B Is the case for a Universal Speed Limit experimental or theoretical?

geordief
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...Or even based on logic?

I understand that it is expected that there might be a Universal Speed Limit and that this seems with extremely high probability to coincide with the speed of em transmission in a vacuum.

This is borne out by experimentation and observation.

Are there any other approaches to reaching this conclusion?

Can it be argued that such a speed limit must exist and that the lack of such a speed limit would lead to fundamental contradictions?

Are there physical reasons why relative motion between any two bodies cannot exceed such a limit or is it simply the case that we observe this to be so and "cut our cloth" accordingly?

...and everything then falls into place.

Btw does the existence of this universal speed limit necessitate the invariance of the speed of light (and massless objects)?
 
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The "universal speed limit" is the speed of light - or the speed of EM propagation in a vacuum.
This is an essential part of the Special Theory of Relativity ... and it works!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

It has been around since 1905 and every prediction it has made has been spot on.

It was based on Einstein's insight an logic in trying to resolve measurement issues. One major issue was the result from the Michelson Morley experiments with their interferometer. Light seemed to be traveling at a set speed - but a set speed relative to what? Was it relative to the Sun? If so, we should be able to measure the difference that light travels relative to Earth as the light moves in the same direction of Earth's orbit in comparison with moving in the opposite direction. But no such difference was found. So was the Earth dragging some kind of ether that the light was moving through?
Einstein resolved the issue by coming up with a system where light would be traveling at the speed of light no matter the reference frame of the observer. Given that the speed of light is constant no matter the reference frame, you can logically deduce that that speed is a sort of "Universal Speed limit". BTW: That limit seems to be on the speed at which information can be transmitted from on location to another.

So, with regard to your question: "does the existence of this universal speed limit necessitate the invariance of the speed of light (and massless objects)?": It's the other way around. The invariance of the speed of light was the starting point. From there, it is deduced that that speed forms a limit.
 
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True (it seems) that the invariance of the speed of light was first observed and not posited or expected.

I am trying to imagine a sort of "anti-thought" experiment whereby nobody had even thought to test the speed of light relative to different frames of reference...

Might it have been (at that innocent stage) possible to adopt as an assumption that there must be an upper speed limit and proceed from that assumption?

Is it possible to show without recourse to experimental observation (not ,of course rejecting those observations) that it would lead to contradictions if there was not an upper speed limit?

(I was previously under the impression that this would "cause all things to happen at the same time" but have been disabused of this belief.)

Are there any good reasons why there really must be an upper speed limit or is it simply the case that we have observed it to be so and that is the end of the matter?

Might it even be the case that in one of the hypothetical parallel or other universes that there might not be an upper speed limit and things would just proceed there along those lines?
 
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geordief said:
Might it have been (at that innocent stage) possible to adopt as an assumption that there must be an upper speed limit and proceed from that assumption?
The assumption of an upper speed limit is equivalent to there being exactly one speed which will be the same for all observers; if you assume either one the other will follow. So as far as the logic is concerned, if you can proceed from one you can proceed just as well from the other. Of course in practice you'll start with assumptions that seem plausible to you, and that's what Einstein did; by 1905 nature had provided many hints that light speed would be invariant so that was the natural starting point.

The best one-word answer to the question in the title is "Both".
 
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geordief said:
Are there any good reasons why there really must be an upper speed limit or is it simply the case that we have observed it to be so and that is the end of the matter?
I feel like this has been answered already; it's both. It is a key component of Special Relativity, and it has been confirmed experimentally.

Sorry, there are no loopholes here.
 
Nugatory said:
The assumption of an upper speed limit is equivalent to there being exactly one speed which will be the same for all observers; if you assume either one the other will follow.
Yes that had actually occurred to me too** ,but only as an intimation.(it felt to me as if ,as one approached the speed limit differences in measurements of relative motion to it might go to zero as a limit -but I was not confident about it)

Is there a way of showing that rigorously to be the case (on its own merits ,not because it is so and not because it is part of Relativity with all its successful predictions?

