Is street harassment of women just a rite of passage for some men?

[rootX]

Personally, I have never seen any case of street harassment of women, but I have always been in good parts of the cities.

Nearly 95 percent of female respondents were honked at one or more times and 40 percent said they are honked at as frequently as monthly. Nearly 94 percent of female respondents were the target of whistling at least once and nearly 38 percent said it occurred at least monthly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12771938Is this really a problem in North America or Europe? I know it can be really bad in other parts of world and those cultures don't encourage openly acting against the harassment issues like the article suggests and mostly considered a norm. Should this really be a social norm? Bullying has got lots of attention but I never recall women harassment getting that much attention or maybe there is no need to address this nonexistent issue.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Is this really a problem in North America or Europe?

Not until a woman gets to be about 40 or so, and the frequency drops disappointingly.

 

[DaveC426913]

Not until a woman gets to be about 40 or so, and the frequency drops disappointingly.

 

[nismaratwork]

Not until a woman gets to be about 40 or so, and the frequency drops disappointingly.

Funny, but sadly untrue...


I think it's a good argument to have an EMP weapon to shut down cars, or maybe curare darts...

 

[D H]

Not until a woman gets to be about 40 or so, and the frequency drops disappointingly.

Welcome to life in the slow lane, MIH. The days of "Card me, please!" have long passed me by.

In my younger days, I was endowed with what various girlfriends described as a "cute butt". Those younger days coincided with the peak of feminism. I was goosed, multiple times, riding the subway, walking to work, going to grad school, shopping, etc. I did not appreciate the goosing, but trading my 50+ year old rear end for that "cute butt" would be kinda nice.

 

[russ_watters]

Should this really be a social norm? Bullying has got lots of attention but I never recall women harassment getting that much attention or maybe there is no need to address this nonexistent issue.

So I guess the question is - is it really harassment or just a lame way of hitting on them?

 

[rootX]

I cannot a find a south American video in which a gang of boys was hooting/whistling/throwing cans at a girl passing by. I posted it here about 2 years ago or more. I was thinking of that video when I made this thread. Even worse, there are quite a few cases of subway groping in Japan. Those are bit extreme cases. Nonetheless, I am not sure if "lame way of hitting" should be considered a social norm.

Another blog article (the content might be questionable) about NYC:
http://inciteblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/street-harassment-of-women-and-girls-in-new-york-city/

 

[qspeechc]

Ok, those figures of "harassment" come from an online poll. I think the reality is that a far fewer percent of woman are "harassed" in this way, because frankly most women are un-attractive. But that's just my opinion.

And how can saying "hey gorgeous" be harassment? Can you take someone to court for that? Or whistling, jeering, hooting etc.? I agree it is dis-respectful, childish, repulsive and tasteless, but not harassment. Grabing a woman is harassment, however.

"It stems from a broader culture of gender based violence," says May.

Saying "hey gorgeous" "stems from a broader culture of gender based violence"? Guys should stop hitting on women in bars.

When a man shouts "hi gorgeous" or "come over here love", the recipient of the comments might be annoyed,

Annoyed indeed, not harassed.

And it's dangerous because it's difficult to distinguish which men simply shout and which ones may use catcalls as a gateway to violence or sexual aggression

That indeed is a problem.

"If a guy is checking out a woman it's annoying, but that's how sexual predators who are honing their craft test how far they can go," says activist and filmmaker Maggie Hadleigh-West.

I don't know what to say to this. Every guy checking out a girl is a sexual predator? Wow.

"Culturally, men have been indoctrinated into it, and it's been a privilege for them to walk down the street fantasising about women. The culture hasn't checked the behaviour."

Now they want to stop men fantasizing! Reminds me of Orwell's 1984.

