Is String Theory the Ultimate Theory of Everything?

Hossam Halim
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Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!
 
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Hossam Halim said:
Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!

String theory at this point is not right OR wrong, it is simply a hypothesis that has no experimental evidence but which would explain a lot of stuff very nicely if it DOES turn out to describe reality.

Why would you want to abandon the search for a theory of everything? Do you not care about knowledge?
 
I meant we should search for the theory of everything with different thinking and to leave string theory as there are 2 experiments falsify it
 
Hossam Halim said:
I meant we should search for the theory of everything with different thinking and to leave string theory as there are 2 experiments falsify it

Which two experiments falsify string theory?
 
Hossam Halim said:
I meant we should search for the theory of everything with different thinking and to leave string theory as there are 2 experiments falsify it

As George requested, you MUST back up such a statement with citations otherwise it is just an unsubstantiated personal theory.
 
Google this : ( string theory fails test )
 
Hossam Halim said:
Google this : ( string theory fails test )

Sorry, but this is insufficient.

When you are trying to back up your argument, you must provide proper citation. Asking people to search for the source to support your point should not be done. Google search will turn up both valid and dubious sources. Which one did you use?

Please provide clear, valid references as soon as possible, or this thread will be closed.

Zz.
 
All of these are of the following nature:

- Had they been found, they would have added support to (but not confirmed) string theory
- Not finding them does not even remotely disprove string theory

All of the sources you provide are of dubious reliability, or strongly biased.
 
  • #10
Hossam Halim said:

Please re-read the PF Rules that you had agreed to. Pay attention to the type of sources that we consider as valid.

Not knowing your background, I will assume that you are not familiar with how things are done in science. Valid sources require a DIRECT citation of either well-established standard text/references, or a publication in our accepted peer-reviewed journals. Personal websites and blogs (even by Woit) do not constitute as valid sources. If you used this, then you are using 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th hand news.

This may be an "ordinary" forum, we are try to adhere to the higher standards on the quality of discussion. This means that references and sources must be of the same standard. This hopefully will prevent discussions at the level of tabloid journalism where dubious sources and any and all garbage are in. It also forces YOU to pay attention to where you are getting your information, and hopefully, educate you on how science is practiced.

Zz.
 
  • #11
Hossam Halim said:
Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!

As already pointed out, string or M theory are just theories - they haven't been disproved or confirmed, because they exist far away from our experimental reaches, and their phenomenological results haven't been found yet (however that's a very difficult way to "disprove" the theory, more oftenly, you are just going to disprove one model out of the theory or something like that).

I'd quote Feynman for the "theory of everything" thing, because asking whether we should search or not for a "theory of everything" is more a philosophical question... we are just exploring nature, if there happens to be a "theory of everything" so be it, if there doesn't so be it- we are just seeking for our own answers.

I don't think physicists at the moment do research on string theory (Glashow's viewpoint?). That's something mathematicians or string theorists do. Physicists are trying to find phenomenological results out of it.
 
  • #12
ChrisVer said:
I'd quote Feynman for the "theory of everything" thing, because asking whether we should search or not for a "theory of everything" is more a philosophical question... we are just exploring nature, if there happens to be a "theory of everything" so be it, if there doesn't so be it- we are just seeking for our own answers.

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyynpf8x74I
 
  • #13
phinds said:
String theory at this point is not right OR wrong, it is simply a hypothesis that has no experimental evidence but which would explain a lot of stuff very nicely if it DOES turn out to describe reality.
Would it really explain at least something?

There is an old joke, that according to string theory our universe is exceptional: It is the only one which string theory is unable to explain.

phinds said:
Why would you want to abandon the search for a theory of everything? Do you not care about knowledge?

The main problem with string theory is that the focus of research capabilities on string theory leaves no place for any other, independent search for a theory of everything.
 
  • #14
Ilja said:
There is an old joke, that according to string theory our universe is exceptional: It is the only one which string theory is unable to explain.
I was going to post a joke about String Theory, but there were too many of them. :smile:

Hossam Halim said:
I meant we should search for the theory of everything with different thinking and to leave string theory as there are 2 experiments falsify it
Judging by your indirect references, the two results you're referring to are:

1) The LHC failed to find evidence for Supersymmetry. This only means that the mass of any supersymmetric partners would be beyond the reach of the LHC, about 1 TeV. There were good reasons for hoping that Supersymmetry would show up at relatively low energies, but even though it did not, it's still a reasonable possibility at higher energy.