**yesterday I was laid up with a headache and had a bit of time to think on my own when it eased.
 
geordief said:
Yes that had actually occurred to me too** ,but only as an intimation.(it felt to me as if ,as one approached the speed limit differences in measurements of relative motion to it might go to zero as a limit -but I was not confident about it)

Is there a way of showing that rigorously to be the case (on its own merits ,not because it is so and not because it is part of Relativity with all its successful predictions?

**yesterday I was laid up with a headache and had a bit of time to think on my own when it eased.
Please Check out the link I provided. It has links to papers showing from pure symmetry considerations, there are only two possibilities: an infinite invariant speed (Newtonian physics) or a finite invariant speed (SR). Experiment has shown the latter.
 
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PAllen said:
Please Check out the link I provided. It has links to papers showing from pure symmetry considerations, there are only two possibilities: an infinite invariant speed (Newtonian physics) or a finite invariant speed (SR). Experiment has shown the latter.
Thanks very much . I will have a look.
 
  • #10
geordief said:
Is there a way of showing that rigorously to be the case (on its own merits ,not because it is so and not because it is part of Relativity with all its successful predictions?
That's how Relativity was derived, but every line of logic has to start with some assumptions. Nothing is ever fully from scratch.
 
  • #11
russ_watters said:
I feel like this has been answered already; it's both. It is a key component of Special Relativity, and it has been confirmed experimentally.

Sorry, there are no loopholes here.

As an aside, what constitutes a loophole? A material object cannot move through space faster than light but a patch of space itself can and it can in theory carry an object along (the Alcubierre 'Warp Drive' concept). Also, the 'wormhole' concept would allow an object to circumvent the universal speed limit. The universe as a whole apparently violated it during its inflationary period. Entanglement seems to violate it. Aren't these loopholes in a way?
 
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  • #12
bob012345 said:
As an aside, what constitutes a loophole? A material object cannot move through space faster than light but a patch of space itself can and it can in theory carry an object along (the Alcubierre 'Warp Drive' concept). Also, the 'wormhole' concept would allow an object to circumvent the universal speed limit. The universe as a whole apparently violated it during its inflationary period. Entanglement seems to violate it. Aren't these loopholes in a way?
First, the topic was special relativity, not general, so that excludes all your examples except entanglement. Further, most physicists do not view entanglement as a loophole because neither mass/energy nor information travel faster than c.

As to GR, cosmological recession rates are fundamentally distinct from relative velocity. In GR, relative velocity for separated objects is ambiguous, but still less than c even during inflation.

Finally, while GR does allow alcubierre drives and wormholes, there are good reasons to believe they cannot exist in our universe (the degree of violation of energy conditions required, and that either actually existing means closed timelike curves are also possible and accessible).
 
  • #13
bob012345 said:
As an aside, what constitutes a loophole? A material object cannot move through space faster than light but a patch of space itself can and it can in theory carry an object along (the Alcubierre 'Warp Drive' concept). Also, the 'wormhole' concept would allow an object to circumvent the universal speed limit. The universe as a whole apparently violated it during its inflationary period. Entanglement seems to violate it. Aren't these loopholes in a way?
I don't want to take this too far off topic, but I agree with you and might have chosen a different word if I'd thought about it more. I tend to see a "loophole" as a way around a limit without breaking a theory. The OP seems to be looking to see if the theory itself might be wrong. A missing piece in its development.
 
  • #14
geordief said:
Are there physical reasons why relative motion between any two bodies cannot exceed such a limit or is it simply the case that we observe this to be so and "cut our cloth" accordingly?
Physically, the mass of an object goes to infinity as it's speed approaches c (as calculated by an observer in the reference frame the speed is in reference to).

