Is OS 012 a legitimate and rational global dialectic?

[Moonrat]

My opponent, Nico, has been seduced, through playful theatre, in challenging a new dialectic that was created on the internet called OS 012. It was not created by myself, I was just the person who found myself in the center of it, and became so to speak the 'scribe' of it through discussion with hundreds and thousands of global citisens challenging it.

OS 012 is not a group, organisation, philosophy, metaphysics, or religion. It is basically just an idea, a global dialectic that was formed and will continue to form through discussion.

It is free of charge and in the public domain. Posted on a website.

so here is the first challenge to OS 012 from this forum, and in this I am greatly excited. through this process, I hope to come to greater understanding of OS 012, and I hope that OS 012 will also be upgraded to more dominant ideas through this.


Here goes...

Nico, what do you have to say? (this discussion was seeded on the truth thread)

Alright, this has moved beyond the point of any possible fruitful discussion. You basically hijacked this thread to erroneously crticize a small point of mine because you are ignorant.

I did not hijack it because I was ignorant. I hijacked it to instigate a discussion about the nature of truth in relation to OS 012. I have much to learn about symbolic logic, and you are helping me.

SO I ask we start again with a clean slate, and end the personal attacks, if you continue to do this, you will only have your own words thrown back at you, and they are irrelevant inside of a rational discussion.

We all have much to learn, and no one holds the keys to all truth or knowledge, so let's come down off of our pedastal and engage like to thinking human beings, shall we?

I will say this before I continue, what you have failed to do is understand the differences and the commonality of necessary, analytic, logical, and contingent truth propositions. This is all over your head.

If what you are saying is true, then I hope to become enlightend by what you have to share in this regard

However, I have taken a little look at your website Moonrat/Bubblefish and I now see the error of my ways everyone. I was "arguing" with an idiot.

tsk tsk, not a very nice way to address your opponent inside of a discussion. and you still seem to be arguing with me, so if I am an idiot, who is more idiotic, me, or the 'intellectual' who loves discussing with me and challenging the ideas?

I have much to learn, Nico, but I am no idiot. I would be an idiot if I thought otherwise.

I decided to, instead responding to your repitive nonsense (and if you don't see how "art=false" is a faulty equivocation than you are an absurd little person) I would share some new found knowledge of your perspective and your highly irrational and chaotic mind.

Please do expose my irrationality, that is what OS 012 is all about, I can't hope to know what is certain without you or anyone else.

art is FALSE in objective reality, and I will explain to you how I came to this conclusion. there is a perspective here that you have not yet gleened, just like there is a perspective about you that I have not yet seen.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this Moonrat, is actually an agent of an absurd Internet cult/movement or whatever you want to call it spawned out of some anti-war agenda or something. Here is the website so everyone can follow along:

http://www.highintelligence.com/

well, you got the website right, but I must challenge your assertation here ( I thought you don't like naked assertations?)

One, I really don't appreciate the deception of calling OS 012, or me, a cult, or internet cult, or anything assosiated with such garbage. There is no group, I am in no group, and any such refrence is misleading. I am a user of OS 012, just like anyone else. I am no more important than any other OS 012 user.

However, even if this was a cult, that is irrelevant about the ideas contained inside of OS 012, so let's just focus on the ideas, and not any image you have about it in your head, k?

You are correct in saying that is was born out of the anti-war movement, and the goal of OS 012 is to create a functioning and rational world peace, yes, this is true.

 

[Moonrat]

Yes everyone, this is why I call him/her bubblefish. Actualy the reason Moonrat is on this board is because of this "infiltration," see here:

"Bubblefish infiltrates Internet BBS! [lurk.withdraw.upon them] "
Please don't think this inane; we haven't gotten to the good stuff yet.

yes, that was true back then, however, it was not true here, I came here just wanting to discuss dialectic because I am writing a book about the whole thing and was hoping to have some enlightening discourse.

Bubblefish was a 'show' staged to discuss OS 012 and world peace,yes, this is true. I did not stage a show here, until you sir, most passionatly, engaged me in discussion, and , well, i guess old habits die hard and I could not resist!