2) The LHC failed to find micro black holes. This would have been evidence for large extra dimensions, a somewhat far out idea.

String Theory does not really have anything to say about physics at LHC energies, so these two results neither confirm or invalidate it.
 
  • #15
Ilja said:
The main problem with string theory is that the focus of research capabilities on string theory leaves no place for any other, independent search for a theory of everything.

Now that's just silly. No one area of study precludes any other area of study.
 
  • #16
Although Supersymmetry is a very nice theory, it's even more elusive than string theory...
Because we always expect to find it at some scales, yet it always avoids our detection hahaha.., At least you know that for strings the energies are unreachable and you only search for evidences of it, however for susy you know very much less (even the mass of Higgs is within the limits of MSSM+radiative corrections (<130GeV).
Nevertheless, don't forget some historical facts. When people first proposed the top quark, they were expecting to find it at ~50-70GeV (sorry I don't remember the exact energy). Of course, it finally appeared at ~170-175 GeV.

Of course there are searches outside string theory... However, during several eras in physics, there are some reasons why people like a theory more than others- because it seems more consistent/predictive. That was one of the reasons QCD dropped away string theory for some decades. But again it's a matter of personal view (some people like string theorists, some others don't consider them to be physicists- as I stated above Glashow belongs to the 2nd group).

Also the person who will come and tell you that he has the theory that describes everything, either his theory is wrong or he won't be a physicist hahahaha (joke)
 
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  • #17
phinds said:
Now that's just silly. No one area of study precludes any other area of study.
Now that's just naive.

I said that tongue in cheek, but Lee Smolin has argued (in his book The Trouble with Physics, among other places) that the stronghold of string theory has has stifled research in other theories of quantum gravity, through funding and tenure.
 
  • #18
Bill_K said:
I was going to post a joke about String Theory, but there were too many of them. :smile:Judging by your indirect references, the two results you're referring to are:

1) The LHC failed to find evidence for Supersymmetry. This only means that the mass of any supersymmetric partners would be beyond the reach of the LHC, about 1 TeV. There were good reasons for hoping that Supersymmetry would show up at relatively low energies, but even though it did not, it's still a reasonable possibility at higher energy.

2) The LHC failed to find micro black holes. This would have been evidence for large extra dimensions, a somewhat far out idea.

String Theory does not really have anything to say about physics at LHC energies, so these two results neither confirm or invalidate it.

What are the limits on the mass of supersymmetric partners?

I mean, in the future we might have a faster particle accelerator, and they may argue the same argument as you do now, that we need a faster accelrator.

If they don't have some falsifiable limits on the bounds of the masses, then it's not even a theory.
It may even postulate that the energies are infinite, in which case you can never really know if the theory is right or wrong.
 
  • #19
MathematicalPhysicist said:
What are the limits on the mass of supersymmetric partners?

I mean, in the future we might have a faster particle accelerator, and they may argue the same argument as you do now, that we need a faster accelrator.

If they don't have some falsifiable limits on the bounds of the masses, then it's not even a theory.
It may even postulate that the energies are infinite, in which case you can never really know if the theory is right or wrong.

String theory makes very definite predictions about physics at the Planck energy. That is still like zero compared to infinite energy. However, it might as well be infinite compared to current technology.
 
  • #20
PAllen said:
String theory makes very definite predictions about physics at the Planck energy. That is still like zero compared to infinite energy. However, it might as well be infinite compared to current technology.

What is the interval of required energies?

I understand that 1 Tev is in the lower end.
 
  • #21
Hossam Halim said:
Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!

Although string theory has taken many twists and turns and many physicists have concerns about the amount of research effort put into it, which could be directed towards other theories of quantum gravity, I think this has been over exaggerated in popular writings, recently.

It's popular to note that string theory has been in development for decades and hasn't yet been confirmed by experiment, but it's also important to note that it hasn't been excluded by experiment either. In fact, to disprove it at low energies, where almost all observational data is gathered, would involve disproving QFT itself, which would be much more problematic.

Amongst other things, string theory has given us the AdS/CFT correspondence, which although it is still conjecture, is widely accepted in theoretical physics and has found uses in our understanding QFT and black holes.

Is string theory a ToE? I'd say probably not because it doesn't tell us how the vacuum of our universe is selected, but it's certainly a useful mathematical description, which could form a subset of, or a limiting case of, a ToE.
 
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  • #22
MathematicalPhysicist said:
What are the limits on the mass of supersymmetric partners?

I mean, in the future we might have a faster particle accelerator, and they may argue the same argument as you do now, that we need a faster accelrator.