Interestingly, the relative motion between two bodies can exceed light speed as observed by another observer. Suppose two ships are traveling virtually at c for convenience away from Earth in opposite directions. While I can't say, and both ships can't say either moves faster than c in any frame of reference, I can say they are moving apart as I see them at a rate of almost 2c. I didn't call it speed but the distance between them is growing faster than light could cover it...according to me.
 
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  • #15
geordief said:
Is it possible to show without recourse to experimental observation (not ,of course rejecting those observations) that it would lead to contradictions if there was not an upper speed limit?

I don't think so. It is only through experiment and observation that we justify Einstein's assumption that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the source. From that, as has already been pointed out in this thread, a universal speed limit follows.
 
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  • #16
PAllen said:
First, the topic was special relativity, not general, so that excludes all your examples except entanglement. Further, most physicists do not view entanglement as a loophole because neither mass/energy nor information travel faster than c.

As to GR, cosmological recession rates are fundamentally distinct from relative velocity. In GR, relative velocity for separated objects is ambiguous, but still less than c even during inflation.

Finally, while GR does allow alcubierre drives and wormholes, there are good reasons to believe they cannot exist in our universe (the degree of violation of energy conditions required, and that either actually existing means closed timelike curves are also possible and accessible).
Thanks, but I thought that the original question was fairly general, it didn't limit the discussion only to SR which was brought up only in the responses.
 
  • #17
bob012345 said:
Physically, the mass of an object goes to infinity as it's speed approaches c.
Even after setting aside the standard objections to the notion of relativistic mass increase, we cannot suggest this as an explanation for the speed limit. The problem is that the relativistic mass increase is a mathematical consequence of the speed limit, so using it to explain the speed limit is circular logic.

Interestingly, the relative motion between two bodies can exceed light speed as observed by another observer. Suppose two ships are traveling virtually at c for convenience away from Earth in opposite directions. While I can't say, and both ships can't say either moves faster than c in any frame of reference, I can say they are moving apart as I see them at a rate of almost 2c. I didn't call it speed but the distance between them is growing faster than light could cover it...according to me.
True, but as you say that change in distance with time isn’t the speed of anything.
 
  • #18
Mister T said:
I don't think so. It is only through experiment and observation that we justify Einstein's assumption that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the source. From that, as has already been pointed out in this thread, a universal speed limit follows.
As the FAQ link I provided earlier shows, there are ways that get close to what the OP wants. You can assume only isotropy, homogeneity, and that physical laws are the same in any inertial frame (without assuming anything about them, e.g. Maxwell or light), and conclude there there must be an invariant speed, with Galilean relativity resulting in the limit of infinite invariant speed. Then, indeed, experiment must choose among these two possibilities.
 
  • #19
bob012345 said:
Interestingly, the relative motion between two bodies can exceed light speed as observed by another observer. Suppose two ships are traveling virtually at c for convenience away from Earth in opposite directions. While I can't say, and both ships can't say either moves faster than c in any frame of reference, I can say they are moving apart as I see them at a rate of almost 2c. I didn't call it speed but the distance between them is growing faster than light could cover it...according to me.
It is important to distinguish a separation speed in some coordinates from a relative velocity. Even in SR, there is no upper bound on separation speed (e.g. if you set up cosmological type coordinates in special relativity you get a separation speed = recession rate in these coordinates that can be any multiple of c at all). The same is true of separation speeds = recession rate in GR.

Meanwhile, relative velocity is the comparison of one object speed to the the other, as if either was at rest. As I'm sure you know, this is always less than c in SR, e.g. the relative velocity corresponding to two objects moving .9c apart in some frame is about .994c. This operation is unambiguous in SR because parallel transport of vectors is path independent, so you can unambiguously bring vectors together and compare them (the vectors being 4-velocities). In GR, parallel transport of vectors is path dependent, but no matter what path you use, you still have a relative velocity of less than c - you just can't pick which one.

The more interesting notion of FTL is beating a light signal. Cosmology provides no example of a body outracing a light ray from some start event to some destination world line.