( you really have no sense of humor, by the way, much of the humor goes over your head)

Moonrat’s cult is more properly referred to as “OS 012,”

please refer to above, and stop calling it a cult, it is an unfair, untrue, and deceptive trick that you are doing and it won't serve you i n this discussion.

which I have gathered to mean some kind of new software for one’s brain, whatever that is.

that part was kind of like a joke. there is a lot of humor inside of OS 012, and you miss some of it. O.S. stands for open source, but it also is a twist of off Operating System, or Objective, Subjective.

THis idea is open source, which means through the process of discussion, the most effective ideas get added to it..

the website that is up now is in BETA mode, and to be honest, I am a bit embarrassed over the presentation, the new site should be up and running soon. THe flamboyance of the site was intentional, but also inneffective and a poor idea I see now, so please forgive the presentation..

This is the “global dialectic” he/she keeps spouting about as if he is continuing some noble Greek tradition. But enough build up. From what I have found there are two supposed version of OS12 and they are “user” and “basic” though I don’t know what any of that poppycock means but let’s take a look at what the mind of Moonrat has in store for us in Basic.

it's just marketing man, playing off of computer terminology. there is also OS 012 extensions, which is where ideas are added...

“Begin here: O = mystery. 1 = true. 2 = false. “ Ok …

I’ll save some trouble, the first few paragraphs are just about that memetic garbage anyway carrying on.

I don't think it is fair of you to say 'memetic garbage', that is just another uncouth way of saying you think those ideas are FALSE without giving the reader a chance to decide for themselves and with you not giving any rebuttal in return.

All ideas, by simple observation, can either be true, or false, or mystery. The 'memetic garbage' that you stated was only saying that all ideas spread, and spread throughout history, and ideas are the seed of all action and creation in civilisation.

In Memetics, many notice that ideas seem to behave similar to genes or, more poetically, the laws of nature. So what we can understand about the laws of nature, we can understand about our ideas...

that's it, now, is that all false? please explain.

“Ideas are the seed of ALL action {Ideas are nouns that are the potential of verbs}” Well, as profound as that is …

“ALL IDEAS CONFLICT. [This is the very nature of the universe itself]” … uh huh … wow …

“All ideas [in conflict] seem to be one or the other. Good/Bad. Right/Wrong. Male/Female. This/That. Light/Dark. Strong/Weak. Yin/Yang. Me/You. Us/Them. Oppo/site. “

I wonder if Moonrat/Bubblesfish knows what a false-dichotomy is?

why don't you tell me? and if I do or I dont, or if you do or dont, does that negate this idea? please explain how.

are you saying that ideas do not conflict? that is not nature? is everything not conflicting?

do you see how even you have spread the idea of OS 012 far better than me on this board? is OS 012, as an idea, not spreading through you? you are proving and are a case in point.

All ideas can also be true or they can also be false [This is an important thing to observe]” I almost lost my lunch to this one, what a laugh this guy, he was talking about humor, wow. Despite being barely intelligible this is absurd.

“[OS 012 can either be true, or it can be false, right?]” Well that’s right, if it were meaningful.

you do not understand where that was leading? for example, based on your reaction, you think OS 012 is 'absurd' well, absurd is this regard is another way of saying you think OS 012 is false, so you answered the question asked perfectly. OS 012 can either be true, or false, right? (it is a trick question, in case you did not notice. OS 012 is either BS 012, or it is true, or, until you know for certainty, it is mystery. you seem to have already made up your mind, never bother to explore the mystery, tsk tsk, sloppy science!)

“A ‘King’ idea is what we all bring into the conversation. However, if we are to agree, there can only be one true ‘King’. Therefore, discussion becomes an art and a game of strategy, for one of us has to lose a ‘false’ idea that we believe to be true. When we lose a false idea or a false king that we have, we only have lost by winning a new and better idea or King that will serve us better.Both sides come to the table with a different King, but leave with the same one. Both sides then can both win in every discussion. Both sides leave in synergy.
King against King!
{By letting them fight, we learn that when one of them wins, it does so only because it serves BOTH SIDES better. King ideas fight to make BOTH SIDES WIN} “

Wow, I don’t know if this is idealistic gibberish or if it is completely unintelligible maddening nonsense.

perhaps you don't understand the meaning yet and need to ask questions? Just like I need to ask questions about symbolic logic to understand. you don't ask 'how did you come to that conclusion' or, what does that mean? you just call it 'gibberish' which is another way of saying 'false', which means OS 012 is working on your alredy and you are being led down a path that you are creating.

look, nico, I am not a scholar, I am an artist and writer, so I approach things from different angles than you do, however, I can still explain something...