If they don't have some falsifiable limits on the bounds of the masses, then it's not even a theory.
It may even postulate that the energies are infinite, in which case you can never really know if the theory is right or wrong.

The limits for mass particles don't come from Supersymmetry I guess, they come from the models of Supersymmetry. So models can of course be wrong-
I remembered the value- when the top quark was proposed (right after the discovery of bottom), the models we made proposed that it should have a mass of roughly 17GeV... they didn't find it there, so they said it must be around 30, 40, 50GeV the most... The top quark appeared at 170GeV, and from that we get some lesson. Firstly, the nature will show itself up as it is and not as we want it to be. And secondly, we don't know why the top quark must be so heavy.
 
  • #23
craigi said:
Is string theory a ToE? I'd say probably not because it doesn't tell us how the vacuum of our universe is selected, but it's certainly a useful mathematical description, which could form a subset of, or a limiting case of, a ToE.

Well, since supergravity is the extension of string theory at lower energies, and since sugra gives us the susy breaking mechanism that allows E_{vacuum} to take zero (or almost zero-as we measure it today-) value, isn't that a possible answer to how it's chosen?
 
  • #24
ChrisVer said:
The limits for mass particles don't come from Supersymmetry I guess, they come from the models of Supersymmetry. So models can of course be wrong-
I remembered the value- when the top quark was proposed (right after the discovery of bottom), the models we made proposed that it should have a mass of roughly 17GeV... they didn't find it there, so they said it must be around 30, 40, 50GeV the most... The top quark appeared at 170GeV, and from that we get some lesson. Firstly, the nature will show itself up as it is and not as we want it to be. And secondly, we don't know why the top quark must be so heavy.

Wait a minute, how do they know that it's a top quark before detecting it?

I mean presumably it has some properties that were detected and thus they concluded that it's a top quark. What properties are they looking for in supersymmetry that were'nt detected yet?

I mean this enterprise of research can last for decades (unless people who fund this research will be fed up with no experimental results).

This reminds me of the bet:
http://longbets.org/12/

Just less than 6 more years to go.
 
  • #25
MathematicalPhysicist said:
Wait a minute, how do they know that it's a top quark before detecting it?

I mean presumably it has some properties that were detected and thus they concluded that it's a top quark. What properties are they looking for in supersymmetry that were'nt detected yet?

I mean this enterprise of research can last for decades (unless people who fund this research will be fed up with no experimental results).

This reminds me of the bet:
http://longbets.org/12/

Just less than 6 more years to go.

Some I guess didn't expect such a big divergence to the quarks' masses... And since they found the bottom at ~4GeV, they wouldn't expect the next one to be at 170GeV. And models probably were built to give them this result too.. of course they failed, but also we knew there should be the 6th quark after finding the 5th... That's how it works...
We weren't bored of quarks or leptons,and chose to bring about their superpartners to have more fun... SuSy fixes some problems which are pretty strong, as the gauge hierarchy problem (of course next to SuSy there are more candidates)

At the moment?
They are looking at LHC for enough missing energy (that will be LSP leaving the detectors).
http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.201802

Or cosmological searches, for WIMPs maybe...
 
  • #26
MathematicalPhysicist said:
What is the interval of required energies?

I understand that 1 Tev is in the lower end.

The Planck energy is 10,000 trillion Tev.
 
  • #27
PAllen said:
The Planck energy is 10,000 trillion Tev.

Ok, then why do theorists keep working on it?

I see now why Kaku awaits for a pure mathematical solution for this theory, it's pure mathematics.
 
  • #28
MathematicalPhysicist said:
Ok, then why do theorists keep working on it?

I see now why Kaku awaits for a pure mathematical solution for this theory, it's pure mathematics.

Theorists work on open problems that interest them. The following are some of the open problems in high energy physics:

- SM does not extend consistently to very high energies
- there are a large number of fundamental constants in SM
- at high enough energies, gravity cannot be ignored in particle interactions

In cosmology, a few are:

- the precise character and scale of deviations from isotropy and homogeneity
- the apparent value of the cosmological constant (or acceleration of expansion).
[I hate the term dark energy]
- dark matter, or the problem dynamics of galaxies and clusters + gravitational lensing
observations

Theorists who work on string theory are following their informed hunch that it provides a framework in which progress on all of these can be made. Theorists who work on other approaches are following different hunches, including the hunch that solutions to some of these problems are independent of each other (or can be treated as such). [The grandiose name TOE has been given to a hypothetical unified theory that solves this particular collection of problems, along with some closely related ones].