We should of course take harrasment seriously, but when you add such rubbish to your argument, it just weakens your plea and sours it for me.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The other week I was out at a bar. While I was bending over to take a shot at the pool table a stranger tried pinching my butt. I stopped and gave her a "what the **** are you doing?" look and went about my business. I didn't have any contact with her beyond that for the rest of the night. Later I wound up shooting pool with a woman. She suddenly seemed very angry and upset and she told me that some guy had grabbed her butt. She was upset about it the rest of the night and wouldn't stop glaring at the guy who of course just laughed at her which made her more angry.

I found it an interesting contrast.

 

[alt]

Not until a woman gets to be about 40 or so, and the frequency drops disappointingly.

ROFLMAO ..

(But humor sometimes contains the greatest truth)

 

[russ_watters]

I cannot a find a south American video in which a gang of boys was hooting/whistling/throwing cans at a girl passing by. I posted it here about 2 years ago or more. I was thinking of that video when I made this thread. Even worse, there are quite a few cases of subway groping in Japan. Those are bit extreme cases. Nonetheless, I am not sure if "lame way of hitting" should be considered a social norm.

None of those examples were in your first post. Throwing things at someoneone or groping them is assault. Whistling is not. There's a huge difference.

 

[Sirocco]

Math Is Hard, I laughed heartily at your comment! That's certainly been my experience haha!


I have lived in various parts of the world, urban and rural, and have witnessed (been subjected to) this phenomena in different ways. Frankly, I was never bothered by a little hooting and whistling, and in my younger days, took it as an ego boost. Sure, these men were hooting and whistling at every pair of boobs that walked down the street, but it still felt nice to get a little attention. Ah, vanity!

I found that the bigger the crowd, the more outrageous the behavior got. Guys who, on their own, would just give a passing beauty a quiet onceover, get around their pals and now their practicing their screechy "heeeeeeey chickeeeeeeee baaaaayyyyybbeeeeee" mating calls. Take that group of guys and put them in a crowded situation: bar on Saturday night, street fair, packed subway car, mosh pit, whatever, and even WITHOUT alcohol added, at least ONE of the group is going to become a grabber.

Unfortunately, dirty looks don't dissuade grabbers, usually. Public humiliation, and perhaps a judiciously applied ball twist, does. A gal's got to be careful, though, and judge the quality of the situation first, though. Some situations feel more...dangerous, is the best way to describe it, and at that point making fun of a guy or leaving him gasping for breath could bring things from the ***-grabbing stage to the "I'm/we're going to beat you/rape you" stage. Sound extreme? Yes, but as others have mentioned, men who grab women may be harboring violent attitudes towards them, and only need a spark to ignite a blaze of rage.

Of course, even if the grabber in question simply backs down, in today's litigious society you might find yourself slapped with a slander suit for impugning his manhood, or, in the case of the ball twist, a sexual assault charge! Never mind who started it.

So, maybe in today's world, women should just suffice with a dirty look.

A dirty shame, if you ask me.

 

[DaveC426913]

I have lived in various parts of the world, urban and rural, and have witnessed (been subjected to) this phenomena in different ways. Frankly, I was never bothered by a little hooting and whistling, and in my younger days, took it as an ego boost. Sure, these men were hooting and whistling at every pair of boobs that walked down the street, but it still felt nice to get a little attention. Ah, vanity!

I found that the bigger the crowd, the more outrageous the behavior got. Guys who, on their own, would just give a passing beauty a quiet onceover, get around their pals and now their practicing their screechy "heeeeeeey chickeeeeeeee baaaaayyyyybbeeeeee" mating calls.

I don't get a lot of whistling or mating calls flung my way, so

It seems to me there's a threshold between 'I think you're kind of cute' and 'I'm going to say things until I get a reaction'. A whistle could fall into the former, but a "heeeeeeey chickeeeeeeee baaaaayyyyybbeeeeee" mating call is definitely into the latter.

Or am I birfurcating bunnies?

 

[rootX]

None of those examples were in your first post. Throwing things at someoneone or groping them is assault. Whistling is not. There's a huge difference.

