Is Physics the Ultimate Authority?

[Wishbone]

To me physics is nothing but descriptions or, models to observed events. So what tells us that things must obey these descriptions, is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

 

[octelcogopod]

Science/physics is about finding out how these events occur, and why, so far we have been successful in this trial and error approach.
For instance there's no indication that a tractor weighs less than a golf ball, but it might be, sure?

Nothing is ever 100% solid proof either, imo, so physics is just about finding out the probability of repetition based on a collection of events.
After a period of time the events happen exactly as predicted, thousands, even billions of times, and at that point the probability is so little for anything else to happen that we ignore it.

 

[Rade]

...is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

We break scientific "laws" often, laws can change. Newton's "law of gravity" has been modified under conditions in a vacuum, then also Einstein changed our conception of gravity laws. Even legal "laws" change.

 

[franznietzsche]

To me physics is nothing but descriptions or, models to observed events. So what tells us that things must obey these descriptions, is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

Well you can go ahead and try to violate the 'law of gravity', but you'll be in for a rude awakening after jumping out of the plane without a parachute when you find that in fact, gravity is quite real.

The logic telling us that you can't violate the 'laws of physics' is inductive. Everything we observe follows certain rules. It stands to reason then that those things we don't observe follow the same rules, even though we're not watching.

 

[Wishbone]

Well you can go ahead and try to violate the 'law of gravity', but you'll be in for a rude awakening after jumping out of the plane without a parachute when you find that in fact, gravity is quite real.
The logic telling us that you can't violate the 'laws of physics' is inductive. Everything we observe follows certain rules. It stands to reason then that those things we don't observe follow the same rules, even though we're not watching.

That sounds like what I said, but loosley using the word rules. I am not saying that I know how to break the laws of physics, but I don't buy the idea that everything we observe follows RULES. They follow descriptions we write down as mathematical equations. Simply put, we can't say that the laws of physics cannot be broken simply because we do not know of anyone or anything breaking them...

 

[emrandel]

To me physics is nothing but descriptions or, models to observed events. So what tells us that things must obey these descriptions, is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

Rephrase: Physics are the laws/restrictions that apply to the individual that ALLOWS these laws to apply to him/her sub-consciously. One most delve into the subconsciousrelm to correct their embedded stereo-types and go beyond the laws of physics. It requires a strength of will not common in the average individual. So, like all other rules, they do not apply to exceptions.

 

[Wishbone]

See I disagree, I am simply saying in the everyday observable universe, there is absolutley nothing, that stops us from breaking the laws of physics. Simply because the laws of physics say nothing about their own validity. They are simply observations that are written down in mathematical form. They always do work out, and we really haven't proved that we see something breaking the descriptions of physics, but that does not take away the fact they are not absolute rules.

 

[emrandel]

See I disagree, I am simply saying in the everyday observable universe, there is absolutley nothing, that stops us from breaking the laws of physics. Simply because the laws of physics say nothing about their own validity. They are simply observations that are written down in mathematical form. *** They always do work out, and we really haven't proved that we see something breaking the descriptions of physics, but that does not take away the fact they are not absolute rules.

There in the part of the quote where there you see the "***" you flip-flop. If you were to divide both those sections into two different point-of-views they would both be valid, yet you contradict yourself? Maybe a mere typo, it's hard to say. Ignoring this descrepancy, well said.

 

[neurocomp2003]

ar eyou talking about current laws of physics...or the concept of "laws of physics"(or rather the mechanics of the universe)?

No we don't really have to obey current laws of physics..and if you can show us that you can disobey them then you should tell academia.

but there are underlying universal fundamental principles or characteristics that i think anything that exists in this universe would obey at some low scale. FOr example x=vt; I think would be a universal quantity.

 

[Wishbone]

There in the part of the quote where there you see the "***" you flip-flop. If you were to divide both those sections into two different point-of-views they would both be valid, yet you contradict yourself? Maybe a mere typo, it's hard to say. Ignoring this descrepancy, well said.

No, that is not a flip flop, I believe it is from a misundertanding of the word "rules". I am simply saying that the fact that descriptions have stayed valid in our observations, isn't enough to call them rules.

 

[Pengwuino]

See I disagree, I am simply saying in the everyday observable universe, there is absolutley nothing, that stops us from breaking the laws of physics. Simply because the laws of physics say nothing about their own validity. They are simply observations that are written down in mathematical form. They always do work out, and we really haven't proved that we see something breaking the descriptions of physics, but that does not take away the fact they are not absolute rules.

So do you have any proof of this? Any reason why? Have you seen people fall up lately?

 

[Wishbone]

and that proves they are ubreakable?

 

[Pengwuino]

and that proves they are ubreakable?

The burden of proof is on you. Prove they are breakable.

 

[sameandnot]

i see em fall up when I am doing my daily head stands :)

 

[Pengwuino]

Why would you include a headstand as part of your daily routine?

