Is it the correct representation of Electromagnetic waves?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the representation of electromagnetic (EM) waves, particularly the relationship between the electric and magnetic fields in terms of their phase and behavior as described by electromagnetic laws. Participants explore theoretical aspects, mathematical representations, and conceptual clarifications regarding the nature of EM waves.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that in a plane EM wave, the electric and magnetic fields are in phase, meaning they reach their maximum and minimum values simultaneously.
  • Others argue that the mathematical representation of sinusoidal waveforms suggests a 90-degree phase shift, where the magnetic field is maximum when the electric field is zero and vice versa.
  • A participant references Maxwell's equations to support the claim that the curl of the electric field relates to the rate of change of the magnetic field, implying that both fields are in phase.
  • Another participant suggests that the original poster may be conflating the behavior of EM waves with that of a capacitor, where the change in one field produces the other, rather than them being directly related in EM radiation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the electric and magnetic fields in EM waves are in phase or exhibit a phase shift. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing interpretations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference mathematical relationships and physical laws, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the implications of these equations and their application to the representation of EM waves.

goodname
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Below is the Wikipedia URL shows the shape of EM wave.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Onde_electromagnetique.svg"

Electromagnetic laws say that'

"changing magnetic field produce electric field and changing electric field produce magnetic field"

In the representation of EM waves, In an instant, the magnitude of electric field and magnitude of magnetic field at a point in the propagation direction are equal in magnitude but their directions are perpendicular to each other and to the propagation direction. It shows electric field and magnetic field are simultaneously zero at a time and simultaneously maximum at another time.

Both are sinusoidal. Mathematically for sinusoidal waveform, maximum change occurs at zero crossing and minimum change occurs at its peak value. So magnetic field should be maximum when electric filed is zero. Similarly electric filed should be maximum when magnetic filed is zero. This makes 90 degree phase shift in actual EM wave propagation diagram. So which is the correct representation?
 
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goodname said:
In the representation of EM waves, In an instant, the magnitude of electric field and magnitude of magnetic field at a point in the propagation direction are equal in magnitude but their directions are perpendicular to each other and to the propagation direction. It shows electric field and magnetic field are simultaneously zero at a time and simultaneously maximum at another time.
That--and the diagram you linked--is correct. In a plane EM wave, the magnetic and electric fields are in phase.

Both are sinusoidal. Mathematically for sinusoidal waveform, maximum change occurs at zero crossing and minimum change occurs at its peak value. So magnetic field should be maximum when electric filed is zero. Similarly electric filed should be maximum when magnetic filed is zero. This makes 90 degree phase shift in actual EM wave propagation diagram.
It's not so simple. You have to look to what Maxwell's equations actually say about how changing electric and magnetic fields relate. The curl of the electric field equals the (negative) rate of change of the magnetic field:

<br /> \nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}} {\partial t}<br />

When you work out the details, that implies that the magnetic field (B) is in phase with the electric field (E) for a plane sinusoidal wave.
 
Thanks Doc Al
 
professional,I do not know what it is,embrassing
 
Doc Al said:
The curl of the electric field equals the (negative) rate of change of the magnetic field:

<br /> \nabla \times \mathbf{E} = -\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}} {\partial t}<br />

When you work out the details, that implies that the magnetic field (B) is in phase with the electric field (E) for a plane sinusoidal wave.
To expand on that a bit, the curl is a measure of how much the E field is changing spatially, that is highest at the zero crossing. Then the time derivative is a measure of how much the B field is changing wrt time, which is also highest at the zero crossing. So they must reach their zero crossings at the same time, which means they are in phase.
 
I think the OP is thinking of a capacitor or that it might work like a capacitor (not unreasonable) where the change in one field produces the other.However in EM radiation it seem they are directly related to each other not by the rate of change.
http://www.piclist.com/images/www/hobby_elec/e_ckt20_2.htm
 

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