Any theorist who thinks string theory remains the most promising approach, should obviously continue to work on it.
 
  • #29
I think that from PAllen's high energy physics bullets, the last one is the most important for string theory as a mathematical theory (I'm making this distinction because we cannot look at it in a direct experiment...). String theory contains gravity because it contains SUGRA. SuGra is nice because just by dealing with a local supersymmetric theory (on the superspace), you get the gravity because of this relation:
[ε(x) Q, \bar{Q} \bar{ε}(x)]= 2 i ε(x) \sigma^{\mu} \bar{ε}(x) P_{\mu}
(maybe I put an extra "i"?)
which tells you that the generators of a local (the ε depends on the spacetime point) supersymmetry transformation create a spacetime translation which depends on the point you've chosen (because the RHS depends on x)- this is the theory of gravity.
So String Theory(theories)>SuGra, can explain gravity without the problems arising from the Standard Model, or without Loop Quantum Gravity approaches which don't care about the perturbative renormalizability (=it's not a fundamental requirement) of the quantum gravity theory. (super)String theory however surpasses this problem (of course it has its own- like the tachyonic modes), and also it contributes to the unification of the forces.
 
  • #30
PAllen said:
Theorists work on open problems that interest them. The following are some of the open problems in high energy physics:

- SM does not extend consistently to very high energies
- there are a large number of fundamental constants in SM
- at high enough energies, gravity cannot be ignored in particle interactions

In cosmology, a few are:

- the precise character and scale of deviations from isotropy and homogeneity
- the apparent value of the cosmological constant (or acceleration of expansion).
[I hate the term dark energy]
- dark matter, or the problem dynamics of galaxies and clusters + gravitational lensing
observations

Theorists who work on string theory are following their informed hunch that it provides a framework in which progress on all of these can be made. Theorists who work on other approaches are following different hunches, including the hunch that solutions to some of these problems are independent of each other (or can be treated as such). [The grandiose name TOE has been given to a hypothetical unified theory that solves this particular collection of problems, along with some closely related ones].

Any theorist who thinks string theory remains the most promising approach, should obviously continue to work on it.

Well, one question that arises is if there is an upper bound on the energy in the universe?

If there is no upper bound, then theories in physics will never end just like theories in maths.
 
  • #31
There is a vast ocean of physics regimes, theories and possibilities that have very little chance of ever directly being probed that are nevertheless possible, plausible and some are almost certainly true or widely suspected by almost every expert (for instance the rh neutrino species and/or magnetic monopoles)

quantum gravity in general seems to resist being measured despite decades of research. For some reason String theory is often singled out amongst the many candidates even though they all share the same property. Indeed, things are actually better for string theory, bc it does make clear predictions in principle if you had access to such a detector (or a good enough observational window into the early universe)..

As for the question, what about physics at even higher energies than the Planck scale, well it's certainly possible to consider but you get into some subtle issues defining what you mean precisely. What type of experiment do you have in mind and exactly what are you measuring?
 
  • #32
Above the Planck's mass scale, an object having the characteristic Planck length becomes a singularity/black hole.
 
  • #33
Hossam Halim said:
Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!

I remember reading a SciAm article in May 2014, over concern of end to Supersymmetry due to lack of data from LHC. I was not aware of the claim to the "end to string/M theory". Now I did look up in google where in another post you requested to look up "string theory fails test". I found this on the 4th link:

"did-the-lhc-just-rule-out-string-theory"

This plus the other examples kind of clearly show no such "end". I will grant you there are no currently validatable tests for M theory in any form. Does not in and of itself mean that String or M theory could not be viable.
 
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  • #34
Hossam Halim said:
Hello,
Is string theory or M theory wrong ? Isn't it the theory of everything ? Should we continue our research to reach the true theory of everything ? If so, why physicists still research on string theory ?!

First off, M-theory is not yet complete. It's a work in progress and involves very high level mathematics. You must remember that string theory was not originally used to describe quantum gravity. Gravitons, tachyons and string theory's relation to supergravity were found later, as a few brave souls kept working on the theory.

Think of the situation this way: there is a mysterious theory that people are trying to study in our current, limited mathematical framework. At this time, we need to understand mathematics at a much deeper level, to even make progress with M-theory. So far, a generalization of the Langland's program, along with a better mastery of motives and noncommutative geometry, seems to be very helpful in generalizing D=11 supergravity.
 
