B Is Extra Terrestrial Life Possible in This Universe?

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The discussion centers on the possibility of extraterrestrial life, particularly in relation to exoplanets and the conditions necessary for life to exist. Key points include the requirement for a suitable star, with optimal mass for longevity, to support life on a planet or moon within its habitable zone. The conversation also explores the likelihood of carbon-based life forms, suggesting that carbon's abundance and versatility make it a prime candidate for building complex life, potentially leading to DNA-based replication methods. Participants emphasize the vastness of the universe, arguing that the probability of life existing elsewhere is high, though the nature and intelligence of such life remain speculative. Overall, the thread highlights the complexities and uncertainties surrounding extraterrestrial life while affirming its potential existence.
  • #51
My money is on nanobots as our most likely first contact experience. It makes sense that biological life elsewhere would find interstellar travel impractical and opt for robotic missions, not unlike our current efforts. The big plusses for nanobots are cheap, robust and disposable. Advanced nanobots could conceivably construct outposts and even initiate life on suitable planets. Plus, it's a technology realistically within our scientific grasp.
 
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  • #52
Nanobots could also be used as a deliberate way to distribute the species - you'd have to assume others may try to so some would be anti-nanobot-bots ... oooh... nanobot berserker wars...
 
  • #53
It would, of course, most likely be life as 'they' know it.
 
  • #54
Before we can answer this question intelligently, I think we need to answer another one: How would you decide if a thing is a form of life, or not? Suppose you are walking along the beach, and there's this purple blob lying in the surf. Is it alive? I submit that the phenomenon must be examined over a suitable duration. That's because life is characterized by processes, not mere static structures, that occur in time. Ingestion of matter/energy, growth, reproduction, all take time. There's an arrow in time for all living processes. It's as though living things are moving toward some goal. The material components exist and take their properties from the need to 'function', i.e. to support the essential processes of life. The best you can do by merely inspecting or dissecting the structure of the purple blob is to determine if it once was living. Perhaps, try a thought experiment. You are exploring and exoplanet and you come across something like the purple blob, how would you know if it is alive or not?

Life, the thing and the process, has to take in energy and matter in order to create more of itself. Just guaranteeing that genetic information is faithfully copied imposes costs in energy on systems that correct the errors that inevitably occur during replication of that information. The growth of information, which is what replication is, is equivalent to loss of entropy. The highly ordered, information-containing and propagating structures of living organisms cannot exist for very long if entropy holds sway. The entropy of a system can only decrease if energy is added to it, which requires influxes from the environment. Thus, living organisms must be open systems, thermodynamically speaking, in order to defeat the second law. And of course reproduction of an organism requires that it increase in mass between reproductive events.

We don't have to go to exoplanets to confront the question. There are the viruses. You can sample a batch of viruses to see if it creates more of them. It won't. So are viruses alive? Not by themselves. You can only uncover evidence they are alive when the viruses are exposed to the right kinds of living cells. In order to exhibit a living process, viruses must steal matter and energy from other life forms to carry to grow and reproduce. Regardless of how and where they do it, I would consider viruses living. But again, I would have to spend time with viruses before I could answer the question. The other candidates I have in mind are the prions. Prions are protein molecules that reproduce themselves inside living organisms which, like viruses, die from the internal buildup of these molecules. Are prions living? I"m not sure...
 
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  • #55
So many problems with this thread...but there's a LOT of great information also! I'll focus on the problems. Life. We can't even define it, we certainly shouldn't pretend to know where it might exist. We mean LAWKI, life-as-we-know-it. It is, imho, a tautology to then claim life needs "Earth-like" environments. One thing we do know is that life requires an energy source, as well as sufficiently complex chemistry, and, virtually certainly, variation in the energy gradient as well as variation in the chemical environment. It is massively arrogant to claim that life can't exist under the surface of planets without a star (as long as, say, geothermal energy is available, or perhaps even gravitational energy).Evolution of life: it requires a hospitable environment. Any planet which has 'frequent' extinction level bombardments, or collisions which strip the atmosphere (or hydrosphere) may not allow life to evolve. Add cosmic radiation (supernovae, black holes, etc.) and the number of 'Earth-like' planets might be much less than the numbers thrown around here. We just don't know; nor do we understand star system evolution well enough to be say what fraction of Earth-sized planets are "Earth-like". Based on history, our civilization won't last another 500 years. StarTrek is FICTION. There ARE limits to technology. Or perhaps you can point to a new energy source we've discovered since 1933? We already have nanobots: they're called bacteria. No life exists alone, lawki exists in a complex living environment, its not likely, imho, that nanobots will be any different. What reason do you have to suppose in 500 years that civilization will be technological? Why not back to ox carts and feudalism? It isn't about intelligence, imho, its about our ability (or lack of) to control our individual emotional responses to address existential dangers. Are we capable of it? IDK, but I fear we aren't. Also, be aware that DNA from Earth has made its way to all of the inner and probably some of the outer solar system. We can't say definitively how many different trees of life developed on (or now exist on or under) Earth. At least one, but we have established no upper limit. We don't know whether RNA/DNA was enevitable or one of several likely possibilities. (but AFAIK, no other good choices (for lawki) exist.)
 
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  • #56
ogg said:
So many problems with this thread...but there's a LOT of great information ..
Yeah, especially when it hit Arecibo message. Life is beautiful.
ogg said:
...We don't know whether RNA/DNA was enevitable or one of several likely possibilities. (but AFAIK, no other good choices (for lawki) exist.)
I don't know about the "inevitable", but...
Simon Bridge said:
Replicators without RNA/DNA ... answered in another forum:
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-molecules-besides-RNA-and-DNA-that-can-self-replicate
...
 
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  • #57
Unfortunately, we are unavoidably constrained by our existing knowledge of biology, so, RNA based life is the only form we can speak about with any scientific authority.
 
  • #58
In these discussions, someone usually points out the issue of "how do we identify life?" ... there is currently no problem identifying what counts as life and lots of discussion about the boundary/borderline cases that have been identified in the biology literature. It is clearly possible to have a study of a group that is incompletely defined - and we can talk about the possibility of other places supporting members of the group.

It is implicit to these discussions that the "life" would be what we would be able to identify using our existing knowledge. We may want to extend the definition later as we make more discoveries - but right now, biologists have no trouble identifying objects within their field of study.
 
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  • #59
Mark Harder said:
Prions are protein molecules that reproduce themselves
Hi Mark:

I wonder if you can clarify this for me. My understanding is that prions do reproduce in any sense other than the way proteins are reproduced. Rather a priion converts a different form of the same protein molecule into it's own form. If this is correct, why does that qualify as "reproduction"? Surely this is just a stretch of semantics.

The reproductive process is still: DNA->DNA followed by DNA->T-RNA->protein. Then this particular protein happens to be able to form itself into two different shapes, and one of these two shapes can subsequently change the other shape into its own shape.

Regards,
Buzz
 
  • #60
We will have a much better understanding on biology in the next few decades. As we explore worlds that may harbor life, both finding it and not finding it would provide more information about the likelihood of life. I'm partial to the idea that if you put all of the raw materials and water in something that'll mix it, you'll eventually get life. Planets are really really big mixing bowls and have long long times to mix.
 
  • #61
Sorry to hear about your Mother's passing away, my sympathies.
I do think there is life elsewhere in the universe.
 

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