Wormoles and albubierre drive do provide and example of winning such a race by virtue of 'shortcuts' through spacetime. Even in alcubierre drive, the body inside a warp bubble is not locally outracing light, and its relative velocity to some outside observer remains less than c (essentially because every possible parallel transport path crosses the bubble), but compared to light following an a altogether different path to some common ending world line, the drive gets there first. Ultimately this is all because in GR there can be multiple lightlike geodesics from a starting event to a given world line (destination). In normal cases (e.g. gravitational lensing), this provides no apparent shortcuts, but in exotic cases, it does.
 
  • #20
PAllen said:
It is important to distinguish a separation speed in some coordinates from a relative velocity. Even in SR, there is no upper bound on separation speed (e.g. if you set up cosmological type coordinates in special relativity you get a separation speed = recession rate in these coordinates that can be any multiple of c at all). The same is true of separation speeds = recession rate in GR.

Meanwhile, relative velocity is the comparison of one object speed to the the other, as if either was at rest. As I'm sure you know, this is always less than c in SR, e.g. the relative velocity corresponding to two objects moving .9c apart in some frame is about .994c. This operation is unambiguous in SR because parallel transport of vectors is path independent, so you can unambiguously bring vectors together and compare them (the vectors being 4-velocities). In GR, parallel transport of vectors is path dependent, but no matter what path you use, you still have a relative velocity of less than c - you just can't pick which one.

The more interesting notion of FTL is beating a light signal. Cosmology provides no example of a body outracing a light ray from some start event to some destination world line.

Wormoles and albubierre drive do provide and example of winning such a race by virtue of 'shortcuts' through spacetime. Even in alcubierre drive, the body inside a warp bubble is not locally outracing light, and its relative velocity to some outside observer remains less than c (essentially because every possible parallel transport path crosses the bubble), but compared to light following an a altogether different path to some common ending world line, the drive gets there first. Ultimately this is all because in GR there can be multiple lightlike geodesics from a starting event to a given world line (destination). In normal cases (e.g. gravitational lensing), this provides no apparent shortcuts, but in exotic cases, it does.

Thanks for expanding your earlier answers. I wasn't aware of the GR perspective of separation speeds. BTW, I've always wondered, if an Alcubierre warp bubble carrying a ship crosses paths with a material object, I assume it's going to be a real bad day for those inside the ship? In other words, the bubble doesn't push objects out of the way does it?
 
  • #21
bob012345 said:
Thanks for expanding your earlier answers. I wasn't aware of the GR perspective of separation speeds. BTW, I've always wondered, if an Alcubierre warp bubble carrying a ship crosses paths with a material object, I assume it's going to be a real bad day for those inside the ship? In other words, the bubble doesn't push objects out of the way does it?
Actually, a real bad day for both. Stopping a warp bubble near a planet would vaporize the planet.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1202.5708
From the conclusion:

"any people at the destination would be gamma ray and high energy particle blasted into oblivion"
 
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  • #22
russ_watters said:
The OP seems to be looking to see if the theory itself might be wrong. A missing piece in its development.

Didn't think I was questioning the theory (I don't have the basic mastery to do that)

Apologise if I gave that impression
 
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  • #23
geordief said:
Didn't think I was questioning the theory (I don't have the basic mastery to do that)
There is however, sometimes, a small distinction that needs to be made, that

involves the actual meaning of the term. . . speed of light. . :smile:One-way speed of light - Wikipedia
.
 
  • #24
OCR said:
There is, sometimes, a small distinction that needs to be made, that involves the actual

meaning of the term. . . speed of light. . :smile:One-way speed of light - Wikipedia
.
True, but there are so many reasons to expect isotropy of physical laws, it is in practice, absurd to consider anisotropy of the speed of light. Allowing it while matching all experiment is indeed possible, but almost every equation in physics then becomes more complex. In modern symmetry focused physics, isotropy is taken as an assumption. This would be questioned only if it led to complexity rather than simplification.
 