  • #35
The trouble with current string theory is that it is only defined perturbably. (That is in terms of series of string diagrams). That is why M-Theory in 11 dimensions is thought to be needed to unite all string theories in a non-perturbative framework. Some things, like the Higgs framework, only make sense non-perturbably so String theory is not necessarily wrong, but is not considered "complete".

Also string theory is defined on a set background space-time whereas it is thought a complete theory should not have the background space-time as an input but as a consequence.

Lastly it is not yet proven that String Theory is necessary. Since it's low energy limit N=8 Supergravity (coupled to E8xE8 Super-Yang Mills) has not proven yet to diverge.

To me M-Theory or at least matrix theory described in terms of D0 branes connected by strings which quantize supermembranes in certain limits and Loop Quantum Gravity described in terms of spin-networks seem remarkably similar in their basic design. Hence foresee a more complete theory as incorporating aspects from both theories.
 
  • #36
String theory has neither been confirmed, or disproven by experiments to date. Its premises are difficult to constrain and more than a few believe the relevant energy levels are far beyond our present or future technological capabilities. That suggests the only hope is astrophysics. The universe is capable of inconceivable energy levels. The trick is where and what to look for.
 
  • #37
Is string theory going in a wrong direction? Is it going anywhere, in any case?
 
  • #38
What do you mean by "in a wrong direction"?
The string theory as it is, is a mathematical theory. It still lacks the mathematics needed to be completed and that's what people are working on. They are roughly speaking not physicists neither mathematicians but something hybrid...
It has so many available windows, that IMO one of them will have to be correct at some point...
At the moment, the only way it's going (as I see it) is building up the new mathematics it needs.
 
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  • #39
arivero said:
Is string theory going in a wrong direction? Is it going anywhere, in any case?

Maybe. How would we know? We'll only know which direction is right once it is complete.

And by complete it has to:

  • Be able to make calculations at high energies and small distances.
  • Be able to predict the masses, charges and spins of all yet undiscovered particles.
  • Be able to give correct answers near intense gravitational fields like a black hole.
  • Not give answers as series that diverge.
  • Satisfy all known symmetries and some that are unknown.
  • Be consistent when applied to the whole Universe.
 
  • #40
I've heard it said that SUSY and SUGRA are necessarily low energy effective theories in any String theory. If this is the case, then it might very well be possible to rule out SUSY. We have a variety of LHC and other exclusions that push up the minimum mass scale of any SUSY/SUGRA theory in order to avoid discernable differences from the SM in experiments so far.

It only takes one decent, not very strong exclusion in the other direction from phenomenological properties of very high energy scale SUSY/SUGRA theories that manifest at low energies (e.g. neutrinoless beta decay rates) to create a vice that excludes 100% of the SUSY/SUGRA parameter space. If ruling out 100% of the SUSY/SUGRA parameter space suffices to rule out String theory, then this is something that could happen in our lifetimes (at least for the younger participants in this forum).

Another reason to take pause at String theory is that it goes to really great lengths, for example, requiring 7 extra compactified dimensions, to integrate gravity and the other SM forces (which are often confined to a four dimensional manifold). If you have to contort the overall theory so much simply to secure that one feature, maybe you are taking the wrong approach to quantum gravity.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the insights of string theory are pertinent to a deeper theory that explains the SM and GR's loose ends better, but now that the Higgs boson mass insures that the SM doesn't break down anywhere all of the way up to the Planck scale, the absolute need for it is much less compelling.
 
  • #41
ChrisVer said:
What do you mean by "in a wrong direction"?

At the moment, the only way it's going (as I see it) is building up the new mathematics it needs.

nuclearhead said:
Maybe. How would we know? We'll only know which direction is right once it is complete.

Well, if QFT were mainly used by their developers in a field foreigh to particle physics, say prediction of stock market, I'd say that it is not wrong, but it is going in a wrong direction. And of course arguments of mathematical learning and internal consistency could be given to explain that all the development and discoveries we do while looking to the renormalisation group of stock options (I am just joining words here, not claiming that such thing does exist) will allow to find the right formulation of the theory and then understand its use in particle physics. Yes, could be. And you can go to Japan from Europe traveling westwards. But it is the wrong direction.
 
  • #42
ohwilleke said:
I've heard it said that SUSY and SUGRA are necessarily low energy effective theories in any String theory.

...

Another reason to take pause at String theory is that it goes to really great lengths, for example, requiring 7 extra compactified dimensions,

...

Nice, such are the reasons that make me to think that string theory is right and that it just happens not to be going in the right direction, namely to try to fit with the spectrum of HEP particles at the QCD-electroweak energy level. Which is the thing for which String Theory was invented.