 

[sameandnot]

great rush of blood to the brain is great for clarity of thought. it's like booze to the drunkard (blood to the brain, that is)

 

[sameandnot]

ok, i don't have a daily routine... of excercise, at least. but i guess i still get a decent head-rush from hanging out with you cats everyday. usually, while I am working.

(headstands really are good for that, though.)

 

[Wishbone]

The burden of proof is on you. Prove they are breakable.

no my not being able to break them proves I do not know how to break them, not that they are unbreakable.

 

[Pengwuino]

no my not being able to break them proves I do not know how to break them, not that they are unbreakable.

You must figure out a reason as to WHY they CAN be broken that isn't based upon simple opinion.

 

[Wishbone]

You must figure out a reason as to WHY they CAN be broken that isn't based upon simple opinion.

I have stated such reasons.

 

[Pengwuino]

I have stated such reasons.

No you didn't, you stated opinion and asked proof of a negative which is logically impossible. You must prove they are breakable.

 

[Wishbone]

wrong I stated the facts about the nature of the physics, which gives reason that they are not LAWS. Once, again, I never said I could break them.

 

[vanesch]

I think that the question is not whether we can break the laws of physics, but whether there EXIST fundamental laws of physics, in the sense that there exists a mathematical structure that describes perfectly the entire universe.
If that structure exists (for sure, we don't know it yet), then that structure IS "the law of physics" and of course you cannot break it, because breaking it would mean that, after all, the universe is NOT described by that structure (it didn't perfectly describe what you did) and as such, it was NOT the fundamental "law of physics".
Nobody knows whether such a structure exists, but it is the working hypothesis of physics that it does ; the relative success of current physics makes this hypothesis quite plausible.

 

[*melinda*]

So what tells us that things must obey these descriptions, is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

There is nothing that tells us 'things must obey these descriptions' absolutely every single time. This is the big difference between science and other explanations (ie religion) for the state of the world around us. Scientific theories must be falsifiable. When we observe something which appears to violate the laws of physics, we test to see if the violation is repeatable. If it is, then we recognize that our laws provide an incomplete description of some event, so we modify our laws.

 

[Sikz]

The point of the original poster is that a "description" is not a "law". While we may find scientific, mathematical descriptions that fit all the observable data, there is no logical reason that one should be constrained to continue to fit the predictions of the descriptoins; what we call "laws" are simply descriptions that have described correctly every time we know of.

The fact that everyone, with exceptions that can be ascribed to contingencies in the environment (alternatively, we could simply ignore them completely for this analogy), eats cereal for breakfast is just a description; even if it happens every time we observe it, even if it will KEEP happening every time we observe it, it remains simply a description of what happens. There is no law that demands that people eat cereal.

Without a mechanism for laws to be enforced upon the cosmos (which seems hard to imagine, seeing as how the mechanism would have to be described and have to fall under its own laws), all we have are descriptions. The original poster's argument is that "Because the 'laws of physics' are only descriptions and, indeed, we have no evidence that anything actively enforces them, there is no real reason for it to be impossible to break them."


And vanesch, your argument seems to sidestep this through its definition. It doesn't need a mechanism for enforcement because if there is a perfect description, by definition it always holds, enforced or not. However, science being inductive, there is no way to ever know if a description is, in something like the platonic sense of concepts, a perfect description--even if it holds every time, we can't know that it is BY DEFINITION perfect and not just coincidentally perfect (for even if it holds perfectly from the beginning of time to the end of time, it could still be only coincidentally perfect, like a law regarding breakfast habits, and could have HYPOTHETICALLY been broken at any time--and, since we don't know whether it will hold in the future, that translates to a potential to be broken in actual time).


EDIT: Additionally, negative proofs are not logically impossible (in a deductive argument, which can be established in physics if based on broad enough statements--this tends to be overlooked by those with a more inductive tendency, for in inductive logic it is indeed impossible... But then, in inductive logic it's impossible to prove anything, eh?). In order to claim that negative proofs are impossible you would need a logically incontravertable reason for this: A proof. A proof that there are no negative proofs would itself be a negative proof, hence it is impossible to substantiate the statement that there are no negative proofs.

 

[RVBuckeye]

Excellent cereal analogy Sikz. Certainly it is possible there are exceptions to the "laws". Can Uri Gellar really bend spoons with his mind? Did Jesus walk on water? If true, that clearly defys the laws of physics. I, for one, can't say for sure, I didn't see it. I'm still open to the possibility even though.

