Is Cooling Without Work Possible Under the Sun's Heat?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of cooling water under the sun's heat without performing work, examining this phenomenon through the lens of the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore concepts related to heat transfer, evaporation, and entropy in both theoretical and practical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that holding a pitcher of water under the sun leads to cooling due to heat transfer from hot to cold without work, questioning how this aligns with the second law of thermodynamics.
  • Others argue that the water actually warms up when exposed to sunlight, particularly if evaporation is prevented, suggesting that heat transfer typically occurs from hot to cold bodies.
  • Concerns are raised about the role of evaporation in cooling, with some stating that evaporation results in a decrease in temperature and an increase in entropy, indicating a complex interaction between heat and mass transfer.
  • One participant explains that the kinetic energy of water molecules is involved in vaporization, converting heat energy into latent heat, which does not change the temperature of the water directly.
  • Another viewpoint emphasizes that evaporation requires a driving force related to vapor pressure differences, and that this process can lead to a decrease in the overall energy content of the liquid water.
  • Some participants reference Clausius' statement regarding heat transfer, debating whether work is necessary for heat to flow from cold to hot bodies and how evaporation fits into this framework.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of Clausius' statement, with some asserting that evaporation constitutes the "other change" that allows for heat transfer without work.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the effects of sunlight on water temperature, the role of evaporation, and the implications of the second law of thermodynamics.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes unresolved assumptions about the conditions under which cooling occurs, the definitions of work and heat transfer, and the specific circumstances of evaporation and its effects on entropy.

persia7
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if you hold a pitcher of water under sun you sea cooling of water in it, you transfer heat from hot to cool without do work, how do you explain it according with second law of thermodynamics?
 
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persia7 said:
if you hold a pitcher of water under sun you sea cooling of water in it
No, the water gets warmer, not cooler. Especially if your pitcher is sealed to prevent evaporation.

persia7 said:
you transfer heat from hot to cool without do work, how do you explain it according with second law of thermodynamics?
Yes, heat goes from the hot body to the cold body without work. That is what the 2nd law of thermo says should happen.
 
if there is evaporation it cools and heat transfer from cold to hot how do u explain it?
 
persia7 said:
if there is evaporation it cools and heat transfer from cold to hot how do u explain it?

If there is evaporation, you do not have a closed system. Evaporation makes the entropy increase.
 
The molecules in the water are doing the work of vaporizing the blob of water. The molecules use their kinetic energy to do that.

kinetic energy of molecules= heat, more heat = higher temperature
being vaporized = latent heat, more latent heat = no change of temperature

The heat energy of the water is turning into the latent heat energy of the water.

The temperature of the water is going down. There's no rise of temperature of anything. There is no change of energy of anything.
 
persia7 said:
if there is evaporation it cools and heat transfer from cold to hot how do u explain it?
If there is evaporation then the air is initially too dry, which is a low-entropy state. The evaporation continues until the water vapor in the air is at the vapor pressure, which is a high-entropy state. Thus the entropy can increase even though the temperature decreases.
 
In addition, you transfer a lot of energy from a very hot system (the sun) to a cold system (anything on earth).
 
for heat to flow from hot to cold body there should be driving force which is temp difference..

but evaporation is case of mass transfer..in which driving force is difference between the vapor pressure and saturation pressure of water at that temp. As the difference increases evaporation increases and finally comes to an equilibrium state when two pressure become equal.

Clausius statement is that no heat can be transferred from cold to hot until work is done.
work is done to create the driving force( temp difference). here when air whose relative humidity is less then 100% comes,it swept away vapors with it from liquid surface thus lowering the vapor pressure and creating a driving force.

in the fig,cylinder is insulated from sides.when vapor pressure decreases,molecules at surface of water extract energy from neighboring molecules and become vapors,thus lowering the over all energy content of liquid water(temp).
 

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according to clasius statement there must be work, where is work?
 
  • #10
That has already been explained:
mfb said:
In addition, you transfer a lot of energy from a very hot system (the sun) to a cold system (anything on earth).
 
  • #11
persia7 said:
according to clasius statement there must be work, where is work?
This is a distortion of Clasius' statement. His statement was "Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time." See p 117 here. Evaporation is "some other change, connected therewith".
 

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