Groping is mentioned in the article:

Public sexual harassment known as "eve teasing" in India
In the US, Reclaim the Night campaign started in the 1970s with marches against sexual violence and pornography
In Japan, groping on the subway has been a problem for many years
Mass sexual assault on reporter Lara Logan and other incidents highlighted issue in Egypt

You are right that those are assault cases. Whistling is not an assault but the article seems to be combining things like whistling along with other kinds of serious things like groping.

 

[DaveC426913]

Groping is mentioned in the article:


You are right that those are assault cases. Whistling is not an assault but the article seems to be combining things like whistling along with other kinds of serious things like groping.

I guess the trouble is that it is an extremely slippery slope. So slippery that there really is no static friction on that slope, only dynamic friction.

 

[Femme_physics]

It's guys giving us attention. I can't imagine how it can cross to feeling uncomfortable!

Personally, I love the attention. Whether I'm honked at or stared at (I don't recall whistling...but maybe that too). I won't react, but I'm very aware of it. Well, I might secretly smile, but I won't react. Sometimes people on the street will just approach with a nice compliment, to that I react but keeping it short and to the point. Sometimes they will try to draw me into a conversation, I also try to keep it short and to the point. I'm not bothered by that at all. In fact, it makes me feel wanted. Who doesn't like feeling wanted? *shrugs*

 

[Alfi]

Math Is Hard, I laughed heartily at your comment! That's certainly been my experience haha!I have lived in various parts of the world, urban and rural, and have witnessed (been subjected to) this phenomena in different ways. Frankly, I was never bothered by a little hooting and whistling, and in my younger days, took it as an ego boost. Sure, these men were hooting and whistling at every pair of boobs that walked down the street, but it still felt nice to get a little attention. Ah, vanity!

I found that the bigger the crowd, the more outrageous the behavior got. Guys who, on their own, would just give a passing beauty a quiet onceover, get around their pals and now their practicing their screechy "heeeeeeey chickeeeeeeee baaaaayyyyybbeeeeee" mating calls. Take that group of guys and put them in a crowded situation: bar on Saturday night, street fair, packed subway car, mosh pit, whatever, and even WITHOUT alcohol added, at least ONE of the group is going to become a grabber.

Unfortunately, dirty looks don't dissuade grabbers, usually. Public humiliation, and perhaps a judiciously applied ball twist, does. A gal's got to be careful, though, and judge the quality of the situation first, though. Some situations feel more...dangerous, is the best way to describe it, and at that point making fun of a guy or leaving him gasping for breath could bring things from the ***-grabbing stage to the "I'm/we're going to beat you/rape you" stage. Sound extreme? Yes, but as others have mentioned, men who grab women may be harboring violent attitudes towards them, and only need a spark to ignite a blaze of rage.

Of course, even if the grabber in question simply backs down, in today's litigious society you might find yourself slapped with a slander suit for impugning his manhood, or, in the case of the ball twist, a sexual assault charge! Never mind who started it.

So, maybe in today's world, women should just suffice with a dirty look.

A dirty shame, if you ask me.

damn! ... that's some good city 'street smarts' stuff. I tried to teach my daughter that kind of heads up thinking. It may have worked. She tells me she defended herself a couple of times in her early twenties, and is ok from it all. She is married to a good guy today.

 

[nismaratwork]

Having just seen a woman in Tripoli screaming about being raped, only to be literally bagged and dragged away, I think this misses the larger point about how women are treated around the world. This is literally the tip of a much larger iceberg; one that includes casual misogyny, and provides the framework for worse even if the "whistlers" are not the "gropers" (Frotteurists), who are separate from the rapists.

I think it's dangerous when you cease to treat people as PEOPLE; objectifying is common in some of the worst acts we commit as people, individually and in groups.


I really see no humor in this, and to be clear, I'm male.

 

[Char. Limit]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Saying "hey gorgeous" or complimenting someone on their looks can be considered sexual harassment now?

