News Is Anyone Truly in Control Amidst the Ukrainian Crisis?

[Czcibor]

за россию и украину (za rosea ee ookraeenoo = in russia and ukraine)
без путина (vez pooteena = without putin)

My Russian is really bad.

Does that not say; "Get Putin out of the Ukraine and Russia" ?

I don't feel too confident (I have been learning it many years ago) about my Russian, but I'd rather translate it as "For Russia and Ukraine without Putin".

Yeah for sure they mean both countries without Putin.

EDIT: Anyway, there are presumably 3 areas (except Caucasus) where opposition is strong - Moscow, Petersburg (both big cosmopolitan and well educated cities) and Kaliningrad (inhabitants got demoralized while making big shopping every few months in the EU, usually in Gdańsk).

 

[OmCheeto]

I don't feel too confident (I have been learning it many years ago) about my Russian, but I'd rather translate it as "For Russia and Ukraine without Putin".

Yeah for sure they mean both countries without Putin.

My aunt, on my father's side, joined a society once, called the "Germans from Russia". It is an American genealogical club.

In 1985, I studied the Russian language at university, as a foreign language was required. I'd already studied the German language for 4 years in high School, as my mother was from Germany/Poland(ask Borek).

Anyways, to make a long story short:

Some of my ancestors were from the suburbs of Odessa*, which is in the Ukraine.
I studied the wrong language, apparently.
But when my Russian friends first saw me, about 5 years ago, one of them said to the other; "He looks Ukrainian".

I thought I was a German from Russia, but now I'm Ukrainian?

I've only met one Ukrainian. He looks just like my brother, and thinks just like me.

ergo...

-------------------------
*I know this, as my mother translated, and I transcribed, letters, saved by my aunt, postmarked from Odessa, back in 1986.

ps. Tack for the translation the other day.

 

[Borek]

For Russia and Ukraine, no doubt about it.

That's from someone who read "Преступлéние и наказáние" last summer, just to make sure he is still able to read Russian.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

It seems it is a really delicate moment right now;

Yes, 'delicate' indeed...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/ukraine-crisis-repel-idUSL3N0MC0BW20140315

"The border guard service said Ukrainian forces had taken up defensive positions on Arbatskaya Strelka, running parallel to the east of Crimea, now controlled by Russian forces. It said about 60 Russian troops had landed on the strip and begun digging in, assisted by three armoured personnel carriers.

Six Russian helicopters arrived with 60 more servicemen about two hours later outside the village of Strelkovoye. The border guard service said talks between the two sides established that the Russian servicemen were "guarding against possible terrorist acts" against a gas pumping station."​

theguardian.com – Ukraine's president fears Russia could invade after Crimea referendum

"Acting leader claims Kremlin is behind turmoil in eastern Ukraine and there is 'real danger' Moscow could seize more territory"

If Putin manage to run this mess into 'worst scenario'... will there be a new political term then?

KAPUTTINISM

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Does that not say; "Get Putin out of the Ukraine and Russia" ?

Jag vet ingenting!

... but I hope you're right ...


P.S: Isn't it 'strange' that CNN International has not mentioned one word about this... they keep on mangle the lost plane... is it the same in the domestic version?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

"For Russia and Ukraine without Putin".

For Russia and Ukraine, no doubt about it.

Wow! Yes!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

That's from someone who read "Преступлéние и наказáние" last summer, just to make sure he is still able to read Russian.

That's a good one, they say Obama is reading another classic right now... Crimea and Punishment...

()

 

[lendav_rott]

Crimea and Punishment? :D :D:

 

[m k]

Get back on topic or the thread will be locked.

PC now?

 

[DennisN]

Crimea and Punishment

Ukraine, Russia agree Crimea truce until March 21 (Reuters);

(Reuters) - The defense ministries of Ukraine and Russia have agreed on a truce in Crimea until March 21, Ukraine's acting defense minister said on Sunday.

"An agreement has been reached with (Russia's) Black Sea Fleet and the Russian Defense Ministry on a truce in Crimea until March 21," Ihor Tenyukh told journalists on the sidelines of a cabinet meeting.

"No measures will be taken against our military facilities in Crimea during that time. Our military sites are therefore proceeding with a replenishment of reserves."

(Reporting by Natalya Zinets, Writing by Ron Popeski; Editing by Richard Balmforth)

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/us-ukraine-crisis-truce-idUSBREA2F0DP20140316

 

[OmCheeto]

Well this is interesting.

Ukraine crisis: Early results show Crimea votes to join Russia

Perevalnoye, Ukraine (CNN) -- Preliminary results in Sunday's referendum on whether Ukraine's Crimea region should join Russia or become an independent state overwhelmingly show support for Russia.

