pacifists, the trick to winning a conflict using pacifist strategies is: choose your enemy wisely.
 
  • #471
lisab said:
Gandhi?
Did Gandhi defeat England or did the war-weary Empire just decide to pack up and go home?
For pacifists, the trick to winning a conflict using pacifist strategies is: choose your enemy wisely.
Indeed. You need to make sure you are following them closely enough to make it look like you are chasing them when they leave!
 
  • #472
I'm curious as to what action PF Eastern European members think should be taken by their local governments. "Wait and see" might be appropriate on the other side of an ocean or two, but I don't think such is the lesson of history if one lives somewhere between the Baltic and Black Seas. More defense spending? Less? Regional alliances?
 
  • #473
mheslep said:
I'm curious as to what action PF Eastern European members think should be taken by their local governments. "Wait and see" might be appropriate on the other side of an ocean or two, but I don't think such is the lesson of history if one lives somewhere between the Baltic and Black Seas. More defense spending? Less? Regional alliances?

NATO seems to be the only chance.

Assuming it will really execute Article 5.
 
  • #474
mheslep said:
I'm curious as to what action PF Eastern European members think should be taken by their local governments.

I've been wondering the same thing for some time now, but wasn't sure if it's considered 'inappropriate' to make this kind of 'personal' inquiries... (thanks)

mheslep said:
"Wait and see" might be appropriate on the other side of an ocean or two, but I don't think such is the lesson of history if one lives somewhere between the Baltic and Black Seas. More defense spending? Less? Regional alliances?

If this goes insanely wrong; there will not be much "waiting" before a major part of the planet will be involved in one way or another... of course the Baltic--Black Sea region will get the first major blow...

Borek said:
NATO seems to be the only chance.

Assuming it will really execute Article 5.

Borek, I'm impressed that you can stay so calm about all this... I'm going bananas in this thread and my little country is probably not the main target for Putin... (unless he wants to knock out Carl Bildt for "old quarrels")

I think there's no question that NATO will act in case of a member being attacked, but this scenario is so insanely absurd, it's closer to madcap surrealism than anything else...
 
  • #476
Borek said:
NATO seems to be the only chance.

Assuming it will really execute Article 5.

HuffPo poll:
Should the US use military force if Russia attacks any of the countries listed below:
Poland: Yes, 40%. No, 32%
 
  • #477
[been thinking some more]

Dotini said:
is it Putin who is confused - or the rest of us?

Of course it's Putin who is totally and utterly confused – albeit inside his limited bubble of "yes-men-information" – it might look like he's in total control.

Motivation:
No matter how this turns out and what happens in reality – Putin is digging his own political grave.

Possible Cases:
  • I) Nothing more happens regarding Russian military invasions/war, and Ukraine gets a democratic elected President and starts rebuilding the country.

  • II) Russia invades Ukraine and deploys a pro-Russian-Puppet as President, who starts destroying the country even more (if possible).

  • III) Same as case II + Russian invasion other countries in need of "Putin's brilliant assistance", which ultimately will lead to global nuclear war and the end of everything.
Consequences:
Case I & II; Putin has destroyed the fundaments for Russian economics. The country is dependent on one commodity alone, but after global exposure of the "trigger-happy-invasion-commercial", nobody wants to be dependent on Putin for crucial energy (except maybe Kim Jong-un). EU will ASAP get other suppliers and China can't risk being in the hands of a 'borderliner' (border quarrels there as well). No developed country with a working industry, finance, infrastructure, etc, can trust this man again, i.e. there will be no one willing to do business with Putin (on large scales). His only hope is that the stuff become so scarce that his reputation doesn't matter anymore – but long before then he will be overthrown by furious Russians, kicked back (by Putin-in-full-control) to Brezhnev economics.

We can skip case III – everybody understands the status of this kind of utterly deranged tomb...

That's my guess.
 