The point that the smallest spaces whose isometry group is SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) happen to be 7-dimensional makes me to believe that the M-theory idea could have some fundation. Furthermore, the number of degrees of freerom of the "low energy M-Theory", aka supergravity, is the same that in the SUSY SM with right neutrinos. I even imagine that the need of an 8th dimension to build manifolds with Pati-Salam symmetry is related to the existence of F-Theory or other string-theoretical.

As for SUSY itself, remember that my own pet theory looks very much as having an open string terminated in five different flavours. So I had hoped that a string theory worried about the GeV scale could also find this scheme. It could have happened if they had followed some early papers of Schwarz in 1971, where he considered both quarks and gluonic strings as part of the same scheme. Or could have happened afted the discovery of SUSY with some variant of the bootstrap ideas of Chew; in the original bootstrap you ask every particle to be a composite of all the others; with SUSY you can just ask the susy partners to be composite of the known elementary objects, and then it automagically implies three generations.
 
  • #43
ChrisVer said:
The limits for mass particles don't come from Supersymmetry I guess, they come from the models of Supersymmetry. So models can of course be wrong-
I remembered the value- when the top quark was proposed (right after the discovery of bottom), the models we made proposed that it should have a mass of roughly 17GeV... they didn't find it there, so they said it must be around 30, 40, 50GeV the most... The top quark appeared at 170GeV, and from that we get some lesson. Firstly, the nature will show itself up as it is and not as we want it to be. And secondly, we don't know why the top quark must be so heavy.

For instance, a guy in that time, using SUSY and a Chew-like Bootstrap idea, had been able to predict the third generation... and a heavy top. This is discussed in old threads; let me to sketch the argument.

1) Demand that [scalar] superparticles are composites of [fermionic] particles; this is, that the number of degrees of freedom must be the same, for each sector of charge. So N flavours UP and M flavours DOWN will bind to form sparticles, "diquarks" if you wish, under a SU(N)xSU(M). One finds that there is no non-trivial solution... but...

2) Demand that only "Light" quarks can bind to build such composites. Then you have a series of solution, with "heavy" families, "light" families and perhaps a "mixed" one. The simplest solution of the series has two "light" and one "mixed", the heavy quark being of charge +2/3.

3) [bonus] Use quark-antiquark to build the superpartners of leptons. It fits perfectly with the number of charged leptons (it is the same condition than for down-type quarks) and predicts 12 neutral scalar degrees of freedom, so it predicts right neutrinos too.

Such argument could have happened in the seventies. But the superstring & susy guys had already buried the bootstrap and started to sail towards Planck Scale, the gold pot at the end of the rainbow. Had they being able to predict the third generation and its peculiar light-heavy mix, they had shown that "string methodology" can do predictions.
 
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  • #44
arivero said:
For instance, a guy in that time, using SUSY and a Chew-like Bootstrap idea, had been able to predict the third generation... and a heavy top. This is discussed in old threads; let me to sketch the argument.

1) Demand that [scalar] superparticles are composites of [fermionic] particles; this is, that the number of degrees of freedom must be the same, for each sector of charge. So N flavours UP and M flavours DOWN will bind to form sparticles, "diquarks" if you wish, under a SU(N)xSU(M). One finds that there is no non-trivial solution... but...

2) Demand that only "Light" quarks can bind to build such composites. Then you have a series of solution, with "heavy" families, "light" families and perhaps a "mixed" one. The simplest solution of the series has two "light" and one "mixed", the heavy quark being of charge +2/3.

3) [bonus] Use quark-antiquark to build the superpartners of leptons. It fits perfectly with the number of charged leptons (it is the same condition than for down-type quarks) and predicts 12 neutral scalar degrees of freedom, so it predicts right neutrinos too.

Such argument could have happened in the seventies. But the superstring & susy guys had already buried the bootstrap and started to sail towards Planck Scale, the gold pot at the end of the rainbow. Had they being able to predict the third generation and its peculiar light-heavy mix, they had shown that "string methodology" can do predictions.

When Einstein tried to create his unified theory, of gravity and electromagnetism it didn't work because a few years later more particles and forces were discovered.

Any theory today that predicts only the Standard Model particles will almost certainly be wrong as more particles and forces are discovered in the future.

String theory, at least, says that no matter how much energy you put into a machine like the LHC you will always find new particles of higher and higher masses. (The modes of a string).