With 50% percent of the ballots counted, more than 95% of voters want to become part of that country, according to Crimean Electoral Commission head Mikhail Malyshev.

95%.
Wow.
I wonder why they voted that way?

http://www.cnn.com/video/api/embed.html#/video/world/2014/03/15/bts-crimean-voices.cnn

I wonder what that would be like in America? Would it be like Northern California wanting to join with Oregon? Or would it be like Laredo* Texas wanting to join Mexico?

It has been my experience that language plays a big role in how people identify themselves. The letters that my mother translated were all written in German, though they originated from the Ukraine.

Here's an interesting map from the Crimea State Medical University:

http://www.csmuedu.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/300px-RussianUseEn.png​

But that's kind of a silly thought. Using that logic, one would assume that all of the Québécois would want to secede from Canada.

*Per Wiki, Laredo Texas is 95.6% Hispanic or Latino, and borders Mexico. Not that I think they would want to secede.

 

[gfd43tg]

I am confused about the whole situation. Some political turmoil occurs in Ukraine...then Russia takes the opportunity to come into the country and set up a poll to allow the people to vote to secede from the Ukraine?

How did politics in Ukraine equate to Russia trying to gain more territory??

 

[russ_watters]

I am confused about the whole situation. Some political turmoil occurs in Ukraine...then Russia takes the opportunity to come into the country and set up a poll to allow the people to vote to secede from the Ukraine?

How did politics in Ukraine equate to Russia trying to gain more territory??

The opportunity presented itself.

 

[gfd43tg]

So, obviously before the cold war was over, that land was part of the Soviet Union. So the Russians just want to take back what was previously theirs.

This sounds like the issue with Israel/Palestine fighting over who deserves the land.

 

[Czcibor]

Well this is interesting.



95%.
Wow.
I wonder why they voted that way?

Because Putin is destined to lose no elections or referendum when he supervises it?

Anyway, I consider Putin's outcome as mediocre. Referendum in Austria about their annexation in 1938 got 99,73% for "YES".

http://www.csmuedu.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/300px-RussianUseEn.png​

Which is somewhat misleading because people who consider themselves as Ukrainians and Tatars are counted as Russians because of language.

A more realistic would be a census from 2001:

[PLAIN]http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/20140301_FBM909_1.png[/CENTER]​

 

[OmCheeto]

Because Putin is destined to lose no elections or referendum when he supervises it?

Ha! It took me a few minutes to figure out where I'd heard something to this effect. LisaB and I were recently discussing the history of the region, when I ran across the following:

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

Anyway, I consider Putin's outcome as mediocre. Referendum in Austria about their annexation in 1938 got 99,73% for "YES".

Kim Jong Un would have probably been very upset with such a close vote.

But in all seriousness, please keep us informed of what is going on. As the Ukraine's next door neighbor, you are hopefully a much better newsfeed than CNN.

Dziękuję i dobranoc. (Thank you, and good night)

 

[Czcibor]

Kim Jong Un would have probably been very upset with such a close vote.

But in all seriousness, please keep us informed of what is going on. As the Ukraine's next door neighbor, you are hopefully a much better newsfeed than CNN.

Dziękuję i dobranoc. (Thank you, and good night)

"Dobranoc"? U mnie jest wczesny ranek ("Good night"? It's early morning here)

Anyway, I've just learned that Putin already had much better results, like 107%. It seems that his popularity declines...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/w...votes-for-putin-abound-in-chechnya.html?_r=1&


Concerning languages: I've read a report of a person who recently visited Kiev (so a place that recently was not specially pro-Russia ;) ). He mentioned that he heard Russian more often than Ukrainian. His conclusion was that this whole conflict was not ethnic based, but more citizens vivid about corruption overthrowing gov.

We operate here using term "nations". In practice I think that there is a continuum among Slavic nations. Both in Poland and Ukraine you have within countries strong difference between the western part and eastern. Plus differences in views based on education, age and size of city. (So if a Western journalist interviews a university student who speak fluent English then would for sure get a strong pro-Western answers :D )

 

[DevilsAvocado]

;)

Ukraine, Russia agree Crimea truce until March 21 (Reuters);

That's at least something 'positive'. Don't want to be a party pooper, but today Kiev announced that beside the already 40,000 mobilized reserves, they will mobilize 40,000 more...

And yesterday we experienced a historical peak of democracy in the civilized world, 'voting' at the end of a barrel of a gun.

[BBC/GETTY IMAGES]

16 МАРТА Мы ВЫБИРАЕМ
или

MARCH 16, we choose
[Nazism] or [Über-Sized-Gas-Nationalism]

So what are they going to do with the 42% non Russians, that according to this "Stonehenge Logic" are Nazis? Send them to a reopened Gulag??