 

[magus niche]

because i believe the imagination is an integrated part of objective reality, in this model gravity can be broken as soon as you go to sleep. if you want to be a little more conscious of the reality then get into meditation. if you want to be even more conscious, then get into 'out of body' travel or non physical states of being. all with as much literary backup, word of mouth stories, and personal feelings of knowledge, as the physical scientists' documentation and proof.

of course these 'unexplainable' things which always get hyped up to the point of absurdity by the media etc., usually get disregarded as mumbo jumbo and slip by most mainsteam cultures around the world. just as scientific knowledge is usually not common knowledge either. So it's appropriate that i now mention the idea of 'belief' as playing a huge role in the 'what is real; are there eternal truths/laws?' question.

but never fear, there are many techniques of breaking down ones critical mind and experiencing nature on a 'magickal' level, and supranatural occurances are something very subjective (but also manifest as objective because you are part of the objective universe and what happens to a single subject is still as real as anything else).

what i mean is there are 'natural laws' but i believe that although they are more stable than a subjective belief, they are far more malleable and chaotic/enigmatic than what is simply 'observable' on the surface. its about finding ways of playing with the reality. just muck around with it, experiment a little. see what one can experience in both the external and internal worlds. listen or do not listen. think or don't think. act or do not act. read this rant or don't read it. expell the post or do not. just kidding all you authorities out there you know I'm just providing a little light heartedness to it all..

what is inside? which very well may be represented as codes, laws, programs, knowledge, beliefs, mind, (sub)consciousness, truth, absence, or indeed none of these things, or all of these things, or some of these things?

: do not obey! work rest and play*!

cheers for the cool topic.

*note: play being the (de)constructive synthesis of work and rest, and i recommend transmuting life into playing the game that is not necessarily competitive. for more information check situationist theory, and practical magick and zen and dada and surrealism etc.

know nonsense.

 

[metrictensor]

To me physics is nothing but descriptions or, models to observed events. So what tells us that things must obey these descriptions, is there any logic that tells us that a event disobeying these "laws" cannot exist?

There is nothing obeying anything. We attempt to draw a certain level of abstraction based upon observations and call these patterns laws.

 

[Agent C.I]

The laws and observations of everything start with the brain and how the brain interprets physical stimuli (meaning everything which exists in the known universe and unknown), your natural understanding of the laws of physics are leveled by the interpretation of data in your brain. In essence the bio-electric pulses which are sent to the brain to interpret what is happening around you (hence the laws of physics)...

now it is known that certain "retarded" people can actually deify the natural laws around them...for instances there was a retarded person who could actually clime up and down walls, his brain wasn’t able to comprehend he wasn’t able to accomplish this, so that limitation didn’t exist for him and through the way his brain interpreted the situation, he was able to defy the law of gravity...thus allowing him to walk up and down walls and ceilings...

Everything starts in the brain. How a physical stimulus is interpreted through natural means affects many factors in this universe.
That’s something to think about...

 

[|Orion's Thought|]

Well, in that case, I don't see why, if we all believed so, we could fly or jump really high or etc., or do you think its that hard to let go of what we think we know to be true? Is it harder to learn or unlearn something?

The logic telling us that you can't violate the 'laws of physics' is inductive. Everything we observe follows certain rules. It stands to reason then that those things we don't observe follow the same rules, even though we're not watching.

Is this like- if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, did it make a sound?

 

[Agent C.I]

To Orion

Once the brain learns something and accepts it as a fact, it is extremely difficult for you to unlearn and reinterpret what is happening.

Given a simple example
If u would ask any given human to identify the color blue, they would all mostly say yes I see that color is it called blue.

The brain is seeing blue because of sub-atomic particles which make up a certain specific pattern which creates this certain pattern of light which the brain has been thought to identify as the color blue.

however if we ask let's say someone that we call "color blind" to identify the same color he/she will call it a totally different color, he might call it RED, why ? ...is that person really "color blind”? According to us he is...he’s not identifying the colors correctly, correct?

or is it simply because at some early age he wasn’t taught how to identify colors ?, the answer is we will never know the truth, simply because colors can't really be identified, there seems to be a law that says what colors are what...but where does that law really exist ?

In the mind? Or in the physical world?

u see the color blind person some where along the line his / her brain didn’t accept the normal way the majority of the people define colors, the brain incoherently assigned a different color pattern to sub-atomic structures reflecting transecting light into color.

And the book I would suggest reading.. To you is

Hypnosis - theory, practice and application
written by psychologist - Raphael H. Rhodes

this book gives detailed examples of how the use of hypnosis can be applied and HAS been applied for the use of altering known physical laws by alterations made directly on how the brain interoperates physical stimulus.

 

[RVBuckeye]

now it is known that certain "retarded" people can actually deify the natural laws around them...for instances there was a retarded person who could actually clime up and down walls, his brain wasn’t able to comprehend he wasn’t able to accomplish this, so that limitation didn’t exist for him and through the way his brain interpreted the situation, he was able to defy the law of gravity...thus allowing him to walk up and down walls and ceilings...

Where did you hear this? I can't believe anyone else hasn't asked this yet. Can you produce any evidence of this?

 

[loseyourname]

Okay, this has gone far enough.