  • #25
geordief said:
...Or even based on logic?
You need some premises to derive conclusions using logic.
 
  • #26
A.T. said:
You need some premises to derive conclusions using logic.
Yes I appreciate your point.There is a temptation to expect logic to work,as it were in a vacuum.

It reminds me of Relativity which needs two FORs to apply **and where the origin of radiation may be inconsequential ( in measuring its speed for example).

Logical reasoning ,on the other hand is relentlessly attached to its original premise even though we have the illusion that it exists in its own right.

I am just making an analogy -not drawing any consequences.

Your point has undercut one of the bases of my question and I would need to clarify what premise I had in mind.

Interesting that Einstein claimed not to rely on the MM result (very interesting really)

** perhaps a mischarecterization but it is just an analogy.Relativity requires to know one's relationship with what is being observed,I would say.
 
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  • #27
geordief said:
Is it possible to show without recourse to experimental observation (not ,of course rejecting those observations) that it would lead to contradictions if there was not an upper speed limit?
The upper speed limit follows from the Lorentz transformation. The Lorentz factor becomes an imaginary number for speeds higher than the speed of light.
 
  • #28
x-vision said:
The upper speed limit follows from the Lorentz transformation. The Lorentz factor becomes an imaginary number for speeds higher than the speed of light.
It is true that the Lorentz transformations don't make sense for ##v## greater than ##c##, but that doesn't mean that the upper speed limit follows from them.

In fact, it's the other way around: the Lorentz transformations are derived from the assumption of the invariance of light speed, and this assumption is equivalent to assuming the upper speed limit. Thus, the imaginary numbers that appear in the Lorentz transformations when plug in values of ##v## greater than speed of light aren't proving anything. They're just reminding us that we started with the assumption that faster than light travel is impossible.

To derive the speed limit logically, it's most natural to follow the same path that Einstein did in 1905, starting with the assumption of lightspeed invariance.
 
  • #29
PAllen said:
Actually, a real bad day for both. Stopping a warp bubble near a planet would vaporize the planet.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1202.5708
From the conclusion:

"any people at the destination would be gamma ray and high energy particle blasted into oblivion"
Well, we don't typically stand on the tracks when a train comes. I'm sure a sufficiently advanced civilization could deal with it. Thanks.
 
  • #30
Nugatory said:
It is true that the Lorentz transformations don't make sense for ##v## greater than ##c##, but that doesn't mean that the upper speed limit follows from them.

In fact, it's the other way around: the Lorentz transformations are derived from the assumption of the invariance of light speed, and this assumption is equivalent to assuming the upper speed limit. Thus, the imaginary numbers that appear in the Lorentz transformations when plug in values of ##v## greater than speed of light aren't proving anything. They're just reminding us that we started with the assumption that faster than light travel is impossible.

To derive the speed limit logically, it's most natural to follow the same path that Einstein did in 1905, starting with the assumption of lightspeed invariance.

Did Einstein actually derive what value that the speed of light had to have independent of measured data? Didn't it come out of the Maxwell equations first as a consequence of the properties of space?
 
  • #31
bob012345 said:
Did Einstein actually derive what value that the speed of light had to have independent of measured data?
No, but he did assume that whatever it was, it was invariant; and that assumption was motivated by Maxwell's equations of electricity and magnetism. At a somewhat handwavy level, we can say that two observers moving relative to one another in a vacuum shouldn't see different laws of E&M, and if they're using the same laws of E&M then the electromagnetic waves predicted by these laws should behave the same for both of them.

As an aside... it turns out (although this was not recognized until many decades later) that if there is an invariant speed it doesn't make sense to try measuring or calculating it. Instead we can take advantage of its invariance to define our units, and that's we now do. The meter is defined to be 1/299792458 of the distance that light travels in one second so ##c## necessarily is exactly 299792458 meters per second. If I tried measuring and got any other result that would just tell me that one or both of my clock and meter stick need to be recalibrated.
 