To me this seems more likely than to say (like Einstein mistakenly did) "we've discovered everything - all we have to do is find the pattern". Or, like the captain of the Titanic, "that Iceberg doesn't look very big" when 99% of it is under the water.

So if you think that there will always be new particles at higher energies then you have to either believe in string theory or kalulza-klein theories as they are the ones that predict this. But this is impossible to prove experimentally, so you can only prove it with math and show that the infinities go away if you accept these heavy particles exist.
 
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  • #45
nuclearhead said:
So if you think that there will always be new particles at higher energies then you have to either believe in string theory or kalulza-klein theories as they are the ones that predict this. But this is impossible to prove experimentally, so you can only prove it with math and show that the infinities go away if you accept these heavy particles exist.

So you also think that the String scale is not Planck scale, but TeV or near? Huge extra dimensions?
 
  • #46
phinds said:
Now that's just silly. No one area of study precludes any other area of study.

Not intellectually, but financially maybe?
 
  • #47
nuclearhead said:
Any theory today that predicts only the Standard Model particles will almost certainly be wrong as more particles and forces are discovered in the future. . . . So if you think that there will always be new particles at higher energies then you have to either believe in string theory or kalulza-klein theories as they are the ones that predict this. But this is impossible to prove experimentally, so you can only prove it with math and show that the infinities go away if you accept these heavy particles exist.

FWIW, I am not at all certain that more particles and forces will be discovered in the future. The SM particles plus a graviton plus a better understanding of the fabric of space-time may be it. If I were a Baysean, I might assign a prior probability of 33% to a scenario like that.

* Even if there are more particles, the number may be quite few. We may need new physics, and with it, new particles, to explain dark matter, dark energy, inflation, the strong CP problem, neutrino mass and oscillation, and baryogenesis and leptogenesis. But, we might not.

If there are dark matter fermions, there could be a set as complex as the SM fermions, there could be a triplet of sterile neutrino-like particles, or there could be a spin-1/2 or spin-3/2 singlet gravitino.

There might be in the dark sector, a set of bosons as complex as the SM bosons, there could be a DM self-interaction boson (perhaps a MeV scale mass dark photon), dark matter itself could be an axion-like boson (which might also give rise to dark energy), there might be a dark energy scalar boson, or there might be a couple of extra graviton-like bosons (the spin-2 graviton we know and love, a spin-1 vector graviton to give rise to DM effects, and a spin-0 graviton to give rise to dark energy).

There might be a separate inflation boson (probably a scalar or a tensor), or inflation might arise from some source that also explains something else (e.g. the Higgs field or a unified GUT boson or the fabric of space-time's properties or gravitational potential energy in a near singularity regime).

There might be a light Z boson-like particle that facilitates neutrino oscillation (perhaps also interacting with dark matter to generate neutrino mass in a see-saw mechanism) or there might not.

There might be an axion that addresses the strong CP problem and has no role in the dark sector or inflation or neutrino oscillation, but I really doubt it.

There might be a heavy W/Z boson-like particle that violates B and L number conservation or the universe's non-zero B and L number might have no discernible particle or force mechanism to explain it any more than we have a particle or force mechanism to explain why the universe has precisely the amount of mass-energy that it does.

* Honestly, I really doubt that there are even that many. My money would be on 5-6 more at most, and probably less. Dark energy, inflation and B and L violation, are probably more likely to be manifestations of already known particles and forces that behave in unexpected ways under certain circumstances.

For example, an inflation may be the form the SM gauge bosons (i.e. the photon, gluon, W and Z bosons) take at the GUT scale when there is a gauge unification, or might be a high energy manifestation of the Higgs boson and field, or it might arise from quantum gravity effects. Dark energy might very well be a manifestation of a baseline of graviton or photon or both kinds of radiation or a property of space-time itself. B and L might not be violated at all and have had their values since the Big Bang and not be broken symmetries

The DM sector might very well not have its own boson and only have a DM fermion. A singlet DM particle is as likely as a triplet in my mind. Then again, DM may not exist at all with its phenomena actually due to quantum gravity effects, or the exclusion of gravitational waves with lengths approaching the length of the universe, or ill appreciated non-Newtonian aspects of GR, or due to one or two more gravitational bosons in addition to the tensor graviton (e.g. perhaps a vector graviton giving rise to DM phenomena and a scalar graviton giving rise to dark energy).

At this point, I think that the likelihood of a zoo full of new fundamental particles a la the extra Higgs bosons and superpartners of SUSY is remote (probably less than 5%).