Just another thing to put on my list of "things I should not do around women": Compliment their looks.

 

[rootX]

Saying "hey gorgeous" or complimenting someone on their looks can be considered sexual harassment now?

No..

 

[Char. Limit]

No..

The quote from the article below:

When a man shouts "hi gorgeous" or "come over here love", the recipient of the comments might be annoyed, but the remarks are often disregarded by bystanders, so the problem goes largely unaddressed.

"Women are advised to ignore it, and we don't speak up about it. Therefore, these men keep on doing it and push boundaries further and further," says Simister.

And it's dangerous because it's difficult to distinguish which men simply shout and which ones may use catcalls as a gateway to violence or sexual aggression.

"If a guy is checking out a woman it's annoying, but that's how sexual predators who are honing their craft test how far they can go," says activist and filmmaker Maggie Hadleigh-West.

Seems to suggest that to me. It basically implies that men who do that are probably sexual predators.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think it's one thing to say to someone, "May I just say that you're absolutely stunning?" or, "You know, that's a great (accessory)!", or the cheesy-but-true, "Pardon me, and I'm not trying to be creepy here, but I just wanted to say that you have stunning eyes."

Saying, "hey gorgeous!" or "C'mere love!" is on a part with, "Nice ***" or "Great dress, it would look wonderful on my floor". In short, you can be aggressive and demeaning, or you can be expressing a genuine compliment without grabbing your crotch and whistling.

@rootX: Depends on where you work in the USA...

 

[Char. Limit]

I think it's one thing to say to someone, "May I just say that you're absolutely stunning?" or, "You know, that's a great (accessory)!", or the cheesy-but-true, "Pardon me, and I'm not trying to be creepy here, but I just wanted to say that you have stunning eyes."

Saying, "hey gorgeous!" or "C'mere love!" is on a part with, "Nice ***" or "Great dress, it would look wonderful on my floor". In short, you can be aggressive and demeaning, or you can be expressing a genuine compliment without grabbing your crotch and whistling.

@rootX: Depends on where you work in the USA...

I like to adopt the policy of "better safe than sorry", and considering how sue-happy America is, I think it's a good policy.

 

[nismaratwork]

I like to adopt the policy of "better safe than sorry", and considering how sue-happy America is, I think it's a good policy.

Better safe than sued, agreed.

 

[Femme_physics]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Saying "hey gorgeous" or complimenting someone on their looks can be considered sexual harassment now?

Just another thing to put on my list of "things I should not do around women": Compliment their looks.

*sigh*

Well, I'd appreciate a compliment, don't let this topic affect your natural behavior...

 

[nismaratwork]

*sigh*

Well, I'd appreciate a compliment, don't let this topic affect your natural behavior...

A compliment or a catcall?

 

[Femme_physics]

A compliment or a catcall?

Well, a compliment since it's more personal and nice. A catcall can sometimes be missed and tends to disorient you. Besides, I wouldn't like to talk with a man who catcalls because it tells me all about his nature, but I can appreciate his appreciation and enjoy the attention

 

[Char. Limit]

*sigh*

Well, I'd appreciate a compliment, don't let this topic affect your natural behavior...

But that's how I've gotten as far as I have. I let PF topics affect my natural behavior.

 

[Femme_physics]

But that's how I've gotten as far as I have. I let PF topics affect my natural behavior.

Well, then, I hope my feedback changes your mind a bit in this case. There's a reason why women put on make-up, it's not so you can ignore them all the time!

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, then, I hope my feedback changes your mind a bit in this case. There's a reason why women put on make-up, it's not so you can ignore them all the time!

True, it's so that other women can judge each other...

 

[DaveC426913]

Note that it's not always a one-way communication.

An appreciative gesture by a good looking gent might elicit a smile of appreciation, whereas the same gesture by an unattractive gent might elicit a grimace of 'what a creep'.

 

[Femme_physics]

Note that it's not always a one-way communication.

