Is the Lorentz force conservative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether the Lorentz force, which acts on a current-carrying wire in a magnetic field, is a conservative force. Participants explore the definitions of conservative forces, the implications of magnetic and electric fields, and the conditions under which forces are considered conservative or non-conservative.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the Lorentz force is not conservative because it depends on the velocity of charged particles, suggesting that different velocities lead to different forces, preventing the establishment of a potential energy surface.
  • Others propose that the Lorentz force could be considered conservative under certain conditions, particularly when discussing the work done between two points being independent of the path taken.
  • A few participants highlight the distinction between the electric and magnetic components of the Lorentz force, noting that while the electric part is conservative, the magnetic part is not, leading to confusion about the overall classification of the Lorentz force.
  • Some participants mention that definitions of conservative forces vary, with one definition focusing on whether work done depends on the path or just the endpoints, while another emphasizes the force's dependence on position.
  • There are claims that all fundamental forces are conservative, with the Lorentz force being a manifestation of the electromagnetic force, which is generally considered conservative.
  • Participants discuss the implications of Maxwell's equations, particularly regarding the curl and divergence of electric and magnetic fields, and how these relate to the conservativeness of the forces involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on whether the Lorentz force is conservative. Multiple competing views remain, with participants presenting differing definitions and interpretations of what constitutes a conservative force.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of conservative forces and the conditions under which the Lorentz force can be classified as such. The discussion reveals a lack of agreement on the relevance of potential energy in the context of the Lorentz force.

  • #31
This is a bit subtle, and I think there are already many answers to your question. So here are my 2cts in addition.

Usually in classical mechanics an external force is called "conservative", if it only depends on the position of the particle and if it has a scalar potential, i.e., if it is of the form
\vec{F}(\vec{x})=-\vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x}).

An interaction force between two particles is called conservative, if there exists a potential U(\vec{x}_1-\vec{x}_2) such that
\vec{F}_{12}=-\vec{\nabla}_1 U=-\vec{\nabla}_2 U=-F_{21}.
The specific dependence on the difference of the position vectors of the two particles is demanded by Newton's 3rd Law ("actio=reactio").

Other posters have already stated the conditions on the force/interaction field(s) that guarantee the existence of a potential and thus the criteria for a force/interaction being conservative.

Examples are the motion of a charged particle in an electrostatic field or the mutual gravitative attraction between bodies (in Newtonian approximation).

This is a pretty limited view on forces, however. E.g., there are nearly no relativistically covariant forces. An exception is the motion in an electrostatic field. Here, the equation of motion is governed by the more general Lorentz force, including the interaction with the magnetic field, but this force is not conservative in the above given sense, because the force depends on the velocity of the particle and not only on its position.

Nevertheless the conservation of energy holds for static (and only static!) electromagnetic fields, as can be easily proven by taking the line integral of the force along the particle's trajectory under the influence of the Lorentz force. It turns out that only the electric field does work on the particle while the magnetic field only changes the direction of the particle's trajectory. Indeed the power is
P=\vec{v} \cdot \vec{F}=\vec{v} \cdot q \left (\vec{E}+\frac{\vec{v}}{c} \times \vec{B} \right )=q \vec{v} \cdot \vec{E}.
The total energy of the particle is given by
\mathcal{E}=\frac{m c^2}{\sqrt{1-\vec{v}^2/c^2}}+q \Phi,
where \Phi is the potential of the electrostatic field,
\vec{E}=-\vec{\nabla} \Phi.
 

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