* I could imagine, and at some level expect, that all "fundamental" particles are actually made of some smaller subset of preons bound together by a single preon binding force with a boson to carry it, or even from just one or two kinds of strings. While, I suppose that this kind of substructure would qualify as new particles or forces, substructure like this might very well manifest only in the existing particle set.

* Also, I could imagine that we actually have too many particles already.

For example, I could imagine that the Higgs boson is really some manner of composite of the photon and the W+, W-, and Z bosons (e.g. if the photon and Z have opposite spin, and the W+ and W- have opposite spin, these four have a combined spin-0 even like the SM Higgs, and have the same combined charge, further the Higgs boson mass is very close to the masses of these four electro-weak bosons combined divided by the square root of four (the number of bosons being combined), and all particles that have a Higgs boson Yukawa also interact with the W and Z bosons, unlike the gluon which does not).

* I could also imagine that the existing SM forces unify and become indistinguishable from each other at a GUT scale, giving rise to a unified GUT boson that might be critical in understanding inflation, baryongenesis, leptogenesis and DM creation, but I wouldn't necessarily call that a new particle or force.

* I could also imagine that there are composite particles that exist in some circumstances but have not yet been discovered (e.g. various kinds of lepton-lepton atoms like muonium, unstable baryons that are stable in esoteric high energy conditions and form atoms in those circumstances, rare and short lived top quark hadrons, tetra/penta/hexa/septaquarks, glueballs and glue-quark hybrid particles).

* Similarly, I could imagine new effective "spillover forces" like the nuclear binding force between baryons which is a spillover of the strong force and carried by pions.
 
  • #48
arivero said:
For instance, a guy in that time, using SUSY and a Chew-like Bootstrap idea, had been able to predict the third generation... and a heavy top. This is discussed in old threads; let me to sketch the argument.

1) Demand that [scalar] superparticles are composites of [fermionic] particles; this is, that the number of degrees of freedom must be the same, for each sector of charge. So N flavours UP and M flavours DOWN will bind to form sparticles, "diquarks" if you wish, under a SU(N)xSU(M). One finds that there is no non-trivial solution... but...

2) Demand that only "Light" quarks can bind to build such composites. Then you have a series of solution, with "heavy" families, "light" families and perhaps a "mixed" one. The simplest solution of the series has two "light" and one "mixed", the heavy quark being of charge +2/3.

3) [bonus] Use quark-antiquark to build the superpartners of leptons. It fits perfectly with the number of charged leptons (it is the same condition than for down-type quarks) and predicts 12 neutral scalar degrees of freedom, so it predicts right neutrinos too.

Such argument could have happened in the seventies. But the superstring & susy guys had already buried the bootstrap and started to sail towards Planck Scale, the gold pot at the end of the rainbow. Had they being able to predict the third generation and its peculiar light-heavy mix, they had shown that "string methodology" can do predictions.

I don't really understand what you want to say by that. Also I am not familiar of this theory [why would someone use fundamental particles to make a fundamental particle?]. What I know for sure however, is that the way the extra dimensions of the theory are compactified gives the information about the particles you expect to have in your model. The way this compactification occurs however is pretty non-trivial, and it's very difficult to study its geometry.
Also the string theory is not a complete theory. It has several "edges" all of which can be connected to M-Theory which is unknown, because we lack the mathematics for that.
 
  • #49
ChrisVer said:
I don't really understand what you want to say by that.
Well, it was just a anachronistic example, of other path that string theory could have taken in the early seventies.

Yep, nobody is familiar with bootstrap nowadays, and for sure I am not. I understand that it was a set of loose ideas from Chew, the tutor of David Gross if I recall correctly, and that they motivated the study of the S-Matrix looking for some self-consistent solucion, so the name "bootstrap". It is the historic origin of string theory.

ChrisVer said:
The way this compactification occurs however is pretty non-trivial, and it's very difficult to study its geometry.

Here again, my opinion is that there are other directions in compactification. The groupthinking of string theoretists drove them to look for gauge groups first from SO(32) and E8, and later this path was disfavoured and interesecting branes were proposed, but they never took seriously Witten 1981 compactification; in part because Salam et al were unable to get the right spectrum of leptons and fermions, but mostly because effort was diverted elsewhere.
 
  • #50
We have found no evidence whatsoever to support string theory and supersymmetry and to prove that the theory is correct.
Although the "Large Hadron Collider" has found some evidence to support the Higgs boson particle(I think they found a trace of its energy)there would still be along way to proof that the theory is right.But still,if they can find the Higgs particle it is going to be a very big thing in science.
 

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