  • #478
DevilsAvocado said:
...a member being attacked...
Define attacked, because Putin might not make it simple to recognize. Imagine: cut off of resources, force build up and border incursions from Kalingrad-Oblast, infiltrators, all while having some paid western MP stooge to say that it is all paranoia, that NATO is saber rattling, blah, blah.
 
  • #479
mheslep said:
Define attacked, because Putin might not make it simple to recognize. Imagine: cut off of resources, force build up and border incursions from Kalingrad-Oblast, infiltrators, all while having some paid western MP stooge to say that it is all paranoia, that NATO is saber rattling, blah, blah.

I wonder if Germany will re-think phasing out nuclear power.
 
  • #480
mheslep said:
Define attacked, because Putin might not make it simple to recognize. Imagine: cut off of resources, force build up and border incursions from Kalingrad-Oblast, infiltrators, all while having some paid western MP stooge to say that it is all paranoia, that NATO is saber rattling, blah, blah.

I agree, it's hard to handle masked anonymous thugs with tanks that don't play by "the rules"... more like a biker/mafia war, than an ordinary military conflict...

But I think that Crimea was an exception, it won't be as easy next time. It won't work to have 20,000 anonymous thugs demanding opponents to lay down arms and surrender. It will not work for Putin to play silly "I know nothing!" games this time. We already know he has 40-60,000 troops mobilized at the eastern border of Ukraine. Telling Merkel that he is withdrawing his men, and then 'reallocate' 800 men, won't work either. He should know there's something called satellites.

Of course, he could provoke riots among the Russian diaspora in the Baltic region, but then he has to convince Russians there that it's a good idea to die for Putin, because this is what will happen if a war between NATO and Russia breaks out. I think/hope the majority of Russians is much smarter than this. Many (most?) must have relatives that died in WWII and logically they should not have any desire to repeat this monumental catastrophe.
830px-World_War_II_Casualties.svg.png


It's one thing sitting in the sofa zapping and cheering the brave "21th Century Tsar", and a completely different thing when your life is at stake (while everybody understands that there is no real/logical reason for this 'artificial conflict').

I think/hope it will fail and that Putin will be overthrown... sooner than later.
 
  • #481
lisab said:
I wonder if Germany will re-think phasing out nuclear power.

They must do something. I can't remember the source (much news lately), but I think it was on the telly they said that Germany/EU has since 2009 been planning for lesser dependency on Russian gas, and that they've built a network of 'hubs' that will allow for EU members to 'reallocate' its resources depending on supply and demand.

Wikipedia - Energy policy of the European Union - External energy relations said:
After the Russian-Ukrainian Gas Crisis of 2009 the EU decided that the existing external measures regarding gas supply security should be supplemented by internal provisions for emergency prevention and response, such as enhancing gas storage and network capacity or the development of the technical prerequisites for reverse flow in transit pipelines.

Current/planned Russia-EU pipelines:

RF_NG_pipestoEU.gif


That will be supplemented by the Southern Gas Corridor with a capacity to deliver 60 to 120 billion cubic metres per year.

There is also development of an Africa-Europe Energy partnership and the EU-Norway energy dialogue.
 
  • #482
mheslep said:
I'm curious as to what action PF Eastern European members think should be taken by their local governments. "Wait and see" might be appropriate on the other side of an ocean or two, but I don't think such is the lesson of history if one lives somewhere between the Baltic and Black Seas. More defense spending? Less? Regional alliances?

Lithuania just voted doubling its tiny military spending. (concerning actual moves)

If get the feeling right:
-Russian behaviour is surprising because of scope but not shocking, they behave in roughly this pattern all the time. (just not all minor hostilities is newsworthy in the USA/western part of the EU)
-We see that we're going to have a standoff with Russians anyway, just the question is whether Ukraine would be occupied already occupied or not.
-We're a bit nervous about very mild reaction of western Europe. (and their perceived willingness to sacrifice someone else to avoid going into conflict)
-Normal idiotic behaviour of our politicians as usual (Kaczyński, biggest opposition party leader just said that he is willing to accept American troops on our soil, but not German)
 
  • #483
lisab said:
I wonder if Germany will re-think phasing out nuclear power.
I take it your point is that Germany might consider making nuclear weapons in response to an aggressive Russia? Like Israel, Germany could have zero commercial nuclear power plants and retain the expertise to make a weapon quickly. They have plenty of coal if the only concern is electric power. In any case, the question alone highlights the consequence should serious doubts arise about US military supremacy and a US willingness to use its abilities to support others.
 