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  • #32
Nugatory said:
No, but he did assume that whatever it was, it was invariant; and that assumption was motivated by Maxwell's equations of electricity and magnetism. At a somewhat handwavy level, we can say that two observers moving relative to one another in a vacuum shouldn't see different laws of E&M, and if they're using the same laws of E&M then the electromagnetic waves predicted by these laws should behave the same for both of them.

As an aside... it turns out (although this was not recognized until many decades later) that if there is an invariant speed it doesn't make sense to try measuring or calculating it. Instead we can take advantage of its invariance to define our units, and that's we now do. The meter is defined to be 1/299792458 of the distance that light travels in one second so ##c## necessarily is exactly 299792458 meters per second. If I tried measuring and got any other result that would just tell me that one or both of my clock and meter stick need to be recalibrated.

Thanks. Since you need both a clock and a stick to measure it, don't you need some other independent metric? Like the radius of a hydrogen atom for instance?
 
  • #33
bob012345 said:
Thanks. Since you need both a clock and a stick to measure it, don't you need some other independent metric? Like the radius of a hydrogen atom for instance?
You can define the meter using the distance between two scratches on an artifact and then measure the speed of light in meters per second.

Or you can define the meter in terms of the speed of light, measure the distance between the two scratches in light-seconds and convert to meters. The point is that the latter is our current and preferred practice.
 
  • #34
jbriggs444 said:
You can define the meter using the distance between two scratches on an artifact and then measure the speed of light in meters per second.

Or you can define the meter in terms of the speed of light, measure the distance between the two scratches in light-seconds and convert to meters. The point is that the latter is our current and preferred practice.
In either case you have one invariant quantity, a speed, so to convert it to a distance you need an independent definition for a second. You can't define both a meter and a second from c.
 
  • #35
bob012345 said:
In either case you have one invariant quantity, a speed, so to convert it to a distance you need an independent definition for a second. You can't define both a meter and a second from c.
Right. And we have an independent definition for the second.
 
  • #36
You might be interested in this. It describes how some very natural assumptions lead to a velocity addition law that implies a single maximum velocity. And the fact that the velocity of light is constant in any inertially moving reference frame forces its speed to be the maximum speed.
 
  • #37
FactChecker said:
You might be interested in this. It describes how some very natural assumptions lead to a velocity addition law that implies a single maximum velocity. And the fact that the velocity of light is constant in any inertially moving reference frame forces its speed to be the maximum speed.
Thanks,yes I am. It is one of the links on the page PAllen suggested I look at on post#5 of this thread.

I am working my way very slowly through it and am hopeful about it .

Actually I was also interested in how the velocity addition law might play into this so I am pleased that it is discussed there in the way you are suggesting.
 
  • #38
geordief said:
Actually I was also interested in how the velocity addition law might play into this
That's just another consequence of the Lorentz transforms. Since they are linear, for some pair of events separated by coordinate difference ##(\Delta t,\Delta x)## we can write$$
\begin{eqnarray*}
\Delta x'&=&\gamma\left(\Delta x-v\Delta t\right)\\
\Delta t'&=&\gamma\left(\Delta t-\frac v{c^2}\Delta x\right)
\end{eqnarray*}$$Assuming that there is a timelike inertial worldline that connects the two events then ##u=\Delta x/\Delta t## is its velocity in the original frame and ##u'=\Delta x'/\Delta t'## is its velocity in the primed frame. Thus$$\frac{\Delta x'}{\Delta t'}=\frac{\Delta x-v\Delta t}{\Delta t- v\Delta x/c^2}$$The left hand side is ##u'##, and dividing top and bottom of the right hand side by ##\Delta t## gives you the velocity transformation law.
 