And what are they going to do with the Ukrainian/Crimean offshore gas fields on the continental shelf of the Black Sea and Sea of Azov? Operated by Chornomornaftogaz (an oil and gas company in Simferopol) with total reserves of 58.6 billion cubic metres of natural gas, 1.231 million tons of gas condensate, and 2.53 million tons of crude oil? And rest of Ukrainian property?

The Crime_an deputy prime minister Rustam Temirgaliev has said that the new owner of the company would be (Putin's) Gazprom.

This looks like a mafia deal arranged by Hells Angels...

[Does Merkel really want this kind of gas in her stove?]

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Crimea and Punishment? :D :D:

Yes, Преступлéние и наказáние ;)

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Kim Jong Un would have probably been very upset with such a close vote.

Yup, especially since it is Kim Jong-un who votes on what kind of citizens he wants.

 

[Dotini]

I am confused about the whole situation. Some political turmoil occurs in Ukraine...then Russia takes the opportunity to come into the country and set up a poll to allow the people to vote to secede from the Ukraine?

How did politics in Ukraine equate to Russia trying to gain more territory??

The opportunity presented itself.

Yes. There was a revolution in Kiev, with things in a mess. While the revolutionaries were still getting organized, Putin acted. The revolution obviously is ongoing, and actions far from complete.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

So, obviously before the cold war was over, that land was part of the Soviet Union. So the Russians just want to take back what was previously theirs.

That's what Putin wants you to believe, but he 'forget' to tell you that in 1954 USSR gave Crimea to Ukraine, and in 1994 Russia signed an agreement to never ever invade or threaten Ukraine.

And the "previously theirs" logic fails, because how far should we go? Before Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Crown of the Kingdom of Poland, Crimean Khanate, Ottoman Empire, Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth; the legal owners of Crimea was the Roman Empire in the 1st century BC.

Does this give Berlusconi the right to invade Crimea [and "save" a few hundred Italian tourists], in case of his [not likely] comeback?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Here's an interesting map from the Crimea State Medical University:

http://www.csmuedu.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/300px-RussianUseEn.png​

But that's kind of a silly thought.

Not only silly but false.

Percentage of native Ukrainian speakers by subdivision

Percentage of native Russian speakers by subdivision

 

[Borek]

Apart from the fact all these data can be wrong, I don't see a discrepancy between them - you can be a native speaker but "use" a different language for whatever reasons.

I have no idea what "use" means in this context, it can mean everything.

 

[Dotini]

If I were a revolutionary strategist, I would be rushing all possible bodies into Odessa. If access to the Black Sea is lost, the revolution might well be doomed.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I don't see a discrepancy between them

I meant "false" as in "ridiculously biased". I'm surely not an expert on this, but isn't it a fact that most native Ukrainians do speak Russian, also?

Then claims like "dominates absolutely" is just another Putin prank, right? (in order to 'divide and conquer')

And 5% is usually not the same as 97-75%... unless we use Putin's calculator from 1945...

 

[mheslep]

Obama's anticipated executive order seizing assets went out today. Seven Russians (and 4 Ukrainians)? Seems thin in response to Putin's statement today that Crimea is now "a sovereign and independent state." Probably should have taken no action rather than one likely deemed frivolous by the Russians.

Vladislav Surkov, Presidential Aide
Sergey Glazyev, Presidential Aide
Leonid Slutsky, member Fed Council
Andrei Klishas, member Fed Council
Valentina Matviyenko, Fed Council Speaker
Dmitry Rogozin, Deputy PM
Yelena Mizulina, member Fed Council

Dmitry Rogozin, tweets:

"I think some prankster prepared the draft of this Act of the US President"

Comrade @BarackObama, what should do those who have neither accounts nor property abroad? Or U didn't think about it?) http://t.co/16KUTJPXOl

 

[lisab]

Regarding the language maps: those data mean nothing without population density data. (So what if an area is 100% Russian speaking if only three people live there, for example.)

Some of the population density maps I've found disagree with others, and I have no way to verify the truth. But most show the western portion as more densely populated.

 

[OmCheeto]

Regarding the language maps: those data mean nothing without population density data. (So what if an area is 100% Russian speaking if only three people live there, for example.)

Some of the population density maps I've found disagree with others, and I have no way to verify the truth. But most show the western portion as more densely populated.

I have no idea either. Maps are hard.

And secession is serious business.

American went through a secessionist period just two years ago.

I say, let the Irish decide, on whether or not the Crimea can succeed. (hic!)

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Putin is talking live about Crime_a now. (Welcoming it to the Russian crimepire)

And yesterday Russian television anchor Dmitry Kiselyov said "http://news.yahoo.com/state-tv-says-russia-could-turn-us-radioactive-212003397.html" ... ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y90lnQKx888


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWya-HGGo2c




* I'm about to throw up any minute now... can some please tell me it's a bad dream... please *