  • #484
Czcibor said:
Lithuania just voted doubling its tiny military spending. (concerning actual moves)

...
Interesting. I'm happy to see that. If others follow suit the aggregate could be significant in two ways. First, it (several countries increasing defense spending) might deter a theoretical future Russian military move to the west if expansion was the main Russian motivation. Second, a force buildup changes the Russian (stated) calculation: aggressive behavior on their part leads directly to heavily armed nations on/near its western borders, the outcome Russia ostensibly says it does not want, where as prior to Crimea there were none.

A large caveat may be lie in the nature of pending(?) buildup. Effective military force in the 21st century has to contain some serious offensive component. Hunkering down in the bunker with purely defensive measures, e.g. the Maginot Line, was ineffective a hundred years ago and certainly ineffective today. Those would be defenders must include a way to reach out and hurt Russia as a means of defending themselves. Those kinds of weapons (i.e. missiles) are much more controversial.
 
  • #485
mheslep said:
I take it your point is that Germany might consider making nuclear weapons in response to an aggressive Russia? Like Israel, Germany could have zero commercial nuclear power plants and retain the expertise to make a weapon quickly. They have plenty of coal if the only concern is electric power. In any case, the question alone highlights the consequence should serious doubts arise about US military supremacy and a US willingness to use its abilities to support others.

I see your point about retaining capability for weaponry, but my point was aimed at energy dependence. Nuclear power has never been fully embraced in Germany, but after Fukushima there was public outcry to abandon nuclear energy -- and it was successful. IMO it was a reactionary and short-sighted decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_phase-out#Germany

Problem is, that makes Germany more dependent on foreign energy (yes I know they are moving strongly towards renewable sources, but those sources can't supply a thriving economy yet). So if Russia raises gas prices sky-high, essentially cutting off resources as you suggested in post #480, German households might get pretty chilly in coming winters.

This isn't just a German issue - but it brings attention to their decision to phase-out nuclear power.
 
  • #486
lisab said:
...
This isn't just a German issue -
...

I wonder if this is how WW1, et al, started...

I agree. It's a global issue.

Although a resurgence of imperialism was an underlying cause, the immediate trigger for war was the June 28, 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, by Yugoslav nationalist Gavrilo Princip in Sarajevo. This set off a diplomatic crisis when Austria-Hungary delivered an ultimatum to the Kingdom of Serbia, and international alliances formed over the previous decades were invoked. Within weeks, the major powers were at war and the conflict soon spread around the world.

Yay! The craziness of the OLD WORLD, is only 3 months away from being 100 years old.

Happy 100th anniversary everyone!
 
  • #487
Czcibor said:
Lithuania just voted doubling its tiny military spending. (concerning actual moves)

If get the feeling right:
-Russian behaviour is surprising because of scope but not shocking, they behave in roughly this pattern all the time. (just not all minor hostilities is newsworthy in the USA/western part of the EU)

Gosh... have they been hostile all the time since 1991?

Czcibor said:
-We see that we're going to have a standoff with Russians anyway, just the question is whether Ukraine would be occupied already occupied or not.

You're not alone; this will be the normal position for most as long as Putin and his entourage are still in power (let's hope the "kitty Riot-generation" can take over and change Russia for good).