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  • #39
PAllen said:
Please Check out the link I provided. It has links to papers showing from pure symmetry considerations, there are only two possibilities: an infinite invariant speed (Newtonian physics) or a finite invariant speed (SR). Experiment has shown the latter.

Thanks for that link .It was very much what I was looking for.

Sadly the maths may be a little beyond me for now and so I will not attempt to finish this admittedly short and digestible piece. Still I wonder if you could just explain a little bit this next section to me ?

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0302045.pdf"
Suppose we now displace the rod such that its end which used to be at x1 is now at
the point x1 + h. Its length in the frame S should not be affected by its position on
the x-axis by virtue of the principle of homogeneity of space, so that its other end
should now be at the point x2 + h. In the frame S′, its ends will be at the points
X(x2 + h, t, v) and X(x1 + h, t, v). However, homogeneity of space implies that the
length of the rod should not be affected in the frame S′ as well, so that

l′ = X(x2 + h, t, v) − X(x1 + h, t, v).The problem I have with this is it seems to be saying that the length of the rod in the primed frame is the same as that in the unprimed frame .I was under the impression the the lengths of bodies in moving frames were indeed shortened in the direction of motion .

I am obviously wrong . What is my mistake?


(I won't be pestering you any more about this as it is clearly for me to bone up a bit on the partial differential equation section and the notation used etc before (if ever) I can make it through to the end.
 
  • #40
geordief said:
The problem I have with this is it seems to be saying that the length of the rod in the primed frame is the same as that in the unprimed frame .
It's saying just that moving the rod doesn't change its length - not that a moving rod doesn't change length. So if I measure the length of my bedroom by repeatedly placing a meter rule along one wall, the ruler has the same length each time I put it down (moved along the wall), although ultra-precise measurements might show that its length varied while I was in the process of lifting it up and putting it down again.

He then goes on to point out that this applies just as much in a moving frame. So if one end of a rod is at ##X(x_1,t,v)## (knowing the answer, we will eventually see that ##X(x,t,v)=\gamma(x-vt)##) and the other is at ##X(x_2,t,v)## then the difference (which isn't necessarily the length, but is related to it) ought to be the same even if you displace the rod by some distance ##h## (or use another identical rod offset by a distance ##h##) and repeat the process.
 
  • #41
PAllen said:
True, but there are so many reasons to expect isotropy of physical laws, it is in practice, absurd to consider anisotropy of the speed of light. Allowing it while matching all experiment is indeed possible, but almost every equation in physics then becomes more complex. In modern symmetry focused physics, isotropy is taken as an assumption. This would be questioned only if it led to complexity rather than simplification.

I think the one of the easiest to understand arguments for isotropy is to note that if light is non-isotorpic then so are other particles such as electron beams. The argument is that there is a limiting speed for particles that we observer experimentally in particle accelerators that is equal to "c". So if "c" is anisotropic and the speed of particles approaches the limit "c" for high enough energies (which we observe experimentally), we need to also conclude that the speed of high energy particle beams is also anisotropic.

) demonstrates the principle of a limting speed with a linear particle accelerators. There is also a paper to go along with the youtube video, for those who wish to look iup the peer reviewed source, though the video is more accessible IMO.

I think the argument becomes even more compelling when one tries to puzzle out how relativistic particle beams can be stored in circular storage rings, yet (if we assume non-isotropy) have different speeds depending on which direction we release said beams.

Basically, if light is anisotropic, so must everything else be, with particle beams that move essentially at "c" being the obvious example, one which we have a lot of experimental evidence for.
 
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  • #42
geordief said:
...Or even based on logic?