An appreciative gesture by a good looking gent might elicit a smile of appreciation, whereas the same gesture by an unattractive gent might elicit a grimace of 'what a creep'.

Well, I'm not sure how other women react but I never grimace regardless of how the guy looks.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, I'm not sure how other women react but I never grimace regardless of how the guy looks.

Ahhh, where the heck have you been all of every guy's life??

@DaveC: Again, I'd just say a polite gesture or appreciative glance is great and is a normal social cue, but "Hey baby, shake that 'rump'" or, "C'mere love!" is not going to end well. It may be cheesy, but buy a lady a drink, if it goes nowhere then so be it, and she gets a drink. Then there are guys who take umbrage when the drink doesn't equal rough play in a hotel bathroom.

It's a matter of agression, tact, social norms, and degree. It's very much the difference between, "Dave, would you please open the door for me, my wrist is really hurting." and "Hey Dave, get the door!"

To quote Whitney Cummings, "When have 5 guys in the back of a truck yelling at a woman ever ended in sex?" (paraphrased for Worksafeitude)

 

[Femme_physics]

Ahhh, where the heck have you been all of every guy's life??

I just don't like making people feel bad *shrugs*, particularly when they're expressing positive feelings towards me.

 

[Char. Limit]

I just don't like making people feel bad *shrugs*, particularly when they're expressing positive feelings towards me.

If only everyone was like you, I wouldn't worry so much.

 

[nismaratwork]

I just don't like making people feel bad *shrugs*, particularly when they're expressing positive feelings towards me.

For your own sake, just remember that some men are doing just that, and others are just objectifying you and then using the subsequent effect to reinforce their masculinity... which is often lacking in such cases.

A clumsy, but well meant compliment? I like your way.
An aggressive catcall which treats you as a slab of meat? No way.

No need to get militant mind you, but have a measure of self-respect even if others choose to show you less than that respect.

 

[nismaratwork]

If only everyone was like you, I wouldn't worry so much.

You're a good guy, and I don't think you have much to worry about... you don't strike me as the leering and jeering type. You seem like the type to buy someone a drink and take what comes or not after. No crime there (yet lol).

 

[Femme_physics]

For your own sake, just remember that some men are doing just that, and others are just objectifying you and then using the subsequent effect to reinforce their masculinity... which is often lacking in such cases.

A clumsy, but well meant compliment? I like your way.
An aggressive catcall which treats you as a slab of meat? No way.

Well, I'd prefer the clumsy compliment, especially if it's made by nerds who tend to be so shy (and why? they're the cutest!)

But, even if I'm honked or catcalled at all I think is "people think I'm pretty w00t!"...although it does get kinda weird when strangers invite me to their cars... which, by the way, does tend to happen when I wait alone in a bus station... but yea... I also grin when they drive away. It's like when I'm sometimes bored at the bus station I look at the drivers faces to see if they stare at me, heh.
What? I need a way to pass the time... I admit I like the attention and I'm not going to make pretenses... ^^

 

[Char. Limit]

You're a good guy, and I don't think you have much to worry about... you don't strike me as the leering and jeering type. You seem like the type to buy someone a drink and take what comes or not after. No crime there (yet lol).

Couldn't do that. Too scared of rejection.

 

[nismaratwork]

Couldn't do that. Too scared of rejection.

Heh... me too... at least you're young enough to have an excuse! My first girlfriend didn't even get through to me when she asked me for help with a math class she didn't even have. I've gotten better, as I suspect you will, but yeah... that BIG first move in a casual setting is suttering for me at best.

Isn't it great having self-esteem issues?

@Femme: Invited to a car?! Whoa... that's very 'Silence of The Lambs'. For the rest, well... you're a woman... if it works for you then it's right. It might be wrong for another, but you can't be wrong in matters of taste (parahrase).

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, I'd prefer the clumsy compliment, especially if it's made by nerds who tend to be so shy (and why? they're the cutest!)