Czcibor said:
-We're a bit nervous about very mild reaction of western Europe. (and their perceived willingness to sacrifice someone else to avoid going into conflict)

Maybe there something wrong with my information, but I don't understand this stance of "we-will-save-this-country-but-not-that-one"... I can understand your unease, but other than that, it just doesn't make sense. This is not 1938, when it comes to multilateral and intertwined relations in Europe/EU/EMU/NATO.

For example Sweden's two biggest banks Swedbank & SEB, has over 300 offices and thousands of employees in the Baltic states. I don't have the exact numbers, but it would be a fair guess that if these assets were to "be lost" in a battle with Putin, this would cause Sweden to go bankrupt, and this would without doubt start a "financial fire" in the whole of Scandinavia, which would impact the rest of EU severely (Greece would be a walk in the park in comparison).

394px-Swedbank_Headquarters_Vilnius.png

Swedbank headquarters in Vilnius

And this is only two banks we're talking about... and what is the rest of EU going to say?
- Where is FM Linas Linkevičius?
- He has been captured by Putin.
- Oh what a pity, should we continue the meeting anyway?
- Of course!

It doesn't work, does it?

There is no way we can have "a local little war" in EU and let the larger "high-rank" nations continue business as usual. This could never ever work in our times, there will be a "wildfire" of bad things happening, and the whole of EU will be involved in a matter of days, whether we like it or not.

But I can't see this happen (because this would mean Putin and his advisors are truly insane).

Czcibor said:
-Normal idiotic behaviour of our politicians as usual (Kaczyński, biggest opposition party leader just said that he is willing to accept American troops on our soil, but not German)

Perfectly normal, FM Carl Bildt has pledged to declare war if Putin attacks the Baltic states.
Problem: There is basically only FM Carl Bildt and DM Karin Enström left in our defense, after all the tax cuts... :)
 
  • #488
ajw6zo.jpg
 
  • #489
пожалуйста = please

pronounced, "Poжaloosta"

that spider looking "ж" is pronounced like the "s" in "television".

ps. everything here is approximate.
 
  • #490
DevilsAvocado said:
Gosh... have they been hostile all the time since 1991?
They tried to block Polish accession to NATO (including both diplomatic channels) and (almost for sure) espionage (Afera Olina). When some criminals stole mobile phones of children of Russian embassy staff, same number of Polish diplomats was beaten by so called "unknown perpetrators" in Moscow.

Being deprived of gas by Russian aggressive negotiations with Ukraine or Belarus is a standard event. Introducing informal embargo on some food product happens every year or two. (Last one: a few weeks ago - alleged virus) It lead to quite funny conclusion, that there are Polish food processing companies that fulfil EU standards, American standards... but are not good enough for Russia.

They quite intelligently played our politicians against each other by not giving us back remnants of our crashed presidential plane. (impossible during last 4 years)

Now Polish forums are flooded by paid Russian agitators.


Maybe there something wrong with my information, but I don't understand this stance of "we-will-save-this-country-but-not-that-one"... I can understand your unease, but other than that, it just doesn't make sense. This is not 1938, when it comes to multilateral and intertwined relations in Europe/EU/EMU/NATO.
I saw how Europe was dealing with Yugoslavia crisis. I saw how big problems were to send on French request some units to Mali and CAR. I saw stats in Germany concerning popularity of NATO. I saw how hard it was to implement any sanction first against Yanukovych and his friends, and now against Putin.

Problems:
-I'm quite nervous about reaction of more pacifistic societies in case of their politicians following game theory and making credible threats (by credible threat I would consider sending some not negligible amount of troops to threatened countries for "joint exercise")
-I'm nervous about coordination and willingness of not directly endangered countries to deploy more than moral support because coffins sent back home does not look good for sensitive societies.

(Actually I'm not nervous about trigger happy Americans, but about pacifistic Europe)

Very good argument about economic motivation - but it works two ways, including investments in Russia.
It's more a feeling: there are permanent problems to organize minor sanction/expedition, while there is risk of needing to go big. Maybe when everyone is properly p***** o** and has his economic interests endangered such obstacles are immediately overcome. Quite possible, but this lack of certainty is not something that makes someone happy in a country that borders with Russia.