Actually, even thinking in these terms is rather archaic. Start with the idea that you have a standard euclidean space, x,y,z. Now draw 2 (or more) lines in different directions and find the distances using the pythagorean theorem. How well does that work if you measure the x direction in feet, the y direction in meters and the z direction in fathoms? Not very well, so you have to have a conversion factor. Furthermore, to use the pythagorean theorm you have to define your space as a metric space, so that you know what a right angle is. So, just to do what seems like common sense, you need a lot more than common sense to understand what you are measuring. Euclidean geometry is a space equipped with a metric: ##ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2 +dz^2##. You could extend that to as many dimensions as you wish. In a Gailean universe, time also plays a role but somewhat different. I'll get to that later.

Also, a rotation in the x-y plane for example is given by:

$$dx' = dx \cos\theta - dy \sin\theta$$
$$dy' = dx \sin\theta + dy \cos\theta$$

The angle of rotation is just ##\theta## and ##\theta## can be any value between 0 and ##2\pi##.

Relativity is just the same, except the "pythagorean theorm" (i.e., the metric) contains a minus sign:
$$ds^2 = dt^2 - (dx^2 + dy^2 =dz^2)$$

There is speed of light constant 'c' because like the previous example, we want to measure all quantities using the same units, so here, time is measured in meters. The constant 'c' just converts seconds to meters in the same way that the constant 2.54 converts centimeters to inches. What is really different the minus sign in the "pythagorean theorm" (i.e. metric). If we now rotate in the x-t plane (similarly to the example above for the x-y plane, because of the minus sign we get:

$$dx = dx\cosh\phi - dt\sinh\phi$$
$$dt' = dt\cosh\phi - dx\sinh\phi$$

Due to the minus sign, the trransformation uses hyperbolic functions, not circular functions. However, this means we really aren't talking about a "finite velocity," because the hyperbolic angle ##\phi## corresponding to a hyperbolic rotation in the x-t plane ranges from ##-\infty\ to\ \infty##. The hyperbolic tangent of ##\phi##, however ranges from ##-1\ to\ 1## and if we are using minutes or seconds instead, then we have the more familiar form:
$$(v/c) = tanh\phi$$
So, to say there is an "ultimate speed" and wonder why, is sort of like asking why there is a "maximum rotation" of ##2\pi## to make a complete circle. The answer to both is that it's just the choice of geometry you use to describe physics. Either choice is valid philosophically and logically, but physics discriminates between them by which one agrees with experiments and experiments favor einstein's version of relativity.
I understand that it is expected that there might be a Universal Speed Limit and that this seems with extremely high probability to coincide with the speed of em transmission in a vacuum.
Btw does the existence of this universal speed limit necessitate the invariance of the speed of light (and massless objects)?
All massless objects must travel at 'c'. This is not necessarily true for light. The "phrase" speed of light to mean the velocity 'c' is more of an historical artifact due to what einstein was trying to explain and the general lack of thinking in geometric terms. Einstein was trying to reconcile maxwell's equations with classical mechanics and so he made use of the fact that in maxwell's equations, the speed of light is a constant, independent of frame. Hence the idea that the speed of light has something to do with relativity seems to be pervasive, even though it need not be.

Around 1914, Proca demonstrated a perfectly relativistic theory of electromagnetim in which light propagated just like any other massive particle, the consequence being that light was no longer massless. But, it was perfectly consistent with relativity. The upshot of this is that relativity is the geometry of thr universe and whether or not light is massless and propagets at 'c' or if it has a mass and propagates like anything else with mass, is more properly reserved for theories of electromagnetism. If the photon has a rest mass, it is known from experiment to be less than around ##10^{-17} eV##

Finally, the choices that have potential to describe the universe have been Galilean relativity and special relativity (neglecting gravity). From those two possibilities, you can deduce the phyical laws of mechanics. A priori, thee is no reason to choose one over the other, so the reason for choosing the geometry of the universe to be special (or general relativity) over Galilean relativity is a matter that only experiment can distinguish and so it is experiment that tells us that of the two choices we have, (einstein) relativity is the correct choice.

It's also possible to write galilean relativity using time as a coordinate, but it becomes somewhat less transparent on how you end up with classical mechanics, so, I will skip over that.
 
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