But, even if I'm honked or catcalled at all I think is "people think I'm pretty w00t!"...although it does get kinda weird when strangers invite me to their cars... which, by the way, happens a lot when I wait alone in a bus station... but yea... I also grin when they drive away. It's like when I'm sometimes bored at the bus station I look at the drivers faces to see if they stare at me, heh.
What? I need a way to pass the time... I admit I like the attention and I'm not going to make pretenses... ^^

Heh, women who appreciate shyness are the only reason that people like me and sooo many others don't die alone without "virtue intact".

As for liking attention, I'd hate that, even if I looked FANTASTIC... waaaaaay to shy, but I can appreciate that kind of attitude in others, male and female. Kudos to you!

 

[rootX]

Couldn't do that. Too scared of rejection.

Heh... me too... at least you're young enough to have an excuse! My first girlfriend didn't even get through to me when she asked me for help with a math class she didn't even have. I've gotten better, as I suspect you will, but yeah... that BIG first move in a casual setting is suttering for me at best.

Isn't it great having self-esteem issues?

I am so bad with girls that I don't even know where to start ... :shy:. I somehow found myself turning down all girls who approached me (asking for phone number, giving random gifts, just being intrusive, or demanding emotions). It's good to be ladies man and willingness to give attention when they ask for it .. but that's just bit too much for me.

 

[jhae2.718]

I am so bad with girls that I don't even know where to start ...

For me, it doesn't help that the only topics about which I can speak comfortably are mathematics, physics, and engineering...

 

[nismaratwork]

I am so bad with girls that I don't even know where to start ... :shy:. I somehow found myself turning down all girls who approached me (asking for phone number, giving random gifts, just being intrusive, or demanding emotions). It's good to be ladies man and willingness to give attention when they ask for it .. but that's just bit too much for me.

I'd offer advice, but sadly I can only offer brotherhood in being a wimp around women.

@Jhae: Have you tried whispering, "All non-trivial zeroes of the zeta function have real part one-half," in her ear sotto vocce?

Yeah... on the bright side we're not alone in being shy bastards around women.

 

[nismaratwork]

Heh, in a bar in NC, a woman sitting next to me got me to actually sing along with her to 'Mister Brightside' by The Killers. I admit, I was 2 servings of gin down, which is no excuse, but really I was just clueless. She turned to me and said she loved that song, then kissed me... seriously.

I almost fainted, and I don't mean that figuratively. There I was, an attractive woman (a teacher) who just kissed me, and I was too busy internally listing the reasons why I suck to take the hint. I basically turned down casual sex and a date on the grounds of being gentlemanly... aka a complete coward.

*sigh*

I still can't imagine why she'd kiss me, I'd gained weight by then... I was sitting quietly away from the bar and dance floor... I do not understand women. Then again, if not weight it would have been something else, I know, but... oy.

What the hell is wrong with us, that we're not socially inept, but woman turn us into stammering idiots with the self-esteem of a gnat?

 

[jhae2.718]

What the hell is wrong with us, that we're not socially inept, but woman turn us into stammering idiots with the self-esteem of a gnat?

Well, I can talk to them about math, but that doesn't get you anywhere...and if it did, I'd probably spontaneously combust...

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, I can talk to them about math, but that doesn't get you anywhere...and if it did, I'd probably spontaneously combust...

No no, you'd feel like that, and you'd be married within the year.

 

[Char. Limit]

I heard a saying once, I can't remember from where.

"A man chases a woman until she catches him."

 

[nismaratwork]

I heard a saying once, I can't remember from where.

"A man chases a woman until she catches him."

Heh... that's wisdom right there. Good thing too, or again, we'd die alone.

 

[Femme_physics]

@Femme: Invited to a car?! Whoa... that's very 'Silence of The Lambs'. For the rest, well... you're a woman... if it works for you then it's right. It might be wrong for another, but you can't be wrong in matters of taste (parahrase).

Agreed. :)