OmCheeto:
"Poжawoosta"
not "l" but "w"
 
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  • #491
Czcibor said:
Introducing informal embargo on some food product happens every year or two. (Last one: a few weeks ago - alleged virus)

I believe embargo on Polish and Lithuanian pork will become formal on April 7th.
 
  • #492
Well keeping their nuclear plants or even building more won't help replace gas heat in the short or medium term.
 
  • #493
Czcibor said:
They tried to block Polish accession to NATO (including both diplomatic channels) and (almost for sure) espionage (Afera Olina). When some criminals stole mobile phones of children of Russian embassy staff, same number of Polish diplomats was beaten by so called "unknown perpetrators" in Moscow.

Being deprived of gas by Russian aggressive negotiations with Ukraine or Belarus is a standard event. Introducing informal embargo on some food product happens every year or two.

I can understand that they are upset about NATO expansions... maybe this is the main reason for the trouble in Ukraine? This mistrust is so stupid and unnecessary, Stalin and Hitler are both dead and NATO has absolutely no interest in invading Russia; that would be like blowing up your local gas station, so that you can't go to work next day. Sigh.

(Why not invite Russia to join NATO!? Well, too late now...)

Czcibor said:
I saw how Europe was dealing with Yugoslavia crisis.
[...]
(Actually I'm not nervous about trigger happy Americans, but about pacifistic Europe)

Yeah, this was a disgrace in many dimensions. Yugoslavia acted as a buffer state between the West and the Soviet Union, but I do think that current situation is quite different (and much more severe, if things go wrong). But this doesn't justify what happened, of course.

Talking about trigger-happy Americans and Yugoslavia, do you know the British pop singer James Blunt?

Wikipedia – James Blunt – Military service said:
In 1999, he served as an armoured reconnaissance officer in the NATO deployment in Kosovo. [...] His unit was given the assignment of securing the Pristina International Airport in advance of the 30,000-strong peacekeeping force; however the Russian army had moved in and taken control of the airport before his unit's arrival. American NATO commander Wesley Clark ordered that Blunt's unit forcibly take the airport from the Russian contingent. However, after Blunt queried the order, Mike Jackson, Blunt's superior officer, and Blunt himself refused to comply fearing greater consequences, with Jackson stating that they were "not going to start the Third World War" for Clark. The airport would eventually be shared peacefully by Blunt's unit and the Russians. [...] It was while on duty there that he wrote the song "No Bravery".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh41Wxez9PE


Had Blunt followed Clark's order, and opened fire at the 250 Russian troops... we probably wouldn't have this discussion today...

Trigger-happy generals are perfect for deterrent purposes, but insanely dangerous in a situation with two or more nuclear powers involved in a conflict, there is no second opinion once you pull the trigger...

In a full-blown war between EU/NATO and Russia there will be no winners, guaranteed.
 
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  • #494
DevilsAvocado said:
...

Talking about trigger-happy Americans and Yugoslavia, do you know the British pop singer James Blunt?

...

Had Blunt followed Clark's order, and opened fire at the 250 Russian troops... we probably wouldn't have this discussion today...

Trigger-happy generals are perfect for deterrent purposes, but insanely dangerous in a situation with two or more nuclear powers involved in a conflict, there is no second opinion once you pull the trigger...

In a full-blown war between EU/NATO and Russia there will be no winners, guaranteed.

:bugeye:

The things we find out about years later.

wiki re: the incident said:
...A joint NATO–Russia peacekeeping operation was supposed to police Kosovo...

According to my military training, Blunt was justified in refusing the order. Amazing that people questioned this.

hmmm...

On the other hand, Clark's image, reeks of Hollywood

220px-General_Wesley_Clark_official_photograph%2C_edited.jpg

(hmmm...) x 2

I should contact the Captain of my ship. He always struck me as a smart man.

we called him "Dirt Road" said:
...If you graduates will look up and down your row, in the next 10 years, one of you in each row will have the opportunity to change history, which is not to say that the lucky one of you will seize that opportunity, for you may not.

They come when you are tired. They are as ephemeral as a butterfly that rests on all its wings slowly moving in the corner of your eye, and when you see it, you may or may not recognize it.

If you are not prepared and do not recognize the situation for the uniqueness which it is, that iridescent moment will be gone the next time you open your eyes. There will be no record the butterfly existed. No one else will ever know history could have been altered, and history could be anything other than what it is for your children than what it is now, except you in your heart will know...

I wonder what Admiral Oliver is thinking right now.
 
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  • #495
I don't know anything about his military career (even after reading the hagiography on Wikipedia) but it takes a special sort of musical talent to progress (?) from "MTV Europe Awards best new act" in 2005 to "Elele Magazine Teen Idol of Turkey" in 2011.
 
  • #496
Does anyone know how to get ahold of Andre?

His opinion, like Spock's, matters more, than fact...
 
  • #497
OmCheeto said:
According to my military training, Blunt was justified in refusing the order. Amazing that people questioned this.

hmmm...

Agree 101%, but criticism only came from "one direction", Jackson was knighted and appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath and awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his leadership in Kosovo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8odVLSfbXm8 .
287px-Order_of_the_Bath_DSC05151.JPG

http://www.youtube.com/embed/8odVLSfbXm8

OmCheeto said:
On the other hand, Clark's image, reeks of Hollywood

220px-General_Wesley_Clark_official_photograph%2C_edited.jpg

(hmmm...) x 2

Hollywood looks like a safe playground... maybe more worrying is that the man was running for office in 2004 & 2008... could you imagine this guy as President* in current mess?? :rolleyes:

*Probably only Sarah Palin would be a less appealing alternative

OmCheeto said:
I should contact the Captain of my ship. He always struck me as a smart man.

we called him "Dirt Road" said:
...If you graduates will look up and down your row, in the next 10 years, one of you in each row will have the opportunity to change history, which is not to say that the lucky one of you will seize that opportunity, for you may not.

They come when you are tired. They are as ephemeral as a butterfly that rests on all its wings slowly moving in the corner of your eye, and when you see it, you may or may not recognize it.

If you are not prepared and do not recognize the situation for the uniqueness which it is, that iridescent moment will be gone the next time you open your eyes. There will be no record the butterfly existed. No one else will ever know history could have been altered, and history could be anything other than what it is for your children than what it is now, except you in your heart will know...

I wonder what Admiral Oliver is thinking right now.

Thanks Om! Brilliant! :thumbs::!):thumbs:

Call the Admiral and ask him what we should do, right now, please! :cry:


PS: I never liked it, but sometimes I wonder if not MWI is true after all... the whole thing has gone down the drain several times during history... we're just a bunch of lucky bastards that happened to wind up in the right fork...
500px-Schroedingers_cat_film.svg.png
 
  • #498
Czcibor said:
OmCheeto:
"Poжawoosta"
not "l" but "w"

kakoi "w" :D, it's pronounced "po-ža:-lus-ta"
 
  • #499
lendav_rott said:
kakoi "w" :D, it's pronounced "po-ža:-lus-ta"
I'm really more familiar with pronunciation "pa-žaw-sta".

Anyway, maybe that's matter of not pronunciation as such but its further transcription (no, I don't feel confident about writing anything in phonetic transcription of English), here is just link to a recording:
http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson3_main.php
 
  • #500
Czcibor said:
I'm really more familiar with pronunciation "pa-žaw-sta".

Anyway, maybe that's matter of not pronunciation as such but its further transcription (no, I don't feel confident about writing anything in phonetic transcription of English), here is just link to a recording:
http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson3_main.php

Can we not "go there", and just agree to disagree? I find pronunciation threads quite painful.
 

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