It is my hope that we both come to understand the superior position, which is both art and science working together in understanding.

“ON GUARD!” Yes …

“OS 012 is an ©I-dea whose time has come. ©OS 012 is a collection of IDEAS that have been hard won in the field of ‘battle’. [Ideas that have been fought and discussed for thousands of years] Through these battles, OS 012 has had and will have many more contributors.
[OS 012 is created through internet discussion] ©OS 012 BASIC has been formulated by many people. Many of them may never even meet. “

blah blah blah. Other than some anti-war tirade I couldn’t find anything of substance in OS12.

well, then maybe that is so, however, that does not make OS 012 false, or not a global dialectic, which is what it is, by the way. so dialectic is not your thing, big deal. or, you don't understand it yet, but that does not make OS 012 false...

right now you are just being a politician, trying again to define something with a negative spin to negate the ideas...opinion does not overcome objective observations, sorry, not matter how adept you are at symbolic logic.


this is not abot OS 012 vs symbolic logic, at least not on my end. One of the contributors to OS 012, a computer mathematician, told me a year ago to get this translated into symbolic logic for peer review. I will do this soon, maybe you will help do this?

 

[Moonrat]

“OS 012 is a simple way to understand the true nature of all our ideas and words that we think or speak, privatly or openly.”

People, tell me this doesn’t sound like a cult.

how does that sound like a cult? a cult is a group of two or more who are contained inside of system of belief, ritual, or worship. OS 012 is only an objective system to place ideas, it is not even a path or way of life..

you sound scared of OS 012...

you make some funny commentary, but you still have not provided anything objective about where OS 012 is false or misleading, or erroneous...

why not?

“These are the only categories your mind can ever understand. All ideas and thoughts and words and memes are either true or false or mystery.”
False dichotomy.

how is that a false dichotomy? what other categories of information in the mind can their be other than true, false, or mystery? please explain.

“The 0, the 1, and the 2 That’s all there is to it. Smile. That is OS 012 BASIC “ What is L. Ron. Hubbard going to jump out of the cubbard now?

you know, again you need to equate OS 012 with scientology or some cult, and that is absurd, unfair, disrespectful, false, and misleading. It is an open source idea posted on a website that has spread word of mouth all over the world, without any email campaigns or anything of the sort. It is free of charge and in the public domain.

how is it that you need to create a false image of OS 012 for it to be false? either the ideas are BS or they are not, simple. you sound like a college kid arguing over grunge bands. come on, Nico, you can do better than that. I depend upon you to do better than that.

“When you can understand how to operate this as an effective tool, you will always be able to tell when others are lying. You will always be able to see when others may be hiding. You will win in every conversation and discussion all the time. You will become a master in communications and negotiations in ways that may utterly astound you.”

And we will have mind-meld session and Commander Spock will … yeah.

sorry, not so esoteric or sci-fi, just simple. OS 012 is a dialectic to apply on the internet through written discussion. when discussion is in written form, yes, irrational ideas are easily exposed because the environment for the discussion is a rational one..I will explain more of this if you wish, and already I have shown where you are using deception inside of the discussion in your commentaries about OS 012..

“False information never works inside of math and science.” Well, that’s just wrong with respect to science. I don’t know what you mean by “work” but it doesn’t sound like you know much about science or the history of science. Well, if you have been following along you have seen there is nothing of substance here, let’s “install” and see what we get.

this is a way of saying that if you have 2+2=5 in your equation somewhere, your ending result will not work effectivly because it contains false information believed to be true...

this is in error? science works when the information is false thought to be true? really? give an example, please.

“Mystery can never be defined.Yet it is always right above and behind you. TURN AROUND! QUICK!“
Despite being absurd you do not fail to be completely insane. Amazing.

I am sorry that you are disturbed by creative expression. But OS 012 uses a very conservative explanation and usage of certainty, which is, well, we don't know what anything looks like for certain unless we are looking at it. If that spooks you, I am sorry, I hope this explanation soothes your concerns.

“There is always a factor infinite and unknown. This is 0. “

You should ask for your money back from whoever taught you math, if anyone ever did.

This is how '0' is defined inside of OS 012, it is not a definition of how 0 is applied in mathematics.

0 represents all information that is beyond our senses or current understanding. when we cannot tell the true from the false...

what is insane about that? can you explain rationaly?

 

[Moonrat]

“OS 012 IDENTIFY:POLITICIAN://.read.below. When.people.deceive.themselves.and others.they.become.‘politicians’.”
I see, that’s why you keep calling me that it’s the vernacular of your cult. Well whatever. If you are following, I didn’t post it, but there is an interesting discourse about how 2=1 or some deceptive nonsense or something or other, blah blah blah. Do check it out everyone it is very interesting, in the way that you stare at the crazy man pillaging through the garbage dumpster.

again, a term with a certain asciption inside of the dialectic. we use the metaphor of the politician, one who uses deception to bend those to their will. OS 012, as a dialectic, employs brutal honesty inside of discussion. Like I am being honest, and must, when I say I have much ignorance of symbolic logic and wish to learn more.

I am challenging YOU know to back up your accusations and bring a more scientific and objective viewpoint into this discusion. as for everyone else, they can decide for themselves which is BS and which is not..

“You have completed a full install.” um … Ok.

“[Resistance is futile]” Alrighty. (another checkmark) … “OS 012 High Intelligence Productions, all RITES REVERSED.” Not a cult? You sure?

those are called 'jokes'. and these jokes serve a purpose. those that get OS 012 get the joke and the laugh. those that have false ideas about OS 012 get riled up over them as 'evidence' of their own illusions...it works, case in point.

also, all rites reversed is not in OS 012, just a note at the bottom of the website. I spelled 'rites' wrong when I did that, and have not changed it because it also gets people a little riled up too...

OS 012 is written is a certain presentation that is designed to press peoples buttons, case in point. you are a perfect example of how ideas conflict and spread. you are proving OS 012 effectivness, at least to me, by your actions..

Well that was interesting. You sir are a madman. Let’s see what some others have had to say about Moonrat/Bubblefish, don’t just take my word for it.
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cach...4463&goto=nextnewest+"OS+012"+dialectic&hl=en
A forum member of Philosophyforums.com writes:

hehe, o my god, you really are all riled up arnt you? for every one irrational reaction to OS 012, I will show you three rational ones in return.


also, I am not the only bubblefish on the internet, by the way. sure, some people think it's crazy, but when they are confronted with how they come to their conclusions, they only expose their own irrationality in return.

I also set myself up to be attacked, that is the point. (you fell for it a bit, too, but I also have to eat some crow because you were righ in some regards in our previous discussion and I was wrong)

It was a philosophy professor who wrote me and said that OS 012 was a 'rational dialectic'. I can copy many praises of OS 012 from others on the net...now the question is, who is right about OS 012?

what else do you have?

I couldn’t agree more. Also, take note that Bubblefish was banned from the philosophy forums, gee I wonder why? And yes Bubblefish and Moonrat are the same entity/thing whatever.

Even the George Carlin forum people think Moonrat is crazy, and that is an accomplishment. See here.

I don't recalled being banned from a philosophy forum, maybe that was another bubblefish? or maybe I was, I don't remember. I do know that OS 012 was banned from discussion in a number of forums, it seems to get people riled up and have knee jerk reactions. I have also been invited to discuss on many forums too...

hehe, if you think the George Carlin crowd, a group who discuss fart jokes and video games has any bearing, well, go for it!

OS 012 was discussed there as a way to show how a discussion can continue with those when they are being irrational. I controlled that disussion for two months, had fun and told jokes...

you don't seem to get jokes.

What did that one person say “you are some spaced out mf’ers” or something to that effect? Yep.

Apparently the George Carlin don’t think much of your recruitment tactics. More.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7y6bauXWFxgJ:occultforums.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D9830%26view%3Dprevious+site:[url

wow, you have searched the net huh? I am not the only person who discusses OS 012 on the net. I take responsibility for the five discussions on the website and nothing more...

also, you need to read the threads to see what happened. You are finding one or two things that fit your image and your are disregarding the rest..

I staged OS 012 discussions in many different cultural backgrounds and enviroments to see different reactions from different points of view. I did this with Muslims, objectivists, the deoxy underground crowd, x-files type people, all kinds of different groups all over the world. This was like a testing ground...

Well there is much more I could post but I am bored and I think this is sufficient. Honestly, Moonrat/Babblefish/whatever you are a madman and I will not continue any discourse with you as I do not converse with madmen. You can think of this however you want. As well I know you will say I am trying to “define” you or something but you have defined yourself, I am more like “reporter.” Have fun with your cult.
*Nico

sorry, Nico, you started it. and now you have also started an OS 012 discussion and said many false and deceptive things...


I will close to say that OS 012 is a work in progress, an attempt to create a dialectic where we all can come to greater understanding of the variety of ideas that conflict in this world to come to greater understanding and world peace.

if you think I am crazy for wanting world peace, then I am crazy. i am joined by such illuminous crazy people as Buckminster Fuller, Martin Luther King, ALbert Einstien, John Lennon, Nelson Mandela, and millions of unknown people working for such a cause.

I did not ask to be in this position, it came to me. There is much development for OS 012, and I have made many mistakes in it's presentation. I was very intimidated in the beginning because I am not a scholar, rather, an artist, and who am I to discuss such things? I have had much encouragement from some very brilliant minds, and know full well my own faults and mistakes. I use art to present OS 012, but OS 012 is based on very sound rational princaples, which you have not refuted rationaly

Nico, you also failed to mention that main crux of OS 012, which is 'all problems are solved effectivly when all sides win' OS 012 creates co-ordinates for an all sides win foriegn policy and looks to the internet to create this through the conflict of idea.

Thank you, Nico, for bringing OS 012 to this community far better than I ever could..

Bubblefish

 

[Moonrat]

Here are some positive remarks about OS 012

*Brilliant. This could potentially be the most valuable site on the internet.


*OS 012 is fiendishly clever, It also resembles all those wild, legendary mathematical works like Euclid's Elements, Spinoza's Ethics, Wittgenstein's Tractatus, and John von Neumann's The Computer and the Brain--they all have a degree of quasi-mathematical structure--axiom, proposition, etc. Very nice to the brain, like sipping an excellent cognac on the tongue.

*Truth is One, the wise call It by many names - The Rig Veda, AKA OS 012

*Thank you so very much for making me aware of OS 012! I have so far only read it just once, but the implications of using it are already getting clear to me. Thank you!

*This is very profound! for me, i find some reassurance in the line from the OS 012 explanation: "rational thought is only honest thought." If rational is anything it is honest, no?! thank you much for sharing this.

*The first time I read it, I understood what was being said, but my mind would not accept it. I got caught in a mental loop. I would attack OS 012, and fail (or so I thought ). This "failure" just strengthened OS 012 in my mind, aggravating me further and causing me to attack it again. This went on for hours, and then after reading it again it clicked. I won. I had all the information in my head already, I just wasn't using OS 012.

*I can assure you OS-012 is being read in Israel also, By the way, if you need a Hebrew translation just give me a word

Now, does this make OS 012 true? of course not. just like the few negative responsed Nico focused on do not make OS 012 false.

OS 012 can only be proven to be true, or false, for certain, by the individual. There is something to 'get' inside of OS 012, and when you get it, you also get the joke.

when you 'get it' well, it kind of jumps out at you like those 3D picture you have to stare at. OS 012 is a specific perspective that only you can teach yourself. The discussions are staged to instigate and assist in this process, and that is the role that I played. Just like the Phil Hendry show, many people have immediate knee jerk reactions, and I play off of this. I also have knee jerk reactions, as many of you can see in my discussions with Nico about 'truth'

These knee jerk reactions do not serve any of us inside of rational discussion, and many times are the root of much conflict..


when you get OS 012, or integrate it to a high level, one can have a hieghend state of awareness. This has happened with many all over the world..

I have downloaded OSwhatwasitsnameagain. It's running on my system and I'm checking out it's features.

And let me tell you, I'm excited!

OSIkickyourbuttandblowyourmind is an Operating System for the mind which makes use of its natural functioning.

And since last night, I suspect it's even more than that.

It made me laugh out loud and scared the **** out of me.

That is what happened to this person, as well as myself, as well as many others.

I hope that OS 012 can continue into discussion further here, and that many of you can add ideas to the OS , or, replace the older ones with more effective ones in it's place

If OS 012 is not what it claims to be, then let's make it such!

and again, please forgive the current presentation, for this I have made many errors, used humor which goes a little over people's heads. A more dignified presentation of OS 012 is in the works.

 

[Moonrat]

I'm sorry, this is where my personality comes in a bit too much too. but I only need Nico's words to defend his attacks against me trying to prove OS 012 as hogwash.

Qouted by Nico, on another thread...

Well ideally philosophy would be accessible to most any educated individual but yes it does indeed require introspection and various other traits. Those who have been considered the greatest philosophers have historically been known as eccentric if not hermits. Kierkegaard was crazy. Kant was a recluse. Hegel, was just out there. Marx was belligerant. The list goes on.
*Nico

yes indeed it does...

 

[Moonrat]

This is the background of OS 012

Two specters haunt the next (21st) century. One is the secularism, nationalism, and ethnocentricity, the psychological apartheid that is paradoxically erupting as the world moves toward a single consumer culture. The other is the very real possibility of the extinction of the human race... Overpopulation, deforestation, the nuclear weapons that are still very much with us, the rotting canisters of plutonium on the ocean floor - I hardly need recite the list...

A revolution against these demons would require the kind of Internationale that Marx dreamed of, and Communism never saw -- a rising of the humans of the world. It would depend on a transition to a global economy that is simultaneous to a dismantling of the multinational corporations. And it must begin with us talking to each other -- more important, listening to each other -- in ways that have never occurred before. Significantly, with the new information technology, the means are there -- as long as we are able to keep those means democratic, and out of monopolistic control, which won't be easy. The new generation of revolutionaries will not begin as a ragged band in the Sierras -- it will be individuals and small groups thousands of miles from each other and neighbors in cyberspace.


-Poet Elliot Weinberger
It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question.
-Eugene Ionesc

I have an expectation that one or two brilliant minds here will understand the implications of this process, and how internet discussion is a radical novelty occurring in the global synthesis of idea via's Hegel's model of history.

Such global complexity that technologies have brought us occurring in our lifetime requires new models, philosophies, perspectives. All points of the view of the past are now made irrelevant by the many sided globally connected world community. In this 21 century, the most powerful force is global public opinion, we can see how much influence it has had in current events with the War in Iraq. Even terrorism and 911 show how powerful the global individual is on the world political scene.


No one in the past predicted or could have predicted the internet. the internet will eventualy collapse world governments and replace it with a open source administrative system run by global citizens via computer.

This process has already begun, and this is not a far out there idea, or a theory, or a hope, but an objective observation, and requires intelligent discourse.

Surely Nico can't be the best this community has to offer?


:uhh:

 

[Moonrat]

OK, even though no one seems to want to engage in discussion about a global dialectic employing ternary co-ordinates on a philosophy forum (odd, I also suggest), this thread does seem to have a readership of close to 100. So those who are interested, but too afraid to say anything (again, odd), there is a more dignified beta site for OS 012, the global dialectic...



OS 012 Homepage

also, OS 012 has been picked up in Germany, there are calling it 'trinary dialectic' over there. Here is the German site if you can read German ( I wish I could)
German OS 012 Site

 

[pocebokli]

just try to summarize and put it on 1 page? I'm sure you'd be surprised at level of participation...

 

[Moonrat]

just try to summarize and put it on 1 page? I'm sure you'd be surprised at level of participation...

thank you for the advice. I will start anew and see what happens. I mean, this is a philosophy forum, and this is a global dialectic (first one of it's kind that I know of) and it needs the intelligence here to spread and upgrade, plus, it's fun...


ok..I try one more time